Refrigerator problems

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

46 minutes ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

Tom, would you recommend this TS? Or the bottom one?

[dl_racing427]

9 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

That 240 VAC pigtail in the photo would be fine providing that it was wired correctly to the RV 50 amp receptacle you are using. One slanted terminal wire is Leg #1 the other slanted terminal wire is Leg #2 and the right angle terminal is a combination of neutral/ground. That's probably OK as they are bonded at your main panel providing the 240 amp dryer plug is not coming from a sub-panel. However, if the coach has a Progressive Industries EMS unit it most likely would have blocked your coach from getting power when using only three wires instead of four as I believe it likes to "see" a separate ground and neutral which is normally found at campgrounds as the pedestals are considered sub-panels therefore the ground and neutral have to be separated.

You could always run a fourth wire for the ground, say 8 or 10 gauge and connect to anything that is well grounded such as the metal box or whatever you find that is a good ground going back to the panel.

I had made up a custom pigtail/box to use at my brothers barn where he had a 40 amp welding receptacle which was only three wires. I ran a fourth green wire over to a 20 amp receptacle and used the ground terminal for the ground. Worked like a charm until this past summer when we were back up north to visit my brother once again and I couldn't find the device which I always stored in my coach. I guess it must have grown legs at one of the places I had taken the coach in for service.

So I drove down to the local electrical supply house and purchased all of the materials to install a 50 amp surface mount receptacle with breaker, 6 gauge four wire cable and receptacle. Don't have to worry about caring the convertor box around any longer.

Using a ground for a neutral can cause a fire in your home.
Ground conductors are not sized to carry the current rating of the breaker.

Ground conductors are only there to trip the breaker in the event of a fault, and using one for a neutral can overheat it and set your home on fire. .
If you're not familiar with electrical codes and wiring, PLEASE hire a qualified electrician to do this install.

Edited February 7, 2021 by dl_racing427

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

8 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

Using a ground for a neutral can cause a fire in your home.
Ground conductors are not sized to carry the current rating of the breaker.

Ground conductors are only there to trip the breaker in the event of a fault, and using one for a neutral can overheat it and set your home on fire. .
If you're not familiar with electrical codes and wiring, PLEASE hire a qualified electrician to do this install.

Awesome! Thank you. Going to reconfigure with a neutral.

Just now, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

Awesome! Thank you. Going to reconfigure with a neutral.

 

[waterskier_1]

WOW, it is amazing how many responders on this thread don't know that the RV 50-Amp service is indeed 220 Volts @ 50 Amps.  Granted nothing in the coach is wire to require 220 (possible exception some newer coaches with 220 Dryers).  In the main power panel you'll have one leg, L1 and another leg, L2. Each measure 120 VAC to neutral, or 220 VAC between each other.  You really have the equivalent of 110 VAC @ 100 Amps (50 Amps per side or leg.  The RV 30-Amp service is 110 VAC @ 30 Amps.  The L1 & L2 are connected together to supply both sides of the power panel, but you can draw only a total of 30-Amps.  

If you properly (see Tom's post above) to a Dryer 30-Amp circuit, (which is 220 VAC), you will have 30-Amps on each side of the main power panel which yield a total of 60-Amps @ 100 VAC--- twice what a typical RV 30-AMP connection would provide.   

[Guest Ray Davis]

Rick,  Most on here know and understand exactly what you are saying.   We may not articulate it as well as you did.

 Our concern is for those who don't quite know that improperly tapping into a dryer receptacle can get you into serious trouble.    Yes a 50 amp pedestal does have 240 volts and it does feed into our coaches but if not properly separated by a properly sized neutral or maybe no neutral at all you are asking for troubles.

 An old style ( 3 conductor ) dryer has only 3 wires one of which is a ground.  You can use that,   using the ground as the neutral but it's not safe, the ground wire is too small and will overheat.   We know that this is probably done quite often but when someone turns on too many things   in the coach that ground wire will get hot, maybe start a fire and it might be inside the persons   house.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Ray Davis

[dl_racing427]

28 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

Rick,  Most on here know and understand exactly what you are saying.   We may not articulate it as well as you did.

