Koni Shocks

[CapnDean]

so the saga continues.   I called the REV support desk and they gave me some part numbers for the shocks on my coach.  They also offered to sell them to me for almost $200 a pop.   Since it was going to cost me that much I decided to go with Koni shocks.  Koni shocks cross referenced the number for me and of course the Koni replacement came out to be $170 a pop BUT....  Koni shocks that matched that number were EYE on each end shocks.....  My coach has Eye on bottom stem on top.  Koni was able to give me the correct part number for the Eye/Stem shock.  I used that number and crossed to a bilstein which came out to be Bilstein 186605 front and 186612 rear.

I ordered the bilsteins.  $107 each.     I removed the Monroe shocks that I suspect are worn out -  Monroe 557034 on the front and Monroe 557035 on the rear.

Now here's the deal:  The diameter of the bilstein shock is considerably smaller than the monroe's that came off.  The bilstein shock is quite difficult to compress manually.  The old monroe shocks (which are likely worn out) were relatively easy to compress and rather slow to return to full extension.  All 10 compress easy and return gradually, but they do return.

I am wondering if I am going to experience a stiffer ride.  As noted in the original post, the coach rides like its on a cloud and there were no handling problems EXCEPT one instance of really bad porpoising on a really crappy section of interstate.  

Next I decided to make sure that I have installed a suitable replacement shock.....  I googled the Monroe numbers off of the shocks that I took off.  MONROE's website says "Part number returned no results"  several vendors show that shock as "not for sale".    I went to the Bilstein site and of course Bilstein does not have a matching shock listed as a replacement for the monroe.

I find this irritating that I cannot simply go to a shock manufacturer and punch in the part number and get the correct part as a cross reference.  I mean HELL - you can plug in the AC Delco oil filter number and get the correct WIX filter....  I can plug in the Bosch Spark plug and find the suitable Champion plug -  WHY does it have to be so tough?  WHY on Earth MONROE doesn't list the part number for a part that THEY manufacture? (Or manufactured in the past).

If I had not done my homework and hit several forums like this....  I would have ordered the wrong shocks the first time, and paid a premium price for them.

 

For the record:  Bilstein 186605 is the correct fitting front shock absorber for the 2008 Monaco Camelot 42PDQ.  You will need 4 of them.   Bilstein 186612 is the correct fitting rear shock absorber for this coach. You will need 6 of them.  The 2008 Camelot is on the Roadmaster RR10S chassis.   Whether or not this shock makes the RV ride better or worse than the old worn out Monroe 557034 front and Monroe 557035 rear, remains to be seen.     

I punched all this in just in case some other poor soul finds themself searching the forums for the correct shocks for their Camelot.

[throgmartin]

In regards to shocks, as we have discussed here before the Bilstein is the best compromise between the Monroe and the Koni. Provides a nice ride as well as dampening control. Koni's provide a much stiffer ride due to the way it is valved and because of this is harder on the shock mounts.

From a professional standpoint, I much prefer the Bilstein. They have a consistent rebound rate due to the monotube design and are less prone to caviatation. Bilstein and Koni both use high quality fluid and their build spec's and materials are of higher quality.

Shock discussions are sometimes confusing and understanding their purpose is also confusing. Here is a video that gives an explanation on how they work. 

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, CapnDean said:

Whether or not this shock makes the RV ride better or worse than the old worn out Monroe 557034 front and Monroe 557035 rear, remains to be seen.     

 

 I'm betting it's worse  

[CapnDean]

Why you think worse?   Because the shock is stiffer?    I’m thinking that the old wore out shocks weren’t doing anything....

[Happycarz]

For my first post, I will chime in on their shock thread.

The OE Monroes were terrible going over rolling curb on a diagonal unless I slowly crept one wheel at a time.

At 14,000 miles, the Koni's resolved that issue and made road seams and rebound so much better. With the Koni's, until the shock oil got heated up, road seams felt like I had 130 lbs in the tires. But in 3-5 miles all was good. No issues with rolling curbs.

