Refrigerator problems

[Guest Ray Davis]

46 minutes ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

I plugged the fridge into an extension cord and the light and sensor works

What is the sensor ?

[Dave Pumphrey]

4 hours ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

Thanks for the insights!!!! So, I plugged the fridge into an extension cord and the light and sensor works, but I don’t hear the fan and compressor, so the fridge never cools.

Sensor?

[Moonwink]

The latest dryer outlets require 4 wires (a neutral and a ground plus to hot wires). 

They are still 30amp/240volts.

[klcdenver]

If you are lucky maybe you only knocked out the start relay. Suggest you go to YouTube and search Samsung start relay. Appliance pro has a short video on this.

[amphi_sc]

Wouldn't the smart surge protector / smart transfer switch detect bad voltage values and not pass the harmful voltage thru? I'm NOT gonna try it with a 240 three wire dryer outlet, but my transfer switch rejects voltage >130 (about, could be 133) or <104 (about) or open neutral or open ground or one hot leg open, .... Would it also reject 120 volts between neutral and ground?  Wouldn't the "miss wired plug" and a "dog bone" put the same split phase leg from the plug to what should be L1 and L2, the other split phase of the 240 "dryer plug" to neutral, and the plugs neutral to ground?  Thus the smart switch should see way to much voltage (>220) between either L1 or L2 and "effective" neutral in addition to the big voltage difference between "neutral" and "ground".  My internal contactor is open until the smarts decides "ok", sometimes pretty much immediately ok ( <1 second) but other times maybe a couple minutes when one leg dropped out but came back on (such as a "cheater" setup that tripped one breaker) or switching to generator. Agreed that an older coach with no "smarts" could be badly damaged.  Anyway, just thinking our smart protection devices should protect us from bad environments.  Isn't this the reason we paid big bucks for the plug in protectors in the first place?

 

 

 

 

[Dr4Film]

1 hour ago, amphi_sc said:

Wouldn't the smart surge protector / smart transfer switch detect bad voltage values and not pass the harmful voltage thru? Agreed that an older coach with no "smarts" could be badly damaged.  Anyway, just thinking our smart protection devices should protect us from bad environments.  Isn't this the reason we paid big bucks for the plug in protectors in the first place?

Your reasoning is absolutely correct! However, this coach owner hasn't given us enough information to really diagnose his problem. Plus he hasn't stated whether his coach had a Progressive Industries EMS electrical protection system on board or not. Coaches don't roll out of the factory with these devices already installed. Responsible coach owners have to install them to get the needed protection.

[Tom Cherry]

On 2/4/2021 at 5:58 AM, Dr4Film said:

Your reasoning is absolutely correct! However, this coach owner hasn't given us enough information to really diagnose his problem. Plus he hasn't stated whether his coach had a Progressive Industries EMS electrical protection system on board or not. Coaches don't roll out of the factory with these devices already installed. Responsible coach owners have to install them to get the needed protection.

Richard is correct.  Post is long on "Theory" and SHORT on "Facts".

However, there is one thing that we can, safely I hope, assume...  The HR 2004 Endeavor Owner's Manual (from the HR site) does not list  a standard or option Intellitect EMS system. SO, unless there is an aftermarket system, such as a Progressive Industries unit, the Coach has NOTHING to indicate what is going on or the "situation" in the electrical system.

[Tom Cherry]

On 2/1/2021 at 12:08 PM, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

Green horn James here again! So, just purchased our Endeavor and the former owner put a residential Samsung refrigerator on board. Worked awesome with generator running. Plugged in at home (used the dryer plug 30 amp) now not cooling. Lights work but not cooling. Nothing else seemingly damaged. I looked up possible problems, but not sure why this happened. Is there some hung I need to do prior to plugging in. 
 

thanks everyone! BBQ on me if your ever in the neighborhood!

James

James,

This post has morphed into a speculative trouble shooting topic and you need to assist and be more forthcoming with information. Based on all the posts, from a "
speculative" point of view, here is some information and also, from a moderator, a request.

First... When you have a problem please keep checking back and answer the email alerts that you get and reply. Folks want to help you, but when there is no info...then the posts get out of control.  Thanks for understanding that.

Second.  IMPORTANT. I pulled your owner's manual (download) from the HR site. You potentially have a FIRE HAZARD. If you locate the ATS (Auto Transfer Switch) which is called out and there is a picture of in the Electrical - House section of the manual, your unit ORIGINALLY has the Iota 50R ATS.  That unit was recalled. BUT, since Monaco was bankrupt and Navistar owned them, the DOT responsibility to recall and replace was not required. If you have the IOTA or I-50R, that ATS needs to be replaced immediatly. The suggested replacement is an ESCO LPT50BRD. The new ATS is in the $200 range and should be replaced by a competent Electrician. NOTE, this is a 120 Vac job, therefore any qualified electrician that does work on a residential or commercial unit can replace it. It does NOT required any specific knowledge of a MOTORHOME.  This is important....

Third. I have the same Samsung.  The Samsung unit is a little tricky or it was for me. Unplug the Samsung for about 15 minutes. Then, use a 120 VAC grounded extension cord from any source in your house and plug it back in.  Read (download if you don't have it) the owner's manual. TYPICALLY, when you disconnect, that resets most of the functions. The Ice ON/OFF does not, memory, reset. Make sure that the indicators and the settings and such are correct or what is specified in the Owner's Manual. Here is a copy and paste. IF you see the numbers or the set points of -2 and 36, then things should WORK. Read on...

