FASS system on RR8R Chassis

[vanwill52]

Ken,

My choice between the FASS and competing systems was based purely on the fact that the "always on" FASS pump bypasses a great deal of fuel through the filters constantly.  YES, it does require a dedicated return hose to the tank.  NO, you cannot use the existing return line from the lift pump.  It's like having a fuel filtration system operating fulltime.  I had a serious problem with algae in my fuel tank several years ago and even put together a homemade "fuel polishing" system to clean my tank.  It worked, and got me going again.  I installed the FASS system to help permanently keep that algae and other contaminants from causing future problems.  And initially I changed the TWO primary filters TWICE very soon after installing the FASS system.  Since having the algae problem, I always cut open my fuel filters to see what they have "trapped".

I'm glad to see "bikedavem" (sorry, don't know your name) commenting that adding the FASS (or any other) system made no perceptible difference in performance.  Any perceptions of increased performance are purely between the user's ears (kind of like curing wandering with different shocks).  But you are POSSIBLY increasing the life of your CAPS pump by pumping through it under pressure a great deal more fuel than it needs, thereby giving it uninterrupted lubrication and cooling.

Another benefit of the FASS (or other brand) system is that IFF you install a fuel pressure gage at the inlet to the CAPS pump (OUTLET of the secondary fuel filter), you will have an "early warning" system to let you know a filter will soon need changing.  I no longer change filters based on time or mileage.  I replace them when the pressure at the CAPS pump falls from 15 PSI to 10 PSI or lower.

Van

[Cubflyer]

Vanwill52,

Totally agree... I'm looking for the fuel cleaning also.....Thanks!

[JDCrow]

Thanks Van for chiming in. I’ve poured over almost everything you have posted, and truly appreciate all you have done for the Monaco Community. 
 

I need your help on this then. 
 

If the FASS system I purchased and installed doesn’t work correctly by design, am I damaging the engine?

The 8.3 return line comes off the injectors, under the cover, and back through the primer (lift) pump on the side closest to block if I’m understanding what over read and looked at. It then is returned to the tank to be re-filtered again once it’s drawn up by the FASS
 

If it doesn’t work like that, do I need attached a line from the manifold end and return it to tank? 
 

The instructions from the kit shows it returning. Again, if it is hurting the engine, I need to know. I cannot afford to rebuild and engine down the road. 

[vanwill52]

1 hour ago, JDCrow said:

Thanks Van for chiming in. I’ve poured over almost everything you have posted, and truly appreciate all you have done for the Monaco Community. 
 

I need your help on this then. 
 

If the FASS system I purchased and installed doesn’t work correctly by design, am I damaging the engine?

The 8.3 return line comes off the injectors, under the cover, and back through the primer (lift) pump on the side closest to block if I’m understanding what over read and looked at. It then is returned to the tank to be re-filtered again once it’s drawn up by the FASS
 

If it doesn’t work like that, do I need attached a line from the manifold end and return it to tank? 
 

The instructions from the kit shows it returning. Again, if it is hurting the engine, I need to know. I cannot afford to rebuild and engine down the road. 

Perhaps the FASS folks have changed their installation instructions since my installation.  What you have posted is different than what I had with my Titanium 095 unit, which included two filters and the pump mounted to a manifold.  I ended up with THREE fuel filters--TWO on the FASS unit plus my existing secondary filter.  My secondary (final) fuel filter is now a 2 micron one.  Why not use as fine a filter as possible?  Two micron filters might have over-burdened the original CAPS inlet-section gear pump's ability to suck fuel from a tank 25 feet away.  But now there is positive pressure there at all times.

I eliminated the original PRIMARY filter and mounted the FASS pump in its location.

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that the OEM return line from the CAPS pump through the manifold atop the lift pump returned a modest amount of fuel to the tank from the CAPS pump.  That small line stays intact after the FASS installation, but is not capable of handling the much larger flow from the FASS pump, at least without triggering some kind of fault code from the ECM.

I questioned the need for the separate dedicated return line for the FASS pump, but a call to tech support and a conversation with a savvy tech convinced me it was required.  I think the FASS pump is a simple high-capacity gear pump with a pressure relief valve to divert excess flow back to the fuel tank.  If you let the FASS pump exhaust its excess fuel through the existing return line, you would cause the pressure in that line to increase, decreasing the pressure differential from inlet-to-outlet of the CAPS pump...the very pressure that you are trying to INCREASE.  Better to let the CAPS pump stay pressurized at the 15 PSI of the FASS pump.  Also, if you run a separate dedicated return line from the FASS pump to your fuel tank, you can measure the pressure at the inlet of the CAPS pump as a reliable indicator of when your filters are becoming clogged before they actually begin starving the CAPS pump.  I had to drill and tap a 1/8 NPT hole in the top of my secondary filter housing to mount the gage sending unit.  Many coaches already have a tapping in the location that merely needs to have an existing plug removed.