At 65,000 miles, I replaced the Koni's with the Bilsteins, as I was getting excessive extension over bumps. The reason for Bilsteins was that Motorhome Magazine did a comparison test with 4 different brand shocks on the same coach and drove the coach on same test loop. They noted very little difference between the Koni and Bilsteins shocks. Wanting to save a few dollars, I went with the Comfort Bilsteins. Maybe the test driver wasn't driving his own coach as the test coach, maybe he couldnt feel the nuances between the Koni's and Bilsteins. Dunno.

At 69,000 miles, I'm back to fighting rolling curbs and to some degree extensions and rebounds. Therefore, back to Koni's. I only had time to put the fronts on before leaving for two weeks. And thought I might get away with leaving the rears alone. Nope. Go over a rolling curb, or similar, with the fronts, no problem. When the rears roll over it, I fear I might unload the cupboards. And as much weight that I have in rear axle, 21,650lbs, I thought no big deal with the Bilsteins. But I can tell big difference when going over bridge joints and rough roads with the Bilsteins. 

2000 miles later I installed the 4 rear Bilsteins with Koni's and the stars are now aligned. 

Just my experience. But, I’m sensitive to NVH.  Like Shepard steering boxes, X braces, and watts links, some people appreciate them while other have no issues with how their coach handles.

 

 

[David White]

1 hour ago, CapnDean said:

Why you think worse?   Because the shock is stiffer?    I’m thinking that the old wore out shocks weren’t doing anything....

Dean, I think you made the right choice.  The eye/stem Bilstein you used is the same as mine and they provide good control without stiffness. 

[Guest Ray Davis]

2 hours ago, CapnDean said:

Why you think worse?   Because the shock is stiffer?    I’m thinking that the old wore out shocks weren’t doing anything....

Yes, because the shock is stiffer.  I put Bilstein comfort shocks on the front of my coach and they are ok, but I feel like the old shocks were smoother riding overall.

There has been many discussions about shocks and this thread on IRV2 is pretty good.  Be sure to read post #21

Hard bangs over highway cracks - iRV2 Forums

[96 EVO]

Probably because they were doing nothing, Ray.

I replaced my factory Monroe's at about 32,000mi. Compressed one easily with one hand, and smoked a cigarette, watching it expand 😂! 

[vanwill52]

3 hours ago, Ray Davis said:

Yes, because the shock is stiffer.  I put Bilstein comfort shocks on the front of my coach and they are ok, but I feel like the old shocks were smoother riding overall.

BINGO!  An intelligent, HONEST response.  If you want your coach to ride THE SMOOTHEST IT POSSIBLY CAN over expansion joints and tar strips, TAKE YOUR SHOCKS COMPLETELY OFF, as I have done to satisfy my engineering curiosity.   If you want "porpoising" control, install the stiffest shocks you can find...and accept that they will rattle your teeth over small road imperfections.  If you have a grasp of the compromises that the current state of mechancial engineering (shock design) MUST make between rebound control and ride smoothness, make your choices approptriately.  But don't be among the TOTALLY CLUELESS who think that if they buy the top-of-the-line "shock absorber" their coach will ride like a Greyhound Bus and rebound like a Porsche Carrerra.

I know that sometimes I come across as gruff on this subject, but if you have ANY understanding of physics and Newtonian mechanics, you KNOW that the shock which "rides like velvet over tar strips, but quashes porpoising" DOES NOT EXIST!!!!!!  You choose what is most important to you, and if you have technical expertise, you purchase the "shock absorber" (rebound damper) whose performance most closely approximates your performance expectations...smoother ride OR better rebound control.  If you DO NOT have technical expertise, you will simply succumb to whatever advertising BS you see.  There ain't no free lunch.

