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MONACO GOOF - POTENTIAL LIPPERT HYDRAULIC FAILURE SLIDES and/or JACKS>>>> IMPORTANT


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12 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

 

Fascinating.  It appears that in 2009, Monaco added the BIG Printed Circuit Breaker panel in the FRB.  OR you might have it and some well intentioned Assembler decided NOT to mount the breaker in the Front Run Bay and put it way up high and hid it  The Breaker is WATERPROOF (or should be labeled).  As long as it is an 80 Amp Breaker, you are OK.  If not, I STRONGLY urge that you order one from Amazon and correct the problem.  If you ever have a high resistance connection, you will damage the motor.

While you are poking around, I will remove the nut and terminals from the motor.  Tighten or snug up the locking nuts for the studs. I think this was my original problem. Clean and reinstall the terminal cables. I would do the same for the large Trombetta Solenoid also.  It does not have locking nuts as the studs are pressed in.

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3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Fascinating.  It appears that in 2009, Monaco added the BIG Printed Circuit Breaker panel in the FRB.  OR you might have it and some well intentioned Assembler decided NOT to mount the breaker in the Front Run Bay and put it way up high and hid it  The Breaker is WATERPROOF (or should be labeled).  As long as it is an 80 Amp Breaker, you are OK.  If not, I STRONGLY urge that you order one from Amazon and correct the problem.  If you ever have a high resistance connection, you will damage the motor.

While you are poking around, I will remove the nut and terminals from the motor.  Tighten or snug up the locking nuts for the studs. I think this was my original problem. Clean and reinstall the terminal cables. I would do the same for the large Trombetta Solenoid also.  It does not have locking nuts as the studs are pressed in.

I wish I understood DC like I understand AC 110-600 volt. My 09 Knight hydraulic motor has failed again in Nov 2019 while we were parked and doing nothing. Warranty covered it again and Lippert ended up sending me a free spare. While that was nice, it makes me wonder!!!!

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Perhaps the voltage is low. Measure the DC voltage at the motor while the slide is moving both in and out. I've found several places where the Monaco DC wiring is marginal and undersided wiring is one. 

Since Lipper sent you a free spare my red flag says there is some design issue that they are aware of. Of course it could be that they just send not only replacement motors but free spares. 🙂

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1 hour ago, W7BE_Bob said:

Perhaps the voltage is low. Measure the DC voltage at the motor while the slide is moving both in and out. I've found several places where the Monaco DC wiring is marginal and undersided wiring is one. 

Since Lipper sent you a free spare my red flag says there is some design issue that they are aware of. Of course it could be that they just send not only replacement motors but free spares. 🙂

Granted I will check the voltage. BUT why would the pump motor start up on its own, keep running to the point it drained bats to the point Magnum started screaming like a jet taking off trying to charge bats which alerted me something was wrong while sitting in the living area. Tripped 150 amp resettable breaker and blew 5amp fuse in the lippert brain 🧠 of which Lippert tech said didn’t exist.

Whew!!!!

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3 hours ago, Gary M said:

Granted I will check the voltage. BUT why would the pump motor start up on its own, keep running to the point it drained bats to the point Magnum started screaming like a jet taking off trying to charge bats which alerted me something was wrong while sitting in the living area. Tripped 150 amp resettable breaker and blew 5amp fuse in the lippert brain 🧠 of which Lippert tech said didn’t exist.

Whew!!!!

OK...Lets start at the top.  FIRST.  You have the MONACO GOOF that burned up my motor.  The motor in your hydraulic system (I looked at your manual) is a 65 - 70 Full Load Amp motor.  Monaco, for some unGodly and assinine reason put in a 150 Amp Resettable Circuit breaker.  That needs to be changed.  Now, if you call Lippert, the Tech Support will NOT recommend or state the upstream Protection.  BUT, when I actually talked to a tech support person and told them I was blowing the 150, the answer was WHAT?  Then we looked up the motor and found the specs.  They RECOMMEND 80.  SO, Order one from Amazon.  You will kill (I know... I did) the motor if you allow it to pull upwards of 150 Amps.  That is JOB 1 or the first step.

Next up.  If you look at your pump, odds are it has a ROUND Trombetta Solenoid.  Those are cheap and you can buy them on Amazon for $35.  I posted the PN.  The ONLY what that you pump motor works is when the Trombetta is ENERGIZED.  SO....THREE potential problems....

First...there is some CHATTER in the Trombetta and it is closing.  Odds are...NOT.  BUT, it does happen.  These solenoids are pretty BULLET Proof.  IF Lippert replaced the unit under warranty, then they MIGHT have swapped the circuit.  There are only TWO styles of Solenoids.  The Trombetta just applies POWER and the Motor rotates (Clockwise).  The valving (you should only have TWO valves in use or two Pigtails plugged into the valve manifold.  One for the CURB and one for the ROAD.  If you have the ROUND solenoid with an incoming RED and and outgoing black to the motor, then that is the older style.  Lippert, in some models uses a REVERSING Solenoid.  That is more of a rectangular design.  It is easy to spot.  There is ONE incoming line.  There are TWO going to the motor.  The motor REVERSE (remember that when you reverse polarity on a DC motor, it runs the OPPOSITE direction.  SO, if you have a Solenoid with THREE cables (one input and the OTHER two tied to the motor, then you have a Reversing solenoid.  

