OLD TOPIC - New Posts. FAILED and FIRE HAZARD Breakers—— WARNING! HVAC fishy smell. WARNING!

[Dan Lane]

A couple of months ago, I posted a problem about my rear AC having a fishy smell.  I received suggestions to clean the fins, the filter, etc.  Did all of that and it fixed the problem temporarily.  I took the coach out this weekend and it smelled again.  My wife did a search on the internet for HVAC fishy smells and found a site that discussed the problem with house AC’s.  The site has 10 years of discussions, 31 pages, and they all said the same thing: the fishy smell is caused by an electrical problem.  When an electrical part overheats, it releases a chemical that smells like bad fish.  Since the smell was coming from the rear AC, I searched back in the bedroom and the smell was coming from the circuit breaker panel.  I touched it and it was very hot.  I turned off the generator and all of the breakers.

I had an electrician look at it today, and all of the breakers had heat damage, some were significantly melted.  The two breaker panels were also damaged and partially melted.  Had my wife not found this info on the internet, the coach would have at some point caught fire.  I will try to attach some photos that show the damage.

I had never heard of this problem and, from the articles she found, many electricians are also unaware of it.

[Larry H]

Thanks so much for posting.

[Dr4Film]

YIKES!

Would you surmise that this damage might have been caused from vibration, shaking and moving that is common when running the roads? If so, it supports the strong recommendations by this group to check all connections and circuit breakers yearly or more often.

[pulsarjab]

You may have a problem with loosing your neutral on 50 amp. Could be in a park where you plugged in or could be in your house wiring. I would check the inverter and the transfer switch for loose connections. I had a loose neutral in the transfer switch which took out the microwave and both TVs, and the inverter/charger. I was fortunate to have the computer equipment plugged in to surge protector that saved the computer. I now have a Progressive surge unit installed.

[Moonwink]

What is the brand of those breakers?  Have you researched to see if there's a recall on them?  They certainly should have tripped long before getting that hot. 

[trailmug]

I would be interested to know if the breakers are makes/models that are listed for the load center. A lot of stab-on breakers will "fit" without being intended for a use with a particular panel, and improper application is fairly common. I expect the fishy smell is the ABS out-gassing.

The one I can read appears to be a TB series.

Edited September 9, 2020 by trailmug

[Ivan K]

We had a 100 amp breaker melting up in our house main box feeding the shop few years after construction completion and inspection. It did not trip and I don't think it was overloaded because I have a lesser breaker in the shop panel and never tripped either. To me, the smell felt like a dead animal and for a while I suspected that something died inside the wall until I finally found it. It was a dual breaker but the only one that failed from many, you seem to have more of them failed the same way at the same time and that's weird. Maybe heat transfer through the mounting rail?

[quick_tox]

Square D breakers.  very cheap and readily available at HD.  Take one with you to make sure you get the right type. Is the aluminum bus damaged?  the whole back panel can be replaced cheaply.  I've never heard burnt insulation described as fishy odor.

[Dan Lane]

They are Square D and so is the panel.  I called a local dealer to find out if I could replace just the terminal blocks and he said I had to replace the panel and gave the part number to me, said he would order it for me.  Went the Monaco site, put in the part number and ordered for $50 less than what the dealer wanted.  I should have it next week.  BTW, the part number is 10106231 for the one I have.

[trailmug]

2 hours ago, Dan Lane said:

They are Square D and so is the panel.  I called a local dealer to find out if I could replace just the terminal blocks and he said I had to replace the panel and gave the part number to me, said he would order it for me.  Went the Monaco site, put in the part number and ordered for $50 less than what the dealer wanted.  I should have it next week.  BTW, the part number is 10106231 for the one I have.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the main breaker's label says CAT NO: TB250 which would make it a Thomas & Betts breaker. Square D would be QO or HOM in this form factor.

Edited September 10, 2020 by trailmug

[Dr4Film]

Don,

In your 2001 coach, is this the Intellitec EMS Load sharing panel where the breakers and buss bar were destroyed? Based on your photos it appears to be but just wanted to ask to be sure.