I was once advised by the greatest technical authority that ever existed on this forum that the wandering, "road wild" behavior of my 1993 Dynasty was simply because it needed new shocks.  Even though, as a mechanical engineer (and auto mechanic from 13 years old) that made no sense to me, I did it anyway.  I replaced ALL my shocks with "Bilstein Comfort" shocks.  RESULT?  Coach rode rougher, but wandering did not decrease one iota.

So many folks who give "reviews" of a particular shock could not change those shocks THEMSELVES if their lives depended on it.  They are techincally clueless.  Their reviews frequently begin with, "I HAD my shocks changed at XYZ RV service..."  The folks who are capable of changing the shocks themselves are the ones most likely to give an honest, impartial review of the results...they spent the money to buy a replacement shock and installed it themselves.  They KNOW what they are expecting from the new shocks.

And why do so many otherwise intelligent folks post a review of a particular magic "XYZ" shock and claim it cured everything from wandering, rough riding, and porpoising...all at the same time...WHEN MILLENIAL-OLD PHYSICS GUARANTEES IT COULD NOT BE TRUE?  Why?  Because if you fell for the advertising hype that made you choose a mega-bucks shock, human natures GUARANTEES that you are not likely to say, "I foolishly spent my money on those shocks."  To keep from looking foolish, you will defend your purchasing decision.

If you want HONEST opinions about a variety of subjects (not just shock absorbers), look to the folks on this forum who have "real world, under-the-coach, greasy fingers" experience, NOT credit card experience.  That won't necessarily be the folks who post the most often.  It will be those folks that EVERYONE reads WHATEVER they post...Because they have a history of providing valuable advice.  Think...Ivan, Bob Nodine, Dave Pratt, Frank McElroy, Scotty Hutto, Walt Heathcock!!, and many others whose names might escape me at the moment.

Believe me, folks, there simply ain't no such thing as a magic shock absorber that "glides over tar strips and expansion joints" but "quashes porpoising".  If you disagree, let's talk about the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

[Guest Ray Davis]

9 hours ago, vanwill52 said:

If you want HONEST opinions about a variety of subjects (not just shock absorbers), look to the folks on this forum who have "real world, under-the-coach, greasy fingers" experience, NOT credit card experience

 Credit card experience !!!!!!  That's a great line, I'm going to use it.  

 We all are susceptible to the placebo effect.    

[Guest Ray Davis]

13 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Probably because they were doing nothing, Ray.

I replaced my factory Monroe's at about 32,000mi. Compressed one easily with one hand, and smoked a cigarette, watching it expand 😂! 

 

 Compressing easily then slow to expand seems closer to what we would want.   Easy compressing would not transmit bridge seams etc as much as a stiff shock but slow expanding should help control porpoising .

 Porpoising is annoying and a little embarrassing but my experience is it is on certain roads that have joints or seams that happen to be just right to make a coach   porpoise.  Fortunately it is usually short lived and changing speed often helps, but a stiff ride / shock is constant.  You'll never get that velvet ride with a stiff shock.         Some people may prefer a little stiffer ride, not me, if I'm driving 8 hrs what is 10, 20 , or even 30 min of that time with a little porpoising when the rest of the ride is   smooth. 

 

 

16 hours ago, Happycarz said:

The OE Monroes were terrible going over rolling curb on a diagonal unless I slowly crept one wheel at a time.

 Harry,  Welcome to Monacoers.     Great first post, I recognize Harry ( Happycarz ) from another forum and he always posts good stuff.

 Now, I'm curious, what is a rolling curb?   Do they have wheels?                     

 

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

IMO, the only true test of shocks are to use the same coach.  Install one brand, drive a given road, replace the shock with another brand, and drive the same road again.  

Chuck B

[dl_racing427]

Vanwill52:

It's true that there is no "magic" shock absorber, (possibly excepting some of the "active" shocks on newer high-end automobiles).
However, shocks with multi-stage valving can give a wider range of response to different VELOCITY bumps, which can better control porpoising, rocking and other low velocity suspension movements, while transmitting less of the jarring high velocity movements into the coach.