FROM the Owner's manual... COOLING OFF MODE - "OF & OF" Will be DISPLAYED.....NOT the -2 and 36 when in normal operation. 

This function is for store display refrigerators. It is not for customer use.
In Cooling Off Mode, the refrigerator works but doesn’t make cool air. To cancel this mode, press
the Power Freeze and Freezer buttons at the same time for 3 seconds until a “Ding-dong” sound
is heard. The unit will now cool.

Fourth.  I had an issue with my Samsung. IF the previous owner did NOT block and insulate the lower cover, then the unit will not properly work or cool when the outside temperatures are under 35 degrees or so. In addition, the Upper Vent (probably on the roof based on the age of your unit) should have had the top cover removed and the flue or duct insulated as well.  SOME individuals or dealers were not aware of this. I had a NEW unit put in and spent a few days in the dealer's lot and it was erratic. Once I got home, and insulated the bottom cover and the top (mine has a side cover and not a top vent), it has worked flawlessly. I had a Samsung tech come out and he said..."GOT TOO COLD....will not work under 35. You have FIXED it..."

After rereading your posts, odds are...unless somehow the Samsung 

Fifth...You need to read the posts about the dryer cord and such. Folks have asked you specific questions. Please respond to them.  It would be helpful to have a picture of your "Dryer" outlet that you plugged into.  Did you use an adapter or how did you get them connected..?  Please post pictures and a description as soon as convenient so folks can assist. You REALLY need to understand, and perhaps you do but did not post, whether you put 220 VAC into the normal L1 and/or L2 lines.  if you did, then there would have been other issues with the HVAC and microwave and TV and such.

IF, and I hope they do, all the OTHER appliances work OK and there was no "Smoke", odds are....you have a defective component in the Samsung...

Thanks for your prompt attention to this.... 

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

James,

This post has morphed into a speculative trouble shooting topic and you need to assist and be more forthcoming with information. Based on all the posts, from a "
speculative" point of view, here is some information and also, from a moderator, a request.

First... When you have a problem please keep checking back and answer the email alerts that you get and reply. Folks want to help you, but when there is no info...then the posts get out of control.  Thanks for understanding that.

Second.  IMPORTANT. I pulled your owner's manual (download) from the HR site. You potentially have a FIRE HAZARD. If you locate the ATS (Auto Transfer Switch) which is called out and there is a picture of in the Electrical - House section of the manual, your unit ORIGINALLY has the Iota 50R ATS.  That unit was recalled. BUT, since Monaco was bankrupt and Navistar owned them, the DOT responsibility to recall and replace was not required. If you have the IOTA or I-50R, that ATS needs to be replaced immediatly. The suggested replacement is an ESCO LPT50BRD. The new ATS is in the $200 range and should be replaced by a competent Electrician. NOTE, this is a 120 Vac job, therefore any qualified electrician that does work on a residential or commercial unit can replace it. It does NOT required any specific knowledge of a MOTORHOME.  This is important....

Third. I have the same Samsung.  The Samsung unit is a little tricky or it was for me. Unplug the Samsung for about 15 minutes. Then, use a 120 VAC grounded extension cord from any source in your house and plug it back in.  Read (download if you don't have it) the owner's manual. TYPICALLY, when you disconnect, that resets most of the functions. The Ice ON/OFF does not, memory, reset. Make sure that the indicators and the settings and such are correct or what is specified in the Owner's Manual. Here is a copy and paste. IF you see the numbers or the set points of -2 and 36, then things should WORK. Read on...

FROM the Owner's manual... COOLING OFF MODE - "OF & OF" Will be DISPLAYED.....NOT the -2 and 36 when in normal operation. 

This function is for store display refrigerators. It is not for customer use.
In Cooling Off Mode, the refrigerator works but doesn’t make cool air. To cancel this mode, press
the Power Freeze and Freezer buttons at the same time for 3 seconds until a “Ding-dong” sound
is heard. The unit will now cool.

Fourth.  I had an issue with my Samsung. IF the previous owner did NOT block and insulate the lower cover, then the unit will not properly work or cool when the outside temperatures are under 35 degrees or so. In addition, the Upper Vent (probably on the roof based on the age of your unit) should have had the top cover removed and the flue or duct insulated as well.  SOME individuals or dealers were not aware of this. I had a NEW unit put in and spent a few days in the dealer's lot and it was erratic. Once I got home, and insulated the bottom cover and the top (mine has a side cover and not a top vent), it has worked flawlessly. I had a Samsung tech come out and he said..."GOT TOO COLD....will not work under 35. You have FIXED it..."

After rereading your posts, odds are...unless somehow the Samsung 

Fifth...You need to read the posts about the dryer cord and such. Folks have asked you specific questions. Please respond to them.  It would be helpful to have a picture of your "Dryer" outlet that you plugged into.  Did you use an adapter or how did you get them connected..?  Please post pictures and a description as soon as convenient so folks can assist. You REALLY need to understand, and perhaps you do but did not post, whether you put 220 VAC into the normal L1 and/or L2 lines.  if you did, then there would have been other issues with the HVAC and microwave and TV and such.

IF, and I hope they do, all the OTHER appliances work OK and there was no "Smoke", odds are....you have a defective component in the Samsung...

Thanks for your prompt attention to this.... 

Tom, thank you! Going into the Coach to work through this checklist. Will get back to you/all.

On 2/3/2021 at 9:08 PM, klcdenver said:

If you are lucky maybe you only knocked out the start relay. Suggest you go to YouTube and search Samsung start relay. Appliance pro has a short video on this.