The breakers inside my EMS panel are all Cutler-Hammer circuit breakers and the secondary house panel adjacent to the brown EMS panel is a Square D Panel with Square D circuit breakers.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Dr4Film

[quick_tox]

Right side of the main breaker failed, resulting in high resistance, resulting in heat, which cooked the bus and breakers plugged into it. That's my guess.  You're lucky you caught it in time.

[Dragracer]

Sorry to dig up a old thread but my AC circuit breakers are getting hot both on shore power & with the genset too. I pulled the panel & checked the connections & all are tight & look good. I did a search for "circuit breakers getting hot" & got 20 results & this is the only one came up kinda related to my issue. Dan Lane if your still on here did the Square D 10106231 work for you?

[Tom Cherry]

Thanks for the post.  Don’t apologize for going back and adding to an old post.  That give the history.  We really recommend, as the guidelines stipulate, that after the search, and a new topic is required, that any past or “close” topics be posted so there is a background.

You did it RIGHT….thanks.

As to my theory on the original post.  We have had a few like this…but none to the extent in the pictures.  The age rules out the newer Intellitec EMS panels.

From experience over the years in industrial maintenance, as well as a friendship with a smart electrical contractor that did residential and commercial, there was a problem in the panel.  The “bonded” or factory manufactured “rail(s)” got hot.  Now…was that s Poor connection between the incoming #6 connections?  Maybe? Was there a defect in the panel? Maybe? 

We HAVE had many instances where the brekaers will lose the spring tension in the “gripping” clips. They will droop and sag.  The fix…a new breaker…or if there was evidence of corrosion on the panel mating tag, using something like NoAlox (a toothpaste with some metallic fines) to improve the connection often works.

When the AC breakers start to fail that means the starting amperage was hitting maybe 25 amps.  Normal FLA is in the say, 13 - 17….depending on the age and use.  But the surge or starting amps skyrocket.  The breaker has a “tolerance” factor…so it doesn’t immediately trip.  But the more heat and more starts, the weaker the spring tension clips becomes.  It then is like the perfect storm.

I’m sure or HOPE folks comment today.  I edited the title to get a little more “press”

 

[jacwjames]

In 2015 I started having trouble with the breaker for my front AC tripping.  While on a 30 amp circuit I was able to monitor the Amp Load Center for the Intellitec EMS system and saw on start up the amps were going way up, and if the breaker didn't trip the AC was still pulling higher amps then the rear AC.  When we got home I decided to dig into the problem and pulled the shroud off the AC and checked the motor, it was almost froze up and could barely turn it by hand.  Replaced the motor, $125, and that solved my problem.

In 2021 started having similar problem with rear AC and decided to replace motor but none to be found so I took a major step and replaced both AC's and the thermostat.  +20 year old AC's seemed like good life but I wanted dependable AC's, my wife travels with dogs and they need cold air.  $3000. 

[Dragracer]

After searching "circuit breakers getting hot" & finding this old post & reading that the hot breakers can put off a foul smell it all started adding up. When my breakers get hot I was getting a smell like a dead rat. Today I removed one of the T&B breakers & apparently, they have been discontinued. I was able to match it up with a common GE breaker. The GE breaker fit like a glove. I attached a few pics & you can see where the T&B breaker has been getting hot. While I was in the breaker box I rechecked all the connections & all were tight. The bar the breaker makes contact was clean & in good condition. You can see in the pic with the cove back on the 2 GE breakers are practically identical to the T&B's.  Currently I have both AC's on & so far the breakers haven't got hot. This should be good information if anyone needs to replace a T&B breaker. I sourced the GE's from my local Home Depot. Probably going to go ahead & replace all the T&B's with GE's. Thanks again to Monacoers.org for all the help.

[Dr4Film]

Never heard of T&B circuit breakers being used in that Intellitec Panel. In fact this is the first I even heard of such a circuit breaker.

That same panel in my previous Windsor used Cutler-Hammer CB's.