Basically, these shocks have several valves with different opening pressures.
They can be quite stiff in low velocity movements, while the higher pressure valves will open in response to higher velocity movements, and allow the fluid to move more easily to the other side of the piston, which softens the jolt to the coach.

These do tend to be expensive, and I'm not sure whether anyone actually makes them in applications for our coaches.

[Tom Cherry]

On 12/1/2020 at 10:14 AM, CapnDean said:

I am about to replace my factory shocks with Koni's.   (2008 Monaco Camelot 42PDQ) :  The Bilstein replacement shock is 24-187305 for all 10.   The Koni numbers are 8805-1004 for the front and 8805-1005 for the rear.  Anybody ever done this and know why?  I would think that the shocks need to be the same all around?

Secondarily:   Koni has two part numbers for these shocks....    The same number ending in SP1 is for the same shock but with a 3/4" eye on each end.  If the part number does not end in SP1, then the upper eye is 11/16" and the lower eye is 9/16".     I'm not sure which one I have and I don't  understand how Bilstein can get it right with one part number for all 10 whereas with the Koni shocks, I have to know things that I don't readily know.   

Obviously I do not wish to have to remove a shock and put it back on to make sure I order the right ones.   Has anyone been down this trail before?

 

Factory shocks are 13 years old (40K miles) and are doing the job albeit a little porpoising on a wavy road.

 

As the owner of a 2009 Monaco that went a bit "credit card" wild before I fully understood...or at least have a better concept...here goes

My OEM Monroe's were totally gone at 20K. Porposing is one thing....riding a bucking bronco or being on a shrimp boat with 25 ft. swells is another. My shocks were making my wife sick and my grandkids asking me to turn around and go over that section of the bridge again. The shocks were what Van would call...NO SHOCKS. You could easily take your hands and compress and extend them without being a Charles Atlas. Thus, there MIGHT have been a bit of dampening...but none to speak of. The ride was horrible, by our standards...and it is the OWNER's and probably the Queen's opinions, that count. Thus OFF with the OLD...on with the new.

I spent a lot of money and ordered the HD Source up front and the Standard Source in the rear. I also put on the front and rear Source (made by Roadmaster) sway bars. The shocks and the sway bars made a drastic improvement. NOW, how did I judge that....not from what I spent, but from a real test.

My wife is not an avid reader, but does read maybe an hour or so a day.  From day one, when we purchased the Camelot NEW, she could not read without getting a bit "queasy". Now, I will point out that she may have had a long bout with Land Sickness. That is, according to what we read, the result of a motion induced queasiness. We toured Alaska on a cruise line and even in the calm waters there, she was queasy. 

SO...she could not read while riding without feeling nauseasous. After I put on the various components....which I did 75% of myself, so I do I have little "Under the Belly" experience, she challenged me...."What did we get with all this outlay or $$$?".  Took her for a 50 mile ride on some rural county and state road and an interstate and she said.  OMG. This is great. It feels so much more solid. OK...The Queen is HAPPY....so the rest of the Kingdom celbrates.

NOW, that was in Summer of 2012. We took a trip down to LA via the Natchez Trace. When we left Raleigh, she idly picked up a book. She had finished it by the time we hit Nashville. I casually asked...Thought you could not read for more than 30 minutes without getting seasick?  OMG, you're RIGHT (a rarely spoken phrase). This is great.

SO, all the professional drivers and all the test reports and all the measured data and opinions can be taken into account. BUT, for me...and that is what is important, the Source Components did their job. Ride and handling (sway bars) improved.

Fast forward to May 18, 2018, I ventured down to Van's remote and fairly undisclosed location and he supervised me installing Mike Hughes' Watts Link Kit. An INSTANT SUCCESS. The handling improved markedly. NOW, that, as many here have attested to, is one of the BEST or perhaps FIRST things to do. It has NOTHING to do with SHOCKS.. However, I will make a comment based on experience and opinion.