DOES NOT MATTER.  The solenoid has to have a SIGNAL.  In your case, it comes from the Lippert Controller.  When you push the CURB IN button, then the controller will do one of two things.  If you have the ROUND and Single Contact solenoid, then the motor runs....CLOCKWISE.  The Lippert Valve for the CURB does the switching and the fluid flows one way.  If you push in the CURB OUT...then the Controller sends a signal to the Solenoid (to start the pump) and THEN the valve reverses.  If you have the THREE cable unit, then the motor just REVERSES.  

Bottom LINE.  What triggered the problem.  Many things....COULD.  First, if the switch (in/out) on either slide was pushed...or started to make contact, then INSTANTLY, the SOLENOID engages and the pump starts.  BUT...If that happened, then WHY did not the VALVES move.  If the switch is OK, then the LCI controller must have had a HICCUP.  The pump will NOT start without a signal from the LCI Controller.  If you DISCONNECT the wires the Solenoid and push the either switch, the Valves will cycle, but the Solenoid will NOT energize.

I can't tell you WHERE the problem is...but if in the middle of the night the pump motor starts, then there is probably a BAD switch (highly unlikely that is making the circuit) OR the Controller has gone flaky.  The Fluorescent lights have been known to put our RFI and mess up the Intellitec.  Could they mess up the controller?  Who KNOWS.  The signal from the switch is PROBABLY positive...so it is NOT a ground issue.

Wish I could help more.... BUT you have probably overheated and damaged the motor.  BEEN THERE....I have a NEW pump assembly sitting in the foyer and it will be installed next week.  The motor is almost $1,000.  The whole Pump, Motor, valves, Reservior, etc. is $1600.  I bought the who new unit.  The labor to just install and set up the system would have pushed the total repair (new Motor and Solenoid) above $1200.  Why spend $1200 when you can buy a new unit for $1600.  NOW there are cheaper motors out there....if you google, IRV2 has a source for around $400.  BUT, I have NOT had success with Aftermarket motors for Lippert.

Wish I could help MORE>  BTW....Lipper MIGHT give you a NEW (no Cost) controller if you order.

 

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Thanks Tom for the info. Another interesting project to check out. 

 

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get RID of the circuit breaker before you mess up the motor.  THEN call Lippert.  Get the NUMBER off your unit.  GO TO PARTS FIRST.  Then get them to give you the INTERNAL Lippert number.  Since you have a replacement unit, you may NOT have the OEM number.  That was my issue.  If you have the REAL or the Replacement Lippert PN for the Hydraulic unit, then Tech Support can help you.  If you look on the build sheet....that is the OEM number.  Your unit probably has a DIFFERENT PN...

Good Luck

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9 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

get RID of the circuit breaker before you mess up the motor.  THEN call Lippert.  Get the NUMBER off your unit.  GO TO PARTS FIRST.  Then get them to give you the INTERNAL Lippert number.  Since you have a replacement unit, you may NOT have the OEM number.  That was my issue.  If you have the REAL or the Replacement Lippert PN for the Hydraulic unit, then Tech Support can help you.  If you look on the build sheet....that is the OEM number.  Your unit probably has a DIFFERENT PN...

Good Luck

Thankyou again! 
U r a wealth of of excellent info.

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  • 3 weeks later...

EPOLOGUE

Ok.  NEW Lippert Slide Motor (Pump, Tank, Valves, etc) System was installed.  I did the following to avoid future issues.

  • Installed a Supplemental Ground. Ran the old Ground UP to the Dash Chassis Stud (right up from the pump). Then terminated or attached it there. Made us a new 1/0 Cable and ran it directly to the Pump. The original ground was from a stud on the Curb side that was used for the Generator Start and the Hydraulics.  GOOD GROUND NOW.
  • Batteries were a little low, so I measured some voltages with the Genny running. Magnum was kicking out 95 Amp per the meter. Had some very interesting readings.  
  • I have TWO sources of power for the Lippert via a 300 Amp Blue Seas Selector Switch. The Chassis Battery was delivering maybe 0.50 VDC higher.  However, the amperage was really high.  Running in the 130 - 140 A range. The Rated FLA of the motor is 65.  NOT GOOD.  However, as the genny kept bringing up the batteries, the big slide ran smoother and faster. Drove it home and let it charge for a few days

SO...I thought about it and also talked to Frank M. Decided to run some more tests.  SO, Here are the results.