 Our concern is for those who don't quite know that improperly tapping into a dryer receptacle can get you into serious trouble.    Yes a 50 amp pedestal does have 240 volts and it does feed into our coaches but if not properly separated by a properly sized neutral or maybe no neutral at all you are asking for troubles.

 An old style ( 3 conductor ) dryer has only 3 wires one of which is a ground.  You can use that,   using the ground as the neutral but it's not safe, the ground wire is too small and will overheat.   We know that this is probably done quite often but when someone turns on too many things   in the coach that ground wire will get hot, maybe start a fire and it might be inside the persons   house.

Another thing to consider if you do this.
Even if you and your family survive the fire, good luck getting your insurance company to pay for the damages. 😞

[waterskier_1]

Ray, I agree with your electrical analysis, but not with you presumption that previous posters know.  If they did, they would not be making comments that the OP "smoked" the refrigerator, or the coach.  In reality, there would be no damage INSIDE the coach, it is possible the ground or neutral might overheat, if sufficient load was applied.  But just the refrigerator, not likely.  Also, since the OP posted that everything else was working, we know he didn't fry the coach or the refrigerator.  Those statements clearly show a lack of understanding of 220 vs 110 in RV connections.  Some even denied that 220 Volts are ever connected to a RV.  

I really freely sorry for the OP with so many telling him he destroyed at least the refrigerator, and possibly the whole coach. 

[Dr4Film]

Here is the reason why so many thought that maybe he may have fried a lot inside his coach is that since he stated that he plugged into a three prong dryer receptacle in his house the assumption was that he used a three prong 30 amp dog-bone to do that. Coupled with the fact that there was very little information supplied to figure out EXACTLY what he had done only to find our much later that he had made up a 50 amp adapter to accomplish the connection.

The poster was focused on his refrigerator problem which actually turned out not to be related to anything other than a normal failure.

[rpasetto]

12 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Ray, I agree with your electrical analysis, but not with you presumption that previous posters know.  If they did, they would not be making comments that the OP "smoked" the refrigerator, or the coach.  In reality, there would be no damage INSIDE the coach, it is possible the ground or neutral might overheat, if sufficient load was applied.  But just the refrigerator, not likely.  Also, since the OP posted that everything else was working, we know he didn't fry the coach or the refrigerator.  Those statements clearly show a lack of understanding of 220 vs 110 in RV connections.  Some even denied that 220 Volts are ever connected to a RV.  

I really freely sorry for the OP with so many telling him he destroyed at least the refrigerator, and possibly the whole coach. 

I think the concern was the similar look of 30a 240v dryer plug (old style) and a 30a 120v RV plug (See Ray's post of a few days ago); the latter having many adapters to a 50a RV socket.  Combine that with the OP describing himself as a "Green horn" with no voltmeter, and not seeing a wiring diagram showing how he adapted to his dryer plug.  There were safety questions raised, I'm sure.  I know some of the members here have strong concerns for safety above all.

No offense to to the OP (Scott), but speaking for myself I would rather provide more detail than less.

 

[Dave Pumphrey]

If we had a pic of how the dryer cord is connected to the 50 amp outlet, early on, it would have been cler what we were dealing with. It would still be nice to see it.

It should have one of the hot legs from the cord going to both hot terminals on the outlet, & the ground going to both the neutral & ground terminals. The other hot leg on the cord would not be used. 

If the ground wire in the cord is less gauge that the hot wire, that would be the limiting factor in how much can be drawn. If both are 10 gauge, it would be 30 Amps max.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Dave Pumphrey
Lack of caffeine.

[6Wheels]

 good write-up is here: 30-Amp and 50-Amp RV Service: 7 Things You Need to Know | etrailer.com

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

2 hours ago, Dave Pumphrey said:

If we had a pic of how the dryer cord is connected to the 50 amp outlet, early on, it would have been cler what we were dealing with. It would still be nice to see it.