The Heavy Front Source Shocks did have some impact on the handling. I know that as I installed the components in three different sessions. The Front Shocks were the second phase as the Front Sway Bar had to be  replaced with a different size. I test drove the Camelot over my test track and each phase (rear shocks and sway bar) and then Front Shocks improved the FEEL of the handling and the ride. The final phase of the Front Sway bar was about as good as I thought it could get,

THEN the Watts link and Van tweaking the TRW gearbox showed me the REAL WAY HOME.

I am NOT disagreeing with Van's post. Shocks are dampening devices.  The owner's tastes and ride preferences dictate what he and his crew needs. I like a tighter ride without all the bucking and porposing. Had I to do it over again, I would probably go with the Source regular shocks. The are the same Bilsteins that are offered as STOCK, but with different valving. They are guaranteed, by Source, for the LIFE of the MH..  I had one leak. Instant replacement.

The Stock Bilsteins require that you remove the shock and ship back. Sometimes a Dealer or Distributor will have one in stock and Bilstein will OK replacing it. The Former Shock Guru that developed the Bilstein Shocks and worked for them said that if he owned a Monaco Roadmaster Chassis, he would run the Source as he participated in the development and the valving of the Source Shocks.

Koni's have a great reputation. At least ONE of Van's HOF posters ran them and loved them on his Roadmaster.

Koni will also ship you a shock on a CC and you can replace and ship back the old one, assuming it is defective.

As to the original POST....the 42 Ft Camelot with the Tandem rear axle will handle or perform better than my single rear axle. This is a fact and has been verified by folks that have driven and owned 6 vs 8 wheelers. The rear's are typically more of an afterthought. Tire Pressure (know your load weight) does more for ride comfort in the rear than anything else.

The Camelot has one bad quirk. The placement of the fuel tank and fresh tank requires that you run almost 95% or around 110 PSI in the front. THAT is what impacts the need for a dampening shock. The more conventional MH's that will allow you to run 80% or so lightly loaded make a big difference in what type of ride or shock you need....as well as your crew's needs.

SO....my comment for the OP.  If the Worn Out Monroe's didn't bother you, then go back with them. They will last another 30K.  You will be out about 1/3 or what you will spend on the Koni's or the Bilsteins. Van and others are advocates of softer shocks that do not have the lifetime or prolonged useful life. They do the labor themselves, so there is no "installation" cost.  However, if you pay someone to install, then it might be a better economic decision to go with a better grade of shocks. I personally would use the Source Shocks, but that will be an adder that needs to be considered.  The Koni, I feel, would be the second choice and the stock Bilsteins as the final one. If the Bilteins were significantly cheaper than the Koni, I might run them on the rear and put the Source or the Koni on the front for an improved dampening.

My comments...based on both my Credit Card and Slithering experience. If I could recoup even half of the cost of the Source HD's, I would probably go back with the standard Source, but the "stiffness" since I typically don't go to AL or off roading is not something that I plan to investigate. 

[96 EVO]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

   OMG, you're RIGHT (a rarely spoken phrase).  

LOL!

Gee, where have I rarely heard that 🤔!

[Ivan K]

I think it would have been nice if someone came up with adjustable shocks so we could play with them like in the racing world. My drag car front shocks are set for very easy extension and hard compression when the front wheels hit the ground after a launch and the rears are each different to counter the engine torque. Great on the race track and horrible on the road but it is adjustable if I wanted to. Wonder if that would be doable for big rigs and probably pretty costly. Having said that, I am good with stock Bilsteins. Replaced the originals at 150k miles with no noticeable change but I also run 115PSI in the front so I "feel" the road. Next year I'll look for a front tire change to allow lower pressure. The new Bilsteins also have a much stronger mounting eyes than the originals so that's a plus to me.