Thank you. The YouTube video stated the control board or the compressor. A refrigerator guy is coming by today! Thank you!!

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

James,

This post has morphed into a speculative trouble shooting topic and you need to assist and be more forthcoming with information. Based on all the posts, from a "
speculative" point of view, here is some information and also, from a moderator, a request.

First... When you have a problem please keep checking back and answer the email alerts that you get and reply. Folks want to help you, but when there is no info...then the posts get out of control.  Thanks for understanding that.

Second.  IMPORTANT. I pulled your owner's manual (download) from the HR site. You potentially have a FIRE HAZARD. If you locate the ATS (Auto Transfer Switch) which is called out and there is a picture of in the Electrical - House section of the manual, your unit ORIGINALLY has the Iota 50R ATS.  That unit was recalled. BUT, since Monaco was bankrupt and Navistar owned them, the DOT responsibility to recall and replace was not required. If you have the IOTA or I-50R, that ATS needs to be replaced immediatly. The suggested replacement is an ESCO LPT50BRD. The new ATS is in the $200 range and should be replaced by a competent Electrician. NOTE, this is a 120 Vac job, therefore any qualified electrician that does work on a residential or commercial unit can replace it. It does NOT required any specific knowledge of a MOTORHOME.  This is important....

Third. I have the same Samsung.  The Samsung unit is a little tricky or it was for me. Unplug the Samsung for about 15 minutes. Then, use a 120 VAC grounded extension cord from any source in your house and plug it back in.  Read (download if you don't have it) the owner's manual. TYPICALLY, when you disconnect, that resets most of the functions. The Ice ON/OFF does not, memory, reset. Make sure that the indicators and the settings and such are correct or what is specified in the Owner's Manual. Here is a copy and paste. IF you see the numbers or the set points of -2 and 36, then things should WORK. Read on...

FROM the Owner's manual... COOLING OFF MODE - "OF & OF" Will be DISPLAYED.....NOT the -2 and 36 when in normal operation. 

This function is for store display refrigerators. It is not for customer use.
In Cooling Off Mode, the refrigerator works but doesn’t make cool air. To cancel this mode, press
the Power Freeze and Freezer buttons at the same time for 3 seconds until a “Ding-dong” sound
is heard. The unit will now cool.

Fourth.  I had an issue with my Samsung. IF the previous owner did NOT block and insulate the lower cover, then the unit will not properly work or cool when the outside temperatures are under 35 degrees or so. In addition, the Upper Vent (probably on the roof based on the age of your unit) should have had the top cover removed and the flue or duct insulated as well.  SOME individuals or dealers were not aware of this. I had a NEW unit put in and spent a few days in the dealer's lot and it was erratic. Once I got home, and insulated the bottom cover and the top (mine has a side cover and not a top vent), it has worked flawlessly. I had a Samsung tech come out and he said..."GOT TOO COLD....will not work under 35. You have FIXED it..."

After rereading your posts, odds are...unless somehow the Samsung 

Fifth...You need to read the posts about the dryer cord and such. Folks have asked you specific questions. Please respond to them.  It would be helpful to have a picture of your "Dryer" outlet that you plugged into.  Did you use an adapter or how did you get them connected..?  Please post pictures and a description as soon as convenient so folks can assist. You REALLY need to understand, and perhaps you do but did not post, whether you put 220 VAC into the normal L1 and/or L2 lines.  if you did, then there would have been other issues with the HVAC and microwave and TV and such.

IF, and I hope they do, all the OTHER appliances work OK and there was no "Smoke", odds are....you have a defective component in the Samsung...

Thanks for your prompt attention to this.... 

Tom, just tried your idea concerning the fridge. When I pushed power freeze and freezer buttons, I heard the beep. Waiting awhile to see if it cools! 

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Richard is correct.  Post is long on "Theory" and SHORT on "Facts".

However, there is one thing that we can, safely I hope, assume...  The HR 2004 Endeavor Owner's Manual (from the HR site) does not list  a standard or option Intellitect EMS system. SO, unless there is an aftermarket system, such as a Progressive Industries unit, the Coach has NOTHING to indicate what is going on or the "situation" in the electrical system.

Looking into the EMS issue now. 

[Dave Pumphrey]

On 2/3/2021 at 7:51 AM, dl_racing427 said:

Not sure how he could do that, short of wiring a hot leg to the neutral.
There's nothing "RV special" about the NEMA 14-50R receptacle.

Good to hear back from you.

How about a pic of the dryer outlet you plugged into?

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

On 2/3/2021 at 4:27 PM, Ray Davis said:

What is the sensor ?

A beep that I guess means I’m under temp. Followed Toms steps and have all lights but no cooling. Waiting for the fridge guy.

11 minutes ago, Dave Pumphrey said:

Good to hear back from you.

How about a pic of the dryer outlet you plugged into?

So far, everything is working in the coach except the fridge cool . Thank you! Sorry for the late reply.

[Dave Pumphrey]

What is the temperature there?

When I did my first trip after installing my residential Haier in Nov 2019, the temp dropped to the 20's.

I had not blocked the top & bottom vents, & the fridge quit cooling.

I blocked the bottom vents on the access pannel with duct tape on the inside,

& put an incandescent bulb behind the bottom of the fridge.

It was back to working in a couple hours, but not before loosing the ice cream.

I have since closed both top & bottom vents with 2" Styrofoam insulation board.

no more trouble.

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

23 minutes ago, Dave Pumphrey said:

Good to hear back from you.

How about a pic of the dryer outlet you plugged into?