It should have one of the hot legs from the cord going to both hot terminals on the outlet, & the ground going to both the neutral & ground terminals. The other hot leg on the cord would not be used. 

If the ground wire in the cord is less gauge that the hot wire, that would be the limiting factor in how much can be drawn. If both are 10 gauge, it would be 30 Amps max.

Male and female ends of the pig tail. Reconfiguring it. It only had a ground...no neutral. The good news is everything in the RV is good, but the inverter board for the fridge is shot. I’m getting an RV elect. to install a legit plug in box at the house next week. Oh, never too much caffeine. It keeps me in the game on deployments! 😎

5 minutes ago, 6Wheels said:

 good write-up is here: 30-Amp and 50-Amp RV Service: 7 Things You Need to Know | etrailer.com

So awesome. Thank you. 

[Dave Pumphrey]

It would be good to see the receptacle with the cover off to see how it is wired.

 

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

Sorry for such a late reply. I’m active duty and have been out of pocket for awhile. Thank you for the help.

question: Is there a product/adapter that I can use to plug into my dryer plug and then plug my coach into already set up? A “pig tail” already set up for this? 
 

thank you again Sir.

James

[6Wheels]

Dryer plug is 240 VAC - RV is 120 VAC and is NOT compatible.

You are better off installing a dedicated breaker and the correct outlet for your coach.  If you are not competent and confident do not attempt this yourself.  The attachment should guide you through the process.  In my case I had to add a sub-panel to allow enough space to add the circuits.  I am an electrician and don't recommend this to an amateur due to code and safety reasons.

Wiring for 50 Amps.pdf

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

On 2/6/2021 at 2:52 PM, rpasetto said:

James, The plug and outlet pictures you posted are devices designed to connect 240v AC, not 120v AC as a 30amp RV plug and outlet.  When wired in this way, there's 240vAC between each of the angled slots in the outlet.  A 30 amp RV plug may look sort-of like the dryer plug, is made to plug into a 30 amp 120v RV outlet; voltage between the two angled slots should be 120vAC.  This is why we've been asking you to measure voltage between the two angled slots.

Your 2004 Endeavor is equipped with a 50amp plug for a 50 amp outlet which when used for an RV, supplies two separate 50 amp 120v 'legs'.  Depending on how you adapted the 240vAC plug on your coach to the 240vAC dryer plug in your house there may be some resultant damage or not. 

Do not plug in until you have a properly wired 50amp receptacle or an RV 50 amp to 30 amp adapter.   Also heed Tom's advice about your auto transfer switch and, if it is the recalled unit, obtain a safe replacement.   Once you are able to safely plug in to proper power, you can then test your appliances to be sure they're OK.  

The diagram below shows the voltage readings you should expect with that 50 amp outlet.  For a coach, the 120vAC readings, labelled "Hot1" and "Hot2" represent the Leg1 and Leg2 referred to earlier.  

Sorry for such a late reply. I’m active duty and am in and out consistently. Honestly not sure whom I’ve replied too at this point. Thank you for the detailed response. Will get someone here to set this up properly! Thank you again Sir for the help!!

[6Wheels]

I should clarify regarding RV voltage (this is covered extensively elsewhere).

There are NO 240 VAC circuits on your rig.  Your home's dryer is designed to run on 240 VAC.

The breaker you are installing for the RV is actually 2 120 VAC circuits and is wired such that they each can deliver 50A to each of the 2 120VAC circuits, a total of 100 Amps.

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

8 minutes ago, 6Wheels said:

Dryer plug is 240 VAC - RV is 120 VAC and is NOT compatible.

You are better off installing a dedicated breaker and the correct outlet for your coach.  If you are not competent and confident do not attempt this yourself.  The attachment should guide you through the process.  In my case I had to add a sub-panel to allow enough space to add the circuits.  I am an electrician and don't recommend this to an amateur due to code and safety reasons.

Wiring for 50 Amps.pdf 45.83 kB · 0 downloads

Super appreciate the help. I will go get the right person to help me. Again, thank you for the help and response!!!!