[throgmartin]

40 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

I think it would have been nice if someone came up with adjustable shocks so we could play with them like in the racing world. My drag car front shocks are set for very easy extension and hard compression when the front wheels hit the ground after a launch and the rears are each different to counter the engine torque. Great on the race track and horrible on the road but it is adjustable if I wanted to. Wonder if that would be doable for big rigs and probably pretty costly. Having said that, I am good with stock Bilsteins. Replaced the originals at 150k miles with no noticeable change but I also run 115PSI in the front so I "feel" the road. Next year I'll look for a front tire change to allow lower pressure. The new Bilsteins also have a much stronger mounting eyes than the originals so that's a plus to me.

You bring up a good point Ivan. Tire inflation pressures. There are so many components to the ride we each have on our coaches - Tire Size , tire brand, inflation pressures, shocks, etc. I changed my shocks out when the Monroe's bit the dust to Bilsteins. I noticed just a slight improvement in the ride. I then went from 275's to 295's on tires, lowered the inflation pressure and the ride difference was much improved. It is surprising how 10 lbs of tire pressure can change the ride comfort in a coach. 

[Brett63]

On 12/7/2020 at 5:34 PM, CapnDean said:

WOW   That's an earful.     Well - - Here's my situation.    I have a 2008 Monaco Camelot.  It is a tag axle and is on the Roadmaster RR10S Chassis.   I am not experiencing any handling problems.  What I did experience is a bad case of porpoising on a crappy section of interstate.   The shock absorbers on my coach at present areMpnroe brand.   Since the Coach is 12 years old and has only 40K miles on it - I am confident that the monroe's are factory and are due for replacement.  

 

 Truth is though that absent the porpoising on one trip, I wouldn't have even started worrying about the shock absorbers.

Add a little more air to the tag. if you get this set correctly you will not porpoise. If you set it too high you will get handling issues as you are putting to much weight on the front and making it steer heavy. 3-4 lbs of air pressure make a WORLD of difference.

 

[David Pratt]

Monaco and other production coach manufacturers have tried the adjustable shock route. Monaco used the Firestone Version and could never get it to work and removed most of them from the coaches.

Spartan and other chassis manufacturers of the higher end coaches use air pressure by transferring air between the airbags in milliseconds to do just about everything that has been discussed on this thread.

Spartan developed the Active Air System and it has been very successful for years in the high end coaches and in the past few years has made it into the production coaches. There is also a couple of company's that make take offs of the Spartan Active Air System. Foretravel has used it for several years with great success. Go to the Spartan web site and check it out.

I have also found out that the Spartan Active Air can be added to just about any coach as an aftermarket addition.

[96 EVO]

2 hours ago, Ivan K said:

  but I also run 115PSI in the front so I "feel" the road. Next year I'll look for a front tire change to allow lower pressure. 

Yeah, when my steer tires time out, I'm going to look into fitting a pair of 315's in there!

[Ivan K]

15 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Yeah, when my steer tires time out, I'm going to look into fitting a pair of 315's in there!

Can you fit them on your rims? I can't but looking at Toyo 295/80 it looks like I could go with 100Psi so that would be a huge positive step for me with 13k axle. Anyways, different subject.

[96 EVO]

Should be able to, several others have.

Main issue is some coaches on the RR10S chassis have clearance issues with one or more air spring mount.

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

5 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Yeah, when my steer tires time out, I'm going to look into fitting a pair of 315's in there!

Be careful that the 315"s do not rub the inside of the wheel well cover.  Others have tried and were not successful.  Chuck B

[Scotty Hutto]

“Charles Atlas...” Tom, you’re dating yourself. 😉  Haven’t heard that name in a bit!  On the back cover of practically every comic book I ever owned.  I may or may not have actually sent off for the booklet. 🤪

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, Scotty Hutto said:

“Charles Atlas...” Tom, you’re dating yourself. 😉  Haven’t heard that name in a bit!  On the back cover of practically every comic book I ever owned.  I may or may not have actually sent off for the booklet. 🤪

Oh boy, I wanted to look like Charles Atlas, never made it though.    You think I could print that page, send off and get the booklet still?