So far, everything is working in the coach except the fridge cool . Thank you! Sorry for the late reply. Looking into it now!

5 minutes ago, Dave Pumphrey said:

What is the temperature there?

When I did my first trip after installing my residential Haier in Nov 2019, the temp dropped to the 20's.

I had not blocked the top & bottom vents, & the fridge quit cooling.

I blocked the bottom vents on the access pannel with duct tape on the inside,

& put an incandescent bulb behind the bottom of the fridge.

It was back to working in a couple hours, but not before loosing the ice cream.

I have since closed both top & bottom vents with 2" Styrofoam insulation board.

no more trouble.

Mid 70’s... So. Fl. After the possible electrical snafu (still determining) we left for So. Carolina. Cranked up the Gen. and fridge did not work. We did get cold weather in So. Carolina, but fridge was not working at that point.

[Dave Pumphrey]

Put a volt meter between the angled terminals, let us know what you get.

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

40 minutes ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

A beep that I guess means I’m under temp. Followed Toms steps and have all lights but no cooling. Waiting for the fridge guy.

So far, everything is working in the coach except the fridge cool . Thank you! Sorry for the late reply.

The dryer plug and plug in. No, we made a pig tail the plugged into the dryer plug and had a box with the proper plug in for the coach plug.

15 minutes ago, Dave Pumphrey said:

Put a volt meter between the angled terminals, let us know what you get.

Yikes, don’t have one. Will do a Lowe’s run later.

[Guest Ray Davis]

4 minutes ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

Yikes, don’t have one. Will do a Lowe’s run later.

James,  I suppose you are going to Lowes to get a RV receptacle.    The receptacle picture in your post is the one people have been warning you about.   

That is the old type of dryer receptacle and the wiring for it has no common wire.  Without a common your appliances etc can get 240 volts.

 Adapting to the wiring for a 3 prong dryer can literally destroy many electrical things in the coach such as the Samsung, tv, and just about anything else.

 RV wiring is a little different and some electricans get into trouble especially with this dryer wiring.

 Of course it is possible the Samsung just broke and it has nothing to do with your receptacle.

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

44 minutes ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

The dryer plug and plug in. No, we made a pig tail the plugged into the dryer plug and had a box with the proper plug in for the coach plug.

Yikes, don’t have one. Will do a Lowe’s run later.

Whatever sort of pigtail you used, but it won’t correct your problem.  I think you meant you’re going to get a volt meter—some called multi-meter, not an outlet.   Once you confirm our suspicions of 240VAC* on that old style dryer outlet, you may want (an electrician) to replace & rewire it for a 30A 120VAV RV outlet, which requires one hot, one neutral, & a ground.  Not something to try as your first DIY electrical project!🤪
*set meter for 600VAC, measure across one angled leg and the top slot—should read 110-120VAC. Then measure across the two angled slots & you’ll likely find it reads 220-240VAC.  STOP RIGHT THERE & hire an electrician.

[rpasetto]

James, The plug and outlet pictures you posted are devices designed to connect 240v AC, not 120v AC as a 30amp RV plug and outlet.  When wired in this way, there's 240vAC between each of the angled slots in the outlet.  A 30 amp RV plug may look sort-of like the dryer plug, is made to plug into a 30 amp 120v RV outlet; voltage between the two angled slots should be 120vAC.  This is why we've been asking you to measure voltage between the two angled slots.

Your 2004 Endeavor is equipped with a 50amp plug for a 50 amp outlet which when used for an RV, supplies two separate 50 amp 120v 'legs'.  Depending on how you adapted the 240vAC plug on your coach to the 240vAC dryer plug in your house there may be some resultant damage or not. 

Do not plug in until you have a properly wired 50amp receptacle or an RV 50 amp to 30 amp adapter.   Also heed Tom's advice about your auto transfer switch and, if it is the recalled unit, obtain a safe replacement.   Once you are able to safely plug in to proper power, you can then test your appliances to be sure they're OK.  

The diagram below shows the voltage readings you should expect with that 50 amp outlet.  For a coach, the 120vAC readings, labelled "Hot1" and "Hot2" represent the Leg1 and Leg2 referred to earlier.  

Edited February 6, 2021 by rpasetto

[Dr4Film]

3 hours ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

A beep that I guess means I’m under temp. Followed Toms steps and have all lights but no cooling. Waiting for the fridge guy.

So far, everything is working in the coach except the fridge cool . Thank you! Sorry for the late reply.

That 240 VAC pigtail in the photo would be fine providing that it was wired correctly to the RV 50 amp receptacle you are using. One slanted terminal wire is Leg #1 the other slanted terminal wire is Leg #2 and the right angle terminal is a combination of neutral/ground. That's probably OK as they are bonded at your main panel providing the 240 amp dryer plug is not coming from a sub-panel. However, if the coach has a Progressive Industries EMS unit it most likely would have blocked your coach from getting power when using only three wires instead of four as I believe it likes to "see" a separate ground and neutral which is normally found at campgrounds as the pedestals are considered sub-panels therefore the ground and neutral have to be separated.

You could always run a fourth wire for the ground, say 8 or 10 gauge and connect to anything that is well grounded such as the metal box or whatever you find that is a good ground going back to the panel.

I had made up a custom pigtail/box to use at my brothers barn where he had a 40 amp welding receptacle which was only three wires. I ran a fourth green wire over to a 20 amp receptacle and used the ground terminal for the ground. Worked like a charm until this past summer when we were back up north to visit my brother once again and I couldn't find the device which I always stored in my coach. I guess it must have grown legs at one of the places I had taken the coach in for service.