And let me repeat that I installed the FASS pump as an "insurance policy" for my CAPS pump, and not for any performance reason.  Raising your CAPS inlet pressure does nothing to increase the HP or torque of your engine, any more than raising boost pressure will.  I did plan to (and later did) install an Ag Solutions "chip" and thought the FASS pump would be a good idea for an OEM installation that might already be straining the capabilities of the CAPS pump's original delivery system.

I would suggest that you use this opportunity to add a quarter-turn ball valve to the INLET of your FASS pump.  You can close this valve when changing filters, and even if you are on a hill nose-down, all the fuel will not drain back into the tank.

Van

JD, sorry, but I just noticed you are installing the "pump-only" version of the FASS system.  There must be some internal bypass fluid circuitry on that model and perhaps it does not need a dedicated return line.  As long as you maintain a positive pressure to the inlet of the CAPS pump, you have accomplished the objective of trying to get max life out of your CAPS pump.  In the pump-only version of FASS, they must be expecting to exhaust all unused fuel through the original return line.

Van

[jacwjames]

I have been actively reading these posts on the FASS and Airdog fuel pump systems as I'm contemplating installation of a system.  I tend to spend copious amounts of time reading/learning prior to making any type of decision like this.'

As usual, Van W has posted information that is informative and useful.  I was going to post over the weekend and ask what the benefit of having the FASS system with the filters versus without.  The recommendation of having a completely separate return line makes sense along with the pressure gauge as an indication of a plugged filter.  One of my concerns was the cost of the FASS filters and when to change.  In the past I had changed my fuel filters on an annual basis or if I thought I had a problem. 

I am getting very close to making a decision an appreciate everyone's input on this type of installation.

[JDCrow]

Thanks Van, 

 

I'll figure out the 1/4 valve for placement on the outlet of the Primary filter. The secondary is still the original set up that has a drain on the bottom. 

And yes, just insurance for the CAPPS. A fueled body is a happy body no matter what that body is. 

Thanks again for your insight. Ordering Monaco Watts front and Rear Cross today to help keep thing thing between the lines. The TRW is in the works as well. I believe I need to pull the Shepherd to see what the stamp for cross reference, but thats a whole other thread to start.

 

JD

[vanwill52]

1 hour ago, jacwjames said:

I have been actively reading these posts on the FASS and Airdog fuel pump systems as I'm contemplating installation of a system.  I tend to spend copious amounts of time reading/learning prior to making any type of decision like this.'

As usual, Van W has posted information that is informative and useful.  I was going to post over the weekend and ask what the benefit of having the FASS system with the filters versus without.  The recommendation of having a completely separate return line makes sense along with the pressure gauge as an indication of a plugged filter.  One of my concerns was the cost of the FASS filters and when to change.  In the past I had changed my fuel filters on an annual basis or if I thought I had a problem. 

I am getting very close to making a decision an appreciate everyone's input on this type of installation.

Jim, although FASS has filters with their brand on them, the website has a cross-reference to common filter types.  And you will only be changing them when they actually need it, if you have a pressure gage to warn you.

1 hour ago, JDCrow said:

Thanks Van, 

 

I'll figure out the 1/4 valve for placement on the outlet of the Primary filter. The secondary is still the original set up that has a drain on the bottom. 

And yes, just insurance for the CAPPS. A fueled body is a happy body no matter what that body is. 

Thanks again for your insight. Ordering Monaco Watts front and Rear Cross today to help keep thing thing between the lines. The TRW is in the works as well. I believe I need to pull the Shepherd to see what the stamp for cross reference, but thats a whole other thread to start.

 

JD

JD, perhaps I was not clear, but the ball valve I installed on the original fuel line from the tank, the one that normally went to the inlet of the PRIMARY filter.  If you install the ball valve anywhere else, fuel will still drain back to the tank when you change filters.