Got it! Thank you again for the help! Getting an electrician to come out and install. Super appreciate the help!!

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

7 hours ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

Sorry for such a late reply. I’m active duty and am in and out consistently. Honestly not sure whom I’ve replied too at this point. Thank you for the detailed response. Will get someone here to set this up properly! Thank you again Sir for the help!!

Here are the pictures of the “pig tail” we made. What do you think?

[wamcneil]

8 hours ago, Scott and Colleen Miller said:

...question: Is there a product/adapter that I can use to plug into my dryer plug and then plug my coach into already set up? A “pig tail” already set up for this? 
 

thank you again Sir.

James

No, there is not because it would not be code compliant.
The motorhome has two hot conductors, one neutral conductor and one ground wire. 
Your adapter has two hot conductors and a ground wire. So you’re sending neutral current down the ground wire in your adapter and then through the ground wires in your house. 
These days, the ground wire isn’t allowed to carry load currents. Using the ground wire for current is potentially unsafe. 
Cheers

Walter

[jacwjames]

The dryer outlet is wired with three wires, two 120 volt legs and a neutral, there is no ground.  There is no way you could make a pig tail that would work. 

You will be better off just putting in a new RV plug, either a 50 amp using 6awg with ground (Red, Black, White, and Green) or a 30 amp using 10awg with ground (black, white, green).  If you are close enough to the building you could put the receptacle at the service panel and just use an extension cord.  If not you can run conduit and install a receptacle close to where you need it.  It this case I'd just install an RV type panel like this http://www.rvparksupplies.com/p/503020AMPSMPOWER/

It will give you the full 50 amp service and you wouldn't have to worry about voltage drop and extension cords. 

I just wired my RV outlet in the garage I just built, bought 75 feet of 6 awg wire for $170 on ebay, best price I could find you can get by with a 8awg ground but I decided to stick with 6 awg for all 4 wires.  I mounted an exterior service panel where my power was already existing to an RV panel similar to the one above and then pulled the cable through the buried conduit that I had installed prior to building the garage.  Although the circuit was already protected with a 50 amp breaker in the basement I decided to add a breaker in the exterior panel, that way I could isolate while I was working on the circuit.  I then mounted an interior service panel wand 50 amp outlet below it that I can turn ON/OFF in the service panel while plugging in.  I can watch my Progressive Surge Protector display while I power up and confirm everything is good. 

FWIW I built my own house and did all my own wiring.  This last week the local electrical coop was installing fiber optic cable to all the houses and I was there when they pulled the wire into the meter box.  When I put in the meter panel I installed 2 separate 200 amp safety switches so I could isolate either of my service panels.  The service guy commented that it was a very neat/clean job and asked who did it, I told him "I did", he said that when they open up some meter boxes they look sloppy.  So you get what you pay for. 

I also installed 3 other 50 amp outlets besides the one I just did in my garage.  It's convenient to be able to have a plug in multiple places.   Lots of choices. 

 

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

Thank you very much for the insight! Super grateful!!!

[Scott and Colleen Miller]

1 hour ago, wamcneil said:

No, there is not because it would not be code compliant.
The motorhome has two hot conductors, one neutral conductor and one ground wire. 
Your adapter has two hot conductors and a ground wire. So you’re sending neutral current down the ground wire in your adapter and then through the ground wires in your house. 
These days, the ground wire isn’t allowed to carry load currents. Using the ground wire for current is potentially unsafe. 
Cheers

Walter

Thank you Walter!

[Tom Cherry]

I posted, I think, a Whirlpool set of instructions for how a dryer (new one) can be configured for different outlets.

To be FULLY NEC Complaint, You must configure the dryer to work with the receptacle. 

Assuming that all know that our motor homes actually do have, potentially, 240 VAC incoming and that unless one has a special appliance, which some do, I believe, we only use the 120 circuits....then this is how a conventional dryer three wire dryer circuit can be configured to work.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/AC-WORKS-Dryer-Adapter-3-Prong-30-Amp-Dryer-Plug-to-4-Prong-Dryer-Female-Connector-Adapter-AD10301430/310466457

The main panel in the house must be configured as follows...