So I drove down to the local electrical supply house and purchased all of the materials to install a 50 amp surface mount receptacle with breaker, 6 gauge four wire cable and receptacle. Don't have to worry about caring the convertor box around any longer.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Dr4Film said:

That 240 VAC pigtail in the photo would be fine providing that it was wired correctly to the RV 50 amp receptacle you are using. One slanted terminal wire is Leg #1 the other slanted terminal wire is Leg #2 and the right angle terminal is a combination of neutral/ground. That's probably OK as they are bonded at your main panel providing the 240 amp dryer plug is not coming from a sub-panel. However, if the coach has a Progressive Industries EMS unit it most likely would have blocked your coach from getting power when using only three wires instead of four as I believe it likes to "see" a separate ground and neutral which is normally found at campgrounds as the pedestals are considered sub-panels therefore the ground and neutral have to be separated.

You could always run a fourth wire for the ground, say 8 or 10 gauge and connect to anything that is well grounded such as the metal box or whatever you find that is a good ground going back to the panel.

I had made up a custom pigtail/box to use at my brothers barn where he had a 40 amp welding receptacle which was only three wires. I ran a fourth green wire over to a 20 amp receptacle and used the ground terminal for the ground. Worked like a charm until this past summer when we were back up north to visit my brother once again and I couldn't find the device which I always stored in my coach. I guess it must have grown legs at one of the places I had taken the coach in for service.

So I drove down to the local electrical supply house and purchased all of the materials to install a 50 amp surface mount receptacle with breaker, 6 gauge four wire cable and receptacle. Don't have to worry about caring the convertor box around any longer.

At the risk of getting bombarded....using a THREE wire 240 VAC Dryer Receptacle, from a practical standpoint WILL WORK.  If you purchase a NEW dryer, it will, typically if if has a line cord set, come with a 4 wire connection.

Back to NEC Basics. The MAIN panel inside the home or the Service Panel (where the breakers are located) has or SHOULD have a BONDED GROUND TO NEUTRAL.  That is the ONLY location WHERE that is required. If you have a THREE wire Dryer Plug, the third wire is GROUND. GOD FORBID that anyone would also tell you that there is supposed to be ZERO resistance between GROUND and NEUTRAL on a branch circuit.

Electricians and also us "tinkerers" have been using a jumper between the GROUND and the Neutral on dryer circuits for years. As LONG as the main panel has a bonded Ground to Neutral, then the dryer will work the same...

If you check the NEC, I think it was 1999 when the FOUR wire service was required. NEW Construction requires a 4 wire service.  Replacement of an EXISTING CIRCUIT does not.  Common sense says if the wire is bad and you have to pull a NEW service....make it 4.

BUT, if you have an existing THREE wire circuit, then the approved method is to do the following.

L1 and L2 are to go to their respective HOT locations on the Breaker. The Neutral may or may NOT be connected to Neutral in the Main Panel. The main panel MUST have a bonded or at least a number 4 jumper between Ground and Neutral (Generically speaking). Remove the THIRD WIRE....if it is connected to the GROUND BUSS and attach to NEUTRAL.  If there is 110 Circuit that has a GROUND wire, then you CAN tap into THAT wire and run a separate ground to the new 4 wire receptacle.

IF NOT....then you jumper the receptacle so that Neutral and Ground are connected. YES, that is OK as long as a LOCAL CODE does not prohibit the bonding of Neutral to Ground. 

Here is what Maytag advises when a new dryer is installed and the service may NOT be 4 wire...

-Cycle Electric Dryer is manufactured ready to install with a 3-wire electrical supply connection. The neutral ground wire is permanently connected to the neutral conductor (white wire) within the dryer. If the dryer is installed with a 4-wire electrical supply connection, the neutral ground wire must be removed from the external ground connector screw (green screw), and secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the terminal block. When the neutral ground wire is secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the terminal block, the dryer cabinet is isolated from the neutral conductor. ■ A 4-wire power supply connection must be used when the dryer is installed in a location where grounding through the neutral conductor is prohibited. Grounding through the neutral is prohibited for (1) new branch-circuit installations, (2) mobile homes, (3) recreational vehicles, and (4) areas where local codes prohibit grounding through the neutral conductors.

 

NEC 250.32(B)(1)

The applicable NEC section is 250.32(B)(1), which reads as follows ("equipment grounding conductor" = "ground" and "grounded conductor" = "neutral" for us, and exception 2 is irrelevant for this):

(1) Supplied by a Feeder or Branch Circuit. An equipment grounding conductor, as described in 250.118, shall be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). The equipment grounding conductor shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122. Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s).

Exception No. 1: For installations made in compliance with previous editions of this Code that permitted such connection, the grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).

If the grounded conductor is used for grounding in accordance with the provision of this exception, the size of the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the larger of either of the following:

(1) That required by 220.61

(2) That required by 250.122

The current state of this section was reached in the 2008 NEC, which forbade new construction from using the feeder neutral to provide ground for the fed system. (Your choices now are to provide a separate ground wire, which is what is normally done, or use a distribution transformer to create a separately derived system for the fed building, which has its own N-G bond.) Many of the installations that fall under the current exception were installed prior to the 1999 NEC, which is the first edition that forbade parallel current paths between the structures involved.

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

6 hours ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

So far, everything is working in the coach except the fridge cool . Thank you! Sorry for the late reply. Looking into it now!