Van

[Scotty Hutto]

Just for the edification of those folks who may curious, the CAPS system (Cummins Accumulator Pump System) was used on Cummins ISC and ISL engines manufactured from approx 1998 until sometime in 2003.  Please note these dates are based on the engine manufacture, not the coach model year.  For example, my 2006 Diplomat has an ISL400 with a manufacture date in early 2005.

In approximately 2003, Cummins changed from CAPS to the High Pressure Common Rail System (HPCR).

[JDCrow]

Which is a better injection system. The big 3 pickup makers are vacillating on pumps as problem arise. I think I read Ram is going back to a CP3 that has been redesigned to handle the pressure/volume. CP4 failures were creeping up. And Chevy went away from them (CP4) all together. I believe they run Denso now. Feel free to let me know if I need to edit. I’m a Ford Guy. 

[Scotty Hutto]

That’s a question above my pay grade. 🤣  But I’m sure we have members who can weigh in on that!

[Cubflyer]

My FASS Titanium Pump and filter kit came Monday, I've been working on the install.  

I found a conduit by the left frame rail that runs from the back to the front and 'fished' a 1/2" return hose from the "primary filter" near the A/C bay just aft of the left rear wheels. Photo attached

Built a bracket to bolt the FASS pump and filters to that bolts to the original filter bracket out of some 3" angle iron.  Photo coming...

Built a fitting to combine the fuel tank overflow/vent, (a 3/4" pipe thread tank opening) into a FASS 1/2" return pipe and a 1/2" tank vent.  Photo attached.

Now I need to find a good place to pick up a ignition on power source... I found these (photo included) black squares with wires going to them in the Battery Bay area... are they "Terminal blocks"?? photo included.

Comments?

Ken

TITANIUM FASS .HEIC

Edited April 1, 2021 by Cubflyer
add photo

[jacwjames]

The black rectangles are fuse blocks, which appear to be the ones that protect the engine ECM and associated circuits. 

[Cubflyer]

Jim J,

So do you think I could pick up a "switched ignition" power there to control my FASS pump relay?

[jacwjames]

Do you have a BIRD, there is an ignition sense wire going to the BIRD on my coach along with a battery maintainer lockout relay. 

I would be hesitant disturbing those fuse blocks. 

[JDCrow]

Strange as my bird did not come on with just the Key turned. I didn’t try it with the engine running. I hunted around till I found an wire that lit with just the key on. 
 

Your install looks slick! Nice job. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by JDCrow
Spelling

[vanwill52]

I'm not sure how well you understand 12VDC electrics, but adding a multiple fuse block SWITCHED ON BY IGNITION in your rear engine area will prove to be useful many times.  HOWEVER, do not just connect to an ignition key signal and try to power whatever from that signal.  Use that signal to power a contactor (relay) to power a fuse block that you install that can then be used for virtually anything.  Let the contactor connect to a major battery +12VDC post and then power your fuse block from that contactor.

I've installed such a fuse block and have since used it for my FASS pump, my external Allison cooler fan, my EGT gage, my fuel pressure gage, etc.  It is invaluable IMHO to have a multiple fuse block available in the rear engine compartment to power any number of devices that you only want to be powered only when the ignition key is "ON".

BTW, I have little experience with the BIRD system, but compared to the Blue Sea ML-ACR (first introduced to our members by electric/electronic/WiFi/electronic shitter) expert Paul Whittle, the BIRD is an unnecesarily complicated system that the ML-ACR condensed into one SIMPLE inexpensive device, which has a no-BS lifetime warranty, is easily installed, easily UNDERSTOOD, and works WITHOUT GLICTHCES.  

You mention a "FASS relay".  I'm not sure I that was included in my Titanium FASS installation, but I understood it was a high-amperage device and required a supply capable of supplying its needs.  My installation has been problem-free, and with a cockpit-mounted fuel pressure gage measuring fuel pressure at the INLET TO THE CAPS PUMP, I have an "early warning" indicator of when I need to replace fuel filters.

Although I do not strongly advocate the FASS brand over any other brand, I like the feature of constantly filtering a large volume of the contents of my fuel tank...and a cockpit-mounted fuel pressure gage that alerts me to a filter becoming clogged long before it causes me to pull off the road at reduced power;

[JDCrow]

Well not sure if that was directed to me, but yes I used a relay. 
 

Thanks again for insight. The pressure gauge is on my todo list. 

[Cubflyer]

Van,

I'm totally with you on all this.... as for my knowledge on electrical systems... very knowledgeable... In a past life, I installed avionics and other electrical components in aircraft. 12v, 24v, and commercial airliners.