  • Decided NOT to mess with the original House Feed. MAYBE it is OK and MAYBE NOT. The Chassis is FINE, so that will be my primary source. I also figured out that IF IF I ever need to have a FULL ON Battery Boost, I have it in the Blue Seas as one of the positions is BOTH.  
  • Ran some tests with the Chassis feed and fully charged batteries.  Once the surface charge is off the Chassis and the Genny is kicking in the amps, the slides still move nicely. Ran voltage tests (for drop) at several points. Getting less than 0.3-0.4 VDC Drop. The cable Delta V says to expect up to 0.8 VDC so I am pleased.
  • Interestingly...the Main or BIG or HEAVY Slide is moving along nicely and it is pulling in the 80 - 100 Amp range. That was where it was when I first had the issues and when it died, it was well over 150. SO, probably the damage to the motor kicked up the Amperage
  • SO....LEAVE IT ALONE.  IT WORKS.  Have provisions for BOTH Batteries if needed. 
  • Talked to Frank. We concluded....the 80 Amp Resettable Circuit Breaker is holding and has not kicked out and I have seen at least 140 Amps on my clamp on meter.  The slides are moving nicely and evenly and smoothly.  SO....only two things to do....KEEP USING THE CHASSIS and also, for backup, do TWO THINGS.

I have ALWAYS been suspicious of the Lippert OEM connection or jumper from the Solenoid to the Positive.  Today, I decided to "Rectify that".  I also am UNDECIDED about the upstream protection sizing.  One of Monaco's prints actually lists the 80 Amp breaker that Lippert recommends for the 65 FLA motor. BUT, I am measuring, for the short term, up to say 140...but it is running. Decided on the following...

  • Ordered a 100 Amp Breaker. Will keep as a spare. I have the original 150, but it is a bit "lackadaisical" and I don't trust it.  Will NOT install the 100 A breaker, but keep as a spare. Takes 10 minutes to swap out and you can DISCONNECT power via the Blue Seas switch.
  • Made up a NEW connector for the Motor (from Solenoid).  Pictures included. The original jumper is a #6. It is PUNY. Frank says the voltage drop would be less than 0.05 VDC. BUT, it makes me feel better.
  • BTW...LIPPERT STRIKES AGAIN. The tech at CW made sure that the Negative Motor Lock Nut was tight. I should have had him check the Positive.  I pulled off the old lead and OPPS....loose. Probably NOT an issue, but I THINK that was what killed the motor originally. I tightened the terminal stud and put on the NEW 1/0 jumper and also put an external tooth locking washer in place.

That's IT..... The motor picture shows the puny little jumper.  

 

IMG_1776.JPEG

IMG_1778.JPEG

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It sure would be nice is someone that has a coach like yours with a Lippert pump could measure their pump current draw.  That way we wound know if the high current draw is typical or something else on your coach is causing the problem. 

My thinking is that Monaco undersized the hydraulic pump system to cut corners and save money.  In the meantime, always operate your slides when running the generator or connected to shore power so that batteries are under max voltage to keep the current draw as low as possible.

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Lippertis known for selling junk to the rv manufacturers.  The slide out gear systems are a disaster. The 6th wheel frames have bad welds and the tubing is too small. Steps are also bad. After 08 when the industry was in shambles Lippert bought out many of the part mfrs. Unless you are buying a new Prevost  or other high end coach your unit will be equipped  with Lippert products. Lippert even has warehouses and small sub manufacturing facilities on the same lots of many mfrs. of those cheap pull trailers. Lippert is a one stop supplier. Horrible junk.

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1 hour ago, birdshill123 said:

Lippertis known for selling junk to the rv manufacturers.  The slide out gear systems are a disaster. The 6th wheel frames have bad welds and the tubing is too small. Steps are also bad. After 08 when the industry was in shambles Lippert bought out many of the part mfrs. Unless you are buying a new Prevost  or other high end coach your unit will be equipped  with Lippert products. Lippert even has warehouses and small sub manufacturing facilities on the same lots of many mfrs. of those cheap pull trailers. Lippert is a one stop supplier. Horrible junk.

Maybe.  Monaco had to specify the slide pump and power and such. Lippert was great in finding out what I had and then giving me a substantial discount due to the fact that the original model had design defects. Most of the slide problems that folks, or Camelot folks, have are not in the pump, but in the design of the controls.

Monaco made up a Diode Matrix and had an interface connector. That allowed them (Monaco) to eliminate the cost of a mating LCI Controller. 

I can't get upset with Lippert over this issue. My only complaint, and I will pass it back to them is that they need tighter torque specs on the motor nuts. The motor is probably an outsourced item. I spent 15 plus years as a Manufacturing Engineering Manager and fought proper torqueing of soft subassemblies (like gaskets on a carburetor and thin plastics). The Lippert motor has an insulator due to the fact that the studs protrude through the motor housing. I snugged that up.

The potential is as the motor runs and thermal cycles, the insulating boot or grommet can shrink. I THINK that was what happened to my unit.

No one KNOWS how Monaco designed the hydraulic system. Lippert provided the who assembly from the cylinders, balance or T unit, lines and pump assembly. YES, it could have been about 25% stronger.  BUT, it wasn't and the cost of upgrading to an HWH unit would be in excess of $10K.  

I still rate Lippert as a good vendor. They have provided me with tech support anytime I needed it.....as long as I had the Lippert PN and not the OEM.

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