FASS system on RR8R Chassis

[bikedavem]

4 hours ago, vanwill52 said:

Dave?  I think the difference is that the model(s) that does not have the filters and manifold has an internal bypassing pressure relief valve.  It recirculates the excess fuel from the output of the pump back to the input of the pump internally.  At least I think that is what I read when I was deciding which pump model to buy.

There is nothing wrong with doing it that way.  You still have positive pressure at the CAPS pump inlet and will never starve it.  You will also be pushing more fuel through the CAPS pump and back to the tank through the existing return line in the lift pump manifold.  You just won't have "full-time fuel polishing (filtration)".  The amount of fuel that the models with fuel filters is constantly filtering is quite large.  In my case, it's over 90 GPH.  I noticed that with all new filters when I installed the system, it took only a short time before the primary filter clogged enough to drop the pressure at the CAPS pump from 15 PSI to 10 PSI.  If you have a remote fuel pressure gage, it is a handly indicator of when filters need changing.

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense to me now.

I have recently installed a fuel pressure gage with the sender just downstream of the second stock filter.  I'm seeing 12 psi at Idle and 10 psi at 100% power with 10,000 miles on my fuel filters.  It will be interesting to see the pressures after the filter replacement.

[Jeff H]

On 3/29/2021 at 11:00 AM, Scotty Hutto said:

Just for the edification of those folks who may curious, the CAPS system (Cummins Accumulator Pump System) was used on Cummins ISC and ISL engines manufactured from approx 1998 until sometime in 2003.  Please note these dates are based on the engine manufacture, not the coach model year.  For example, my 2006 Diplomat has an ISL400 with a manufacture date in early 2005.

In approximately 2003, Cummins changed from CAPS to the High Pressure Common Rail System (HPCR).

So the issue with the CAPS is not a concern for engines with the HPCR and the installation of a FASS system is unnecessary?

[JDCrow]

Yea we are talking CAPS

If your HPCR is similar to other Cummins systems, then you could research for its weak points.

Many in the pickup world use the FASS/Air Dog to have a constant, clean flow of fuel to their main pumps. 
 

Also Van mentioned fuel polishing. It seems to be a positive thing for coach’s that have diesel that sits, as algae can become an issue. It will keep your fuel clean constantly. His experience listed above helped him. He could elaborate on the benefits.

At any rate, research it and see if it’s something you need. Us with CAPS can have a ticking bomb. 

[vanwill52]

31 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

Yea we are talking CAPS

If your HPCR is similar to other Cummins systems, then you could research for its weak points.

Many in the pickup world use the FASS/Air Dog to have a constant, clean flow of fuel to their main pumps. 
 

Also Van mentioned fuel polishing. It seems to be a positive thing for coach’s that have diesel that sits, as algae can become an issue. It will keep your fuel clean constantly. His experience listed above helped him. He could elaborate on the benefits.

At any rate, research it and see if it’s something you need. Us with CAPS can have a ticking bomb. 

I tend to post only on things with which I have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (because I feel the spectre of my old friend Bill D breathing over my shoulder?)  I can say that I had a problem with algae in my fuel, even though I only park over extended periods with a full tank.  I built my own fuel polishing setup.  It removed quite a bit of contaminant.  That was two years before the FASS installation.  As I reported, in a short time after the FASS installation, I had to change a PRIMARY filter (the one on the FASS manifold).  It had the same appearance as the problem I had experienced before "polishing" the fuel.  I spent quite a bit of effort and money on my homemade fuel polishing rig, and it APPEARED to work...it trapped a lot of "black slime".  After that, I thought I was home free.  I used biocides for the fuel regularly.  And yet, when I installed the FASS system, it clogged up a primary filter with the same "black slime" in a short time although I thought I had totally removed the contaminants with my fuel polishing rig.

What I've taken away from the experience is that a fuel pressure gage located at the OUTLET of the secondary filter (the last one before the CAPS pump) is worthwhile even if you never install any sort of auxiliary fuel pump (FASS, Air Dog, etc.).  What you get from the fuel pressure gage is an "early warning" that your filters are becoming clogged...BEFORE you starve the CAPS pump, experience power loss, and have to pull off the road.  I've always changed my filters by date-in-service.  Now, I only replace them when they show EARLY indications of needing attention.

I like the fuel polishing capability of the FASS Titanium system enough to pay the premium for it compared to the FASS pump-only system.  But I have neither quarrel nor condescention for those who choose the pump-only configuration.  Either one will forestall an early demise to your CAPS pump.

As I always try to say, YMMV, and it's your coach...do as you see fit.

Thanks for this great group that is moving steadily to its beginnings, when it told you HOW TO do stuff, instead of YOU NEED AN EXPERT to do it for you.

Van

[Cubflyer]

Making progress on my FASS system (fuel polisher and fulltime lift pump) install.... I'm doing this on my 2003 HR Endeavor (Monaco) RR8R chassis.