I have not unpackaged the FASS electrical harness yet (that's tomorrow's project) but it is my understanding that they use ign. switched on power to control a relay that is connected (with a large fuse) directly to the chassis batteries (not the "House" batteries) to power the pump, if that is not how their harness works, it will be the way I make it work....

I do like your idea of having a "buss" (fuse block) controlled by the ign switch in the "on" position, located in the back by the engine.  All the items you are powering with that are great features!

[Rikadoo]

So here is my before an after pics, i removed the primary filter an replaced it with the FASS system, the vehicle has a secondary filter which i left in place. So coupled with the FASS system i have a total of 3 fuel filters.

[jacwjames]

13 hours ago, vanwill52 said:

I'm not sure how well you understand 12VDC electrics, but adding a multiple fuse block SWITCHED ON BY IGNITION in your rear engine area will prove to be useful many times.  HOWEVER, do not just connect to an ignition key signal and try to power whatever from that signal.  Use that signal to power a contactor (relay) to power a fuse block that you install that can then be used for virtually anything.  Let the contactor connect to a major battery +12VDC post and then power your fuse block from that contactor.

I've installed such a fuse block and have since used it for my FASS pump, my external Allison cooler fan, my EGT gage, my fuel pressure gage, etc.  It is invaluable IMHO to have a multiple fuse block available in the rear engine compartment to power any number of devices that you only want to be powered only when the ignition key is "ON".

BTW, I have little experience with the BIRD system, but compared to the Blue Sea ML-ACR (first introduced to our members by electric/electronic/WiFi/electronic shitter) expert Paul Whittle, the BIRD is an unnecesarily complicated system that the ML-ACR condensed into one SIMPLE inexpensive device, which has a no-BS lifetime warranty, is easily installed, easily UNDERSTOOD, and works WITHOUT GLICTHCES.  

You mention a "FASS relay".  I'm not sure I that was included in my Titanium FASS installation, but I understood it was a high-amperage device and required a supply capable of supplying its needs.  My installation has been problem-free, and with a cockpit-mounted fuel pressure gage measuring fuel pressure at the INLET TO THE CAPS PUMP, I have an "early warning" indicator of when I need to replace fuel filters.

Although I do not strongly advocate the FASS brand over any other brand, I like the feature of constantly filtering a large volume of the contents of my fuel tank...and a cockpit-mounted fuel pressure gage that alerts me to a filter becoming clogged long before it causes me to pull off the road at reduced power;

Van,

I think this is one of the reasons I tend to wait, read, digest, and decide what direction I want to go.

I like the idea of installing a fuse block for these upgrades, any recommendation on make/model. 

I think I have enough room in my passenger side rear run bay to install a fuse block, I assume it would be OK to wire it in on the downstream side of the chassis battery disconnect so that it is completely isolated when the disconnect is off.  I think everything would be in easy reach and protected from the weather. 

 

 

[vanwill52]

2 hours ago, jacwjames said:

Van,

I think this is one of the reasons I tend to wait, read, digest, and decide what direction I want to go.

I like the idea of installing a fuse block for these upgrades, any recommendation on make/model. 

I think I have enough room in my passenger side rear run bay to install a fuse block, I assume it would be OK to wire it in on the downstream side of the chassis battery disconnect so that it is completely isolated when the disconnect is off.  I think everything would be in easy reach and protected from the weather. 

 

 

Jim, I'm going to try to attach some pix of the fuse block installation.  I got the battery+ from the RRB (rear run bay).  It feeds a continuous duty contactor that is triggered by an on-with-ignition source in the terminal block above the contactor.  The diode is there as spike insurance, since some of the ignition terminals are used as inputs to the ECM.  The output of the contactor (2 AWG) goes to the rear of the RRB and into the engine compartment and feeds a Blue Sea 10-circuit fuse panel.  I've used the fuse panel to supply any number of loads, including my EGT gage, Fuel Pressure gage, FASS pump, and my externally mounted transmission cooler fan.  Walt Heathcock gave me the trans cooler.  I think it was from a Diplomat.  I wanted to get the transmission cooling out of the engine radiator before my trip to Alaska in 2016.

To accommodate having (8) T-145 size batteries (NOT T-105, the normal choice) I had to move my engine battery from the normal location in the battery bay.  It was an 8D and too large to wrestle into the location shown in the last pix, so I put two 12V truck batteries in parallel behind the engine radiator.  My house battery bank is approximately 1000 AH and is great for dry camping.  I always thought that "sacred cow" about never mixing battery types had no technical validity.  My mixed set has performed well for five years now.