Mid 70’s... So. Fl. After the possible electrical snafu (still determining) we left for So. Carolina. Cranked up the Gen. and fridge did not work. We did get cold weather in So. Carolina, but fridge was not working at that point.

Electrician came by. Everything works in the coach!!! Thank God. The inverter board of the fridge just went out. Everything works but not cooling. 

3 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

That 240 VAC pigtail in the photo would be fine providing that it was wired correctly to the RV 50 amp receptacle you are using. One slanted terminal wire is Leg #1 the other slanted terminal wire is Leg #2 and the right angle terminal is a combination of neutral/ground. That's probably OK as they are bonded at your main panel providing the 240 amp dryer plug is not coming from a sub-panel. However, if the coach has a Progressive Industries EMS unit it most likely would have blocked your coach from getting power when using only three wires instead of four as I believe it likes to "see" a separate ground and neutral which is normally found at campgrounds as the pedestals are considered sub-panels therefore the ground and neutral have to be separated.

You could always run a fourth wire for the ground, say 8 or 10 gauge and connect to anything that is well grounded such as the metal box or whatever you find that is a good ground going back to the panel.

I had made up a custom pigtail/box to use at my brothers barn where he had a 40 amp welding receptacle which was only three wires. I ran a fourth green wire over to a 20 amp receptacle and used the ground terminal for the ground. Worked like a charm until this past summer when we were back up north to visit my brother once again and I couldn't find the device which I always stored in my coach. I guess it must have grown legs at one of the places I had taken the coach in for service.

So I drove down to the local electrical supply house and purchased all of the materials to install a 50 amp surface mount receptacle with breaker, 6 gauge four wire cable and receptacle. Don't have to worry about caring the convertor box around any longer.

Super smart. That’s what I am doing with my pig tail as well. RW configuring with 4 wires(neutral) and Cary it with me. Thx!

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

At the risk of getting bombarded....using a THREE wire 240 VAC Dryer Receptacle, from a practical standpoint WILL WORK.  If you purchase a NEW dryer, it will, typically if if has a line cord set, come with a 4 wire connection.

Back to NEC Basics. The MAIN panel inside the home or the Service Panel (where the breakers are located) has or SHOULD have a BONDED GROUND TO NEUTRAL.  That is the ONLY location WHERE that is required. If you have a THREE wire Dryer Plug, the third wire is GROUND. GOD FORBID that anyone would also tell you that there is supposed to be ZERO resistance between GROUND and NEUTRAL on a branch circuit.

Electricians and also us "tinkerers" have been using a jumper between the GROUND and the Neutral on dryer circuits for years. As LONG as the main panel has a bonded Ground to Neutral, then the dryer will work the same...

If you check the NEC, I think it was 1999 when the FOUR wire service was required. NEW Construction requires a 4 wire service.  Replacement of an EXISTING CIRCUIT does not.  Common sense says if the wire is bad and you have to pull a NEW service....make it 4.

BUT, if you have an existing THREE wire circuit, then the approved method is to do the following.

L1 and L2 are to go to their respective HOT locations on the Breaker. The Neutral may or may NOT be connected to Neutral in the Main Panel. The main panel MUST have a bonded or at least a number 4 jumper between Ground and Neutral (Generically speaking). Remove the THIRD WIRE....if it is connected to the GROUND BUSS and attach to NEUTRAL.  If there is 110 Circuit that has a GROUND wire, then you CAN tap into THAT wire and run a separate ground to the new 4 wire receptacle.

IF NOT....then you jumper the receptacle so that Neutral and Ground are connected. YES, that is OK as long as a LOCAL CODE does not prohibit the bonding of Neutral to Ground. 

Here is what Maytag advises when a new dryer is installed and the service may NOT be 4 wire...

-Cycle Electric Dryer is manufactured ready to install with a 3-wire electrical supply connection. The neutral ground wire is permanently connected to the neutral conductor (white wire) within the dryer. If the dryer is installed with a 4-wire electrical supply connection, the neutral ground wire must be removed from the external ground connector screw (green screw), and secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the terminal block. When the neutral ground wire is secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the terminal block, the dryer cabinet is isolated from the neutral conductor. ■ A 4-wire power supply connection must be used when the dryer is installed in a location where grounding through the neutral conductor is prohibited. Grounding through the neutral is prohibited for (1) new branch-circuit installations, (2) mobile homes, (3) recreational vehicles, and (4) areas where local codes prohibit grounding through the neutral conductors.

 

NEC 250.32(B)(1)

The applicable NEC section is 250.32(B)(1), which reads as follows ("equipment grounding conductor" = "ground" and "grounded conductor" = "neutral" for us, and exception 2 is irrelevant for this):

(1) Supplied by a Feeder or Branch Circuit. An equipment grounding conductor, as described in 250.118, shall be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). The equipment grounding conductor shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122. Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s).

Exception No. 1: For installations made in compliance with previous editions of this Code that permitted such connection, the grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).

If the grounded conductor is used for grounding in accordance with the provision of this exception, the size of the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the larger of either of the following:

(1) That required by 220.61

(2) That required by 250.122

The current state of this section was reached in the 2008 NEC, which forbade new construction from using the feeder neutral to provide ground for the fed system. (Your choices now are to provide a separate ground wire, which is what is normally done, or use a distribution transformer to create a separately derived system for the fed building, which has its own N-G bond.) Many of the installations that fall under the current exception were installed prior to the 1999 NEC, which is the first edition that forbade parallel current paths between the structures involved.

Awesome! Existing pig tail but reconfiguring to add 4 wires for the neutral and not just ground. 