L1 or Black to a double Pole 220 V 30 amp breaker. L2 or Red to the other side. That puts L1 and L2 out of "Phase". That means that the Neutral will not be carrying TWICE or 2 X the load. If you do not understand that, then google. Those of us that only have 120 VAC Onan 8KW genny must be careful NOT to overload as we only have a single Neutral. Therefore, when we load up each side, L1 and L2, we are actually loading up the Neutral to 70 Amps (35 Amp on each L1 and L2). If you were a member of the original group, you might have read that the only failure of a contactor in an HW50C Progressive ever reported to Tommy Fanelli was when someone put the unit on the downstream side of the ATS. The contactor is rated for 60 Amps on each pole (L1, L2 and Neutral). When the individual loaded up the Genny, there was 75 amps on the neutral and that fried the contactor. 

If you look at the Home Depot unit and there are several articles written by folks with both electrical and code knowledge, the dryer wiring has to have the White Neutral connected to the Neutral Buss in the main panel. Then the Green wire in the picture is connected to the Ground of a normal 120 Circuit.

That complies with code...as subtle as the nuance is. 

MOST of the 3 to 4 wire conversions that folks do when they get a new dryer is just install a 4 wire receptacle and then jumper the Ground to the Neutral. I THINK that the code changed circa 1995 or so. 

In this particular case, the OP's adapter probably has that done.  This topic has been going on for so long that I cannot remember. 

THe OP's rig is has only 2 AC units. What he is doing, in effect, is providing a Circuit Breaker protected 30 Amp service to his MH when typically, that was intended for 50 amps. Therefore, if he uses all of his appliances, then he may overload or "trip" the dryer circuit breaker. SInce he has removed the original Gas/Electric refrigerator, he may have a little more "latitude".

IDEALLY and from a CODE standpoint, he needs a fully code compliant 50 amp breaker and receptacle. 

If he uses the Home Depot adapter and his 50 amp service, then he needs to be aware that it is ONLY for temporary service to provide power while loading and unloading and that he only has 30 amps of power for Line 1 and Line 2. He can NOT fully load either up to the theoretical 50 amp service. He should NOT plug in any high draw appliances such as a space heater. He can run his AC's as one is on L1 and the other is on L2, He should NOT run his Water Heater on ELectric nor should he use his Microwave.

He does NOT have, as many might not be aware of, the Intellitec EMS or Load Shedding unit. BUT, that unit, since it measures L1 to L2 would "THINK" that there was a FULL 50 Amp service and it would NOT do the proper load shedding. When you use a 30 amp, single "phase" (which is a misnomer", the Intellitec THINKS that you only have a FULL 30 amp service on ONE side...

In effect, with his adapter or the Home Depot kit, you actually have 30 amps on each leg.

That is my take on it...

[wamcneil]

5 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

...THe OP's rig is has only 2 AC units. What he is doing, in effect, is providing a Circuit Breaker protected 30 Amp service to his MH when typically, that was intended for 50 amps. Therefore, if he uses all of his appliances, then he may overload or "trip" the dryer circuit breaker. SInce he has removed the original Gas/Electric refrigerator, he may have a little more "latitude".

IDEALLY and from a CODE standpoint, he needs a fully code compliant 50 amp breaker and receptacle. ..

 

From a code perspective, is there any reason why the 50a receptacle needs the be wired with a 50a breaker? 

If you've got a 50a breaker, you need 50a wire. Bit I'm not sure it would be a code violation to wire the 50a receptacle with a 30a breaker and 10 ga wire.  

Nothing unsafe about that. But as you noted, just need to be aware that you can't run more than 30a worth of loads on each leg of power. That would be a lot like plugging 4 hair dryers into a bathroom 15a circuit. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know you can't turn on more than one hair dryer at any given time.

Cheers,

Walter