You can also see the Blue Sea ML-ACR installation between the battery trays and RRB.  That was a great addition.  It replaced the Solid State Isolator, the Lambert Charger, and the Big Boy.  Now, if I ever chose to install a higher capacity alternator, it can be any garden-variety one--doesn't need to be DUVAC.

Van

[jacwjames]

Van,

Thanks for all the info and pictures, as usual more then enough information to keep be busy for a while.

I had already looked at the Blue Sea fuse block, they seem a good value.   Your Electrical bay is very similar to mine, I think there might be enough room to put the fuse block in there which would reduce the length of the higher awg wire. 

I also see the FASS pump location, I'd have to check if it would be possible to do the same on mine.  Did you use the same supply line from the fuel tank to the transfer pump or install a new one.  I read where you did install a separate return line.   I have not looked at the top of my tank to see what options I have there both on he supply and the return line. 

Jim

[vanwill52]

35 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Van,

Thanks for all the info and pictures, as usual more then enough information to keep be busy for a while.

I had already looked at the Blue Sea fuse block, they seem a good value.   Your Electrical bay is very similar to mine, I think there might be enough room to put the fuse block in there which would reduce the length of the higher awg wire. 

I also see the FASS pump location, I'd have to check if it would be possible to do the same on mine.  Did you use the same supply line from the fuel tank to the transfer pump or install a new one.  I read where you did install a separate return line.   I have not looked at the top of my tank to see what options I have there both on he supply and the return line. 

Jim

Jim, I used the same supply line from the main fuel tank that fed into the original primary filter.  IIRC, I used the same line originally going from the outlet of the primary filter to the lift pump (look it up, the connections are not intuitive) to plug into the outlet of the FASS pump.  I know I did not have to have any additional hoses made.  I only removed and discarded some lines from the original lift pump.  So, the only line I had to ADD was the long 1/2" return line from the FASS pump to the tank.  My tank had an unused tapping in it...probably for an Aqua-Hot option, which I do not have.  I used that for my return line connection to the fuel tank.  I'm sure you could tee into any other fitting, being sure that there was not any significant restriction.

Let me know if any of this is not clear.

Van

[bikedavem]

My understanding is that by installing the FASS pump, the injection pump will no longer need to suck fuel all the way from the fuel tank, and a larger volume of fuel will be run through the injection pump with a greater excess being returned to the tank through the original return line. This excess volume of fuel passed through the injection pump will improve cooling and lubrication, lower stress on the pump and increase longevity.

My installation is of the bare pump without the additional filters.  I'm not understanding the running of a return line (to the tank) on the dual filter FASS pump installations. It seems like one would like to pass all the excess fuel through the injection pump and then return to the tank. Could someone please explain what am I missing?

2002 HR Endeavor, 330 ISC

[vanwill52]

18 hours ago, bikedavem said:

My understanding is that by installing the FASS pump, the injection pump will no longer need to suck fuel all the way from the fuel tank, and a larger volume of fuel will be run through the injection pump with a greater excess being returned to the tank through the original return line. This excess volume of fuel passed through the injection pump will improve cooling and lubrication, lower stress on the pump and increase longevity.

My installation is of the bare pump without the additional filters.  I'm not understanding the running of a return line (to the tank) on the dual filter FASS pump installations. It seems like one would like to pass all the excess fuel through the injection pump and then return to the tank. Could someone please explain what am I missing?

2002 HR Endeavor, 330 ISC

Dave?  I think the difference is that the model(s) that does not have the filters and manifold has an internal bypassing pressure relief valve.  It recirculates the excess fuel from the output of the pump back to the input of the pump internally.  At least I think that is what I read when I was deciding which pump model to buy.

There is nothing wrong with doing it that way.  You still have positive pressure at the CAPS pump inlet and will never starve it.  You will also be pushing more fuel through the CAPS pump and back to the tank through the existing return line in the lift pump manifold.  You just won't have "full-time fuel polishing (filtration)".  The amount of fuel that the models with fuel filters is constantly filtering is quite large.  In my case, it's over 90 GPH.  I noticed that with all new filters when I installed the system, it took only a short time before the primary filter clogged enough to drop the pressure at the CAPS pump from 15 PSI to 10 PSI.  If you have a remote fuel pressure gage, it is a handly indicator of when filters need changing.