4 hours ago, rpasetto said:

James, The plug and outlet pictures you posted are devices designed to connect 240v AC, not 120v AC as a 30amp RV plug and outlet.  When wired in this way, there's 240vAC between each of the angled slots in the outlet.  A 30 amp RV plug may look sort-of like the dryer plug, is made to plug into a 30 amp 120v RV outlet; voltage between the two angled slots should be 120vAC.  This is why we've been asking you to measure voltage between the two angled slots.

Your 2004 Endeavor is equipped with a 50amp plug for a 50 amp outlet which when used for an RV, supplies two separate 50 amp 120v 'legs'.  Depending on how you adapted the 240vAC plug on your coach to the 240vAC dryer plug in your house there may be some resultant damage or not. 

Do not plug in until you have a properly wired 50amp receptacle or an RV 50 amp to 30 amp adapter.   Also heed Tom's advice about your auto transfer switch and, if it is the recalled unit, obtain a safe replacement.   Once you are able to safely plug in to proper power, you can then test your appliances to be sure they're OK.  

The diagram below shows the voltage readings you should expect with that 50 amp outlet.  For a coach, the 120vAC readings, labelled "Hot1" and "Hot2" represent the Leg1 and Leg2 referred to earlier.  

Thank you! Reconfiguring my pig tail with a 4 wire / neutral wire! Thank you for the help.

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

16 minutes ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

Electrician came by. Everything works in the coach!!! Thank God. The inverter board of the fridge just went out. Everything works but not cooling. 

Super smart. That’s what I am doing with my pig tail as well. RW configuring with 4 wires(neutral) and Cary it with me. Thx!

Awesome! Existing pig tail but reconfiguring to add 4 wires for the neutral and not just ground. 

Thank you! Reconfiguring my pig tail with a 4 wire / neutral wire! Thank you for the help.

Will do. Just looked at the ATS. Exactly as Tom described. Will order what Tom suggested and have it put in. Not plugging in until I have a properly dedicated line at home😂 thank you!

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

At the risk of getting bombarded....using a THREE wire 240 VAC Dryer Receptacle, from a practical standpoint WILL WORK.  If you purchase a NEW dryer, it will, typically if if has a line cord set, come with a 4 wire connection.

Back to NEC Basics. The MAIN panel inside the home or the Service Panel (where the breakers are located) has or SHOULD have a BONDED GROUND TO NEUTRAL.  That is the ONLY location WHERE that is required. If you have a THREE wire Dryer Plug, the third wire is GROUND. GOD FORBID that anyone would also tell you that there is supposed to be ZERO resistance between GROUND and NEUTRAL on a branch circuit.

Electricians and also us "tinkerers" have been using a jumper between the GROUND and the Neutral on dryer circuits for years. As LONG as the main panel has a bonded Ground to Neutral, then the dryer will work the same...

If you check the NEC, I think it was 1999 when the FOUR wire service was required. NEW Construction requires a 4 wire service.  Replacement of an EXISTING CIRCUIT does not.  Common sense says if the wire is bad and you have to pull a NEW service....make it 4.

BUT, if you have an existing THREE wire circuit, then the approved method is to do the following.

L1 and L2 are to go to their respective HOT locations on the Breaker. The Neutral may or may NOT be connected to Neutral in the Main Panel. The main panel MUST have a bonded or at least a number 4 jumper between Ground and Neutral (Generically speaking). Remove the THIRD WIRE....if it is connected to the GROUND BUSS and attach to NEUTRAL.  If there is 110 Circuit that has a GROUND wire, then you CAN tap into THAT wire and run a separate ground to the new 4 wire receptacle.

IF NOT....then you jumper the receptacle so that Neutral and Ground are connected. YES, that is OK as long as a LOCAL CODE does not prohibit the bonding of Neutral to Ground. 

Here is what Maytag advises when a new dryer is installed and the service may NOT be 4 wire...

-Cycle Electric Dryer is manufactured ready to install with a 3-wire electrical supply connection. The neutral ground wire is permanently connected to the neutral conductor (white wire) within the dryer. If the dryer is installed with a 4-wire electrical supply connection, the neutral ground wire must be removed from the external ground connector screw (green screw), and secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the terminal block. When the neutral ground wire is secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the terminal block, the dryer cabinet is isolated from the neutral conductor. ■ A 4-wire power supply connection must be used when the dryer is installed in a location where grounding through the neutral conductor is prohibited. Grounding through the neutral is prohibited for (1) new branch-circuit installations, (2) mobile homes, (3) recreational vehicles, and (4) areas where local codes prohibit grounding through the neutral conductors.

 

NEC 250.32(B)(1)

The applicable NEC section is 250.32(B)(1), which reads as follows ("equipment grounding conductor" = "ground" and "grounded conductor" = "neutral" for us, and exception 2 is irrelevant for this):

(1) Supplied by a Feeder or Branch Circuit. An equipment grounding conductor, as described in 250.118, shall be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). The equipment grounding conductor shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122. Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s).

Exception No. 1: For installations made in compliance with previous editions of this Code that permitted such connection, the grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).

If the grounded conductor is used for grounding in accordance with the provision of this exception, the size of the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the larger of either of the following:

(1) That required by 220.61

(2) That required by 250.122

The current state of this section was reached in the 2008 NEC, which forbade new construction from using the feeder neutral to provide ground for the fed system. (Your choices now are to provide a separate ground wire, which is what is normally done, or use a distribution transformer to create a separately derived system for the fed building, which has its own N-G bond.) Many of the installations that fall under the current exception were installed prior to the 1999 NEC, which is the first edition that forbade parallel current paths between the structures involved.

Thank you. Going to run a dedicated port from the house to Coach. 

On 2/3/2021 at 9:08 PM, klcdenver said:

If you are lucky maybe you only knocked out the start relay. Suggest you go to YouTube and search Samsung start relay. Appliance pro has a short video on this.

Sure did! Had the fridge guy in today! Thank you!

[johncvandoren@gmail.com]

59 minutes ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

Electrician came by. Everything works in the coach!!! Thank God. The inverter board of the fridge just went out. Everything works but not cooling. 

Super smart. That’s what I am doing with my pig tail as well. RW configuring with 4 wires(neutral) and Cary it with me. Thx!

Awesome! Existing pig tail but reconfiguring to add 4 wires for the neutral and not just ground. 

Thank you! Reconfiguring my pig tail with a 4 wire / neutral wire! Thank you for the help.

How do you plan to “reconfigure” a 3-wire plug with a 4-wire receptacle?  I take it your RV is a 50A rig. I still think you should have an RV qualified electrician install a 50A outlet at your house, upgrading the breaker to 50 and the wires to AWG6/3 + ground. Pulling 50A through AWG10/2 (30A) wiring can burn down your house!

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

5 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

At the risk of getting bombarded....using a THREE wire 240 VAC Dryer Receptacle, from a practical standpoint WILL WORK.  If you purchase a NEW dryer, it will, typically if if has a line cord set, come with a 4 wire connection.

Back to NEC Basics. The MAIN panel inside the home or the Service Panel (where the breakers are located) has or SHOULD have a BONDED GROUND TO NEUTRAL.  That is the ONLY location WHERE that is required. If you have a THREE wire Dryer Plug, the third wire is GROUND. GOD FORBID that anyone would also tell you that there is supposed to be ZERO resistance between GROUND and NEUTRAL on a branch circuit.

Electricians and also us "tinkerers" have been using a jumper between the GROUND and the Neutral on dryer circuits for years. As LONG as the main panel has a bonded Ground to Neutral, then the dryer will work the same...

If you check the NEC, I think it was 1999 when the FOUR wire service was required. NEW Construction requires a 4 wire service.  Replacement of an EXISTING CIRCUIT does not.  Common sense says if the wire is bad and you have to pull a NEW service....make it 4.

BUT, if you have an existing THREE wire circuit, then the approved method is to do the following.

L1 and L2 are to go to their respective HOT locations on the Breaker. The Neutral may or may NOT be connected to Neutral in the Main Panel. The main panel MUST have a bonded or at least a number 4 jumper between Ground and Neutral (Generically speaking). Remove the THIRD WIRE....if it is connected to the GROUND BUSS and attach to NEUTRAL.  If there is 110 Circuit that has a GROUND wire, then you CAN tap into THAT wire and run a separate ground to the new 4 wire receptacle.

IF NOT....then you jumper the receptacle so that Neutral and Ground are connected. YES, that is OK as long as a LOCAL CODE does not prohibit the bonding of Neutral to Ground. 

Here is what Maytag advises when a new dryer is installed and the service may NOT be 4 wire...

-Cycle Electric Dryer is manufactured ready to install with a 3-wire electrical supply connection. The neutral ground wire is permanently connected to the neutral conductor (white wire) within the dryer. If the dryer is installed with a 4-wire electrical supply connection, the neutral ground wire must be removed from the external ground connector screw (green screw), and secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the terminal block. When the neutral ground wire is secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the terminal block, the dryer cabinet is isolated from the neutral conductor. ■ A 4-wire power supply connection must be used when the dryer is installed in a location where grounding through the neutral conductor is prohibited. Grounding through the neutral is prohibited for (1) new branch-circuit installations, (2) mobile homes, (3) recreational vehicles, and (4) areas where local codes prohibit grounding through the neutral conductors.

 

NEC 250.32(B)(1)

The applicable NEC section is 250.32(B)(1), which reads as follows ("equipment grounding conductor" = "ground" and "grounded conductor" = "neutral" for us, and exception 2 is irrelevant for this):

(1) Supplied by a Feeder or Branch Circuit. An equipment grounding conductor, as described in 250.118, shall be run with the supply conductors and be connected to the building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding electrode(s). The equipment grounding conductor shall be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures, or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122. Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected to the equipment grounding conductor or to the grounding electrode(s).

Exception No. 1: For installations made in compliance with previous editions of this Code that permitted such connection, the grounded conductor run with the supply to the building or structure shall be permitted to serve as the ground-fault return path if all of the following requirements continue to be met:

(1) An equipment grounding conductor is not run with the supply to the building or structure.

(2) There are no continuous metallic paths bonded to the grounding system in each building or structure involved.

(3) Ground-fault protection of equipment has not been installed on the supply side of the feeder(s).

If the grounded conductor is used for grounding in accordance with the provision of this exception, the size of the grounded conductor shall not be smaller than the larger of either of the following:

(1) That required by 220.61

(2) That required by 250.122

The current state of this section was reached in the 2008 NEC, which forbade new construction from using the feeder neutral to provide ground for the fed system. (Your choices now are to provide a separate ground wire, which is what is normally done, or use a distribution transformer to create a separately derived system for the fed building, which has its own N-G bond.) Many of the installations that fall under the current exception were installed prior to the 1999 NEC, which is the first edition that forbade parallel current paths between the structures involved.

Just now, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

Tom, would you recommend this TS?