I 'tapped into' the "Ignition" on power up front in the FWD LH basement compartment , used an open fuse holder and routed the wire back to the RH Rear Battery bay where I (when the fuse holder gets here) plan to mount a remote IGN buss. (to control the PASS pump and any other accessories (electric FP gauge).....

Hooked up the relay power wires to the chassis batteries and did a quick ops check of the pump by touching the ign on wire to the + of the battery, pump ran so quiet I did not know it was working until the fuel started coming out where I left the second filter loose!  Wow did it pump!

Should get the fuse holder/buss and the return hose I ordered later this week.... hook them up and be set to go!

Ken

[JDCrow]

Looking great! 

[Cubflyer]

Return hose and fuse block came in and I finished up the install.... cranked it up, fired right off and ran smooth as glass! Spent the rest of the day securing the wire harness and return hose.  Installed a new secondary filter (filter with water sensor connector) that is just before the CAPS pump/injector.  I can not imagine that EVER indicating there is water to be drained with this FASS system installed!

Can't wait to test drive it!

Ken

[jacwjames]

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on ordering a Fass system with the additional filters, I like the idea of additional filtering.

For those of you that have purchased the system, what kit PN did you order and from where?   I did a search and there are a number of options out there with a wide range of pricing. 

[Cubflyer]

I got mine from American Diesel Performance, in MO....  TS-165G-P.... just under $700 shipped to my door.

you will need a long (34+ft) 1/2" fuel hose to run back to the fuel tank.  There was a round "conduit" that passes from the suspension area in the back to the suspension area in the front (on the drivers side) where I routed the hose and some wiring thru.

Ken

[vanwill52]

2 hours ago, jacwjames said:

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on ordering a Fass system with the additional filters, I like the idea of additional filtering.

For those of you that have purchased the system, what kit PN did you order and from where?   I did a search and there are a number of options out there with a wide range of pricing. 

Note that one of the major differences in these systems is whether they are pump-only, or pump + filters.  Some of them have very high delivery rates, but I can't imagine anyone with a Monaco needing more than the "standard" of approximately 95-120 GPM.

Bear in mind that there is no performance advantage.  You are simply hoping to extend the life of your CAPS pump and make filter changes easier.  As one poster noted, you can change your final filter to a 2 micron.  If you choose the additional filter version, you get full-time fuel filtering.

[dl_racing427]

19 hours ago, vanwill52 said:

Note that one of the major differences in these systems is whether they are pump-only, or pump + filters.  Some of them have very high delivery rates, but I can't imagine anyone with a Monaco needing more than the "standard" of approximately 95-120 GPM.

Bear in mind that there is no performance advantage.  You are simply hoping to extend the life of your CAPS pump and make filter changes easier.  As one poster noted, you can change your final filter to a 2 micron.  If you choose the additional filter version, you get full-time fuel filtering.

WOW, 120 GPM???  That's several times what most truck stop fuel nozzles flow. 😲
I think you mean GPH, and even that is way beyond what even a 600 HP diesel would require.

[vanwill52]

4 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

WOW, 120 GPM???  That's several times what most truck stop fuel nozzles flow. 😲
I think you mean GPH, and even that is way beyond what even a 600 HP diesel would require.

Oops!  Yes, of course, it's GPH.  Thanks for catching that.

[jacwjames]

Van,

What GPH system did you install, where did you purchase.  Did you buy the kit or just the pump?

[vanwill52]

5 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Van,

What GPH system did you install, where did you purchase.  Did you buy the kit or just the pump?

Jim, I don't see the exact FASS system that I installed.  It was 95 GPH.          Perhaps it has been replaced by TS D02 100G,  approximately $649 from the FASSRIDE.com site.  This is a 100 GPH pump assembled onto a manifold with the two filters attached. Titanium Signature Series Diesel Fuel Pump 100GPH Dodge Cummins 5.9L 1989-1993 (TS D02 100G) - Fassride 

You have the choice basically between the pump with or without the filters and manifold.  I chose the pump/manifold/filters version simply because I wanted to have the full-time filtering.  With this version you MUST install a separate 1/2" return line.  You cannot utilized the existing return line from the lift pump manifold.  With full-time filtering, it might surprise you how quickly your first primary filter needs changing.  I now have three fuel filters, and the final one is 2 micron.

I installed a remote pressure gage to give me an advance warning of when filters need to be changed.

Be aware that you must purchase directly from FASS or through an AUTHORIZED distributor to get a warranty.  None sold on Amazon come with the warranty.  The prices seem to be almost identical no matter where you purchase.  Let me know if I can be of more help.

[jacwjames]

Van,

As usual, all good information.  I had read about the warranty. 

I'll do some checking and see what I find. 

[jacwjames]

For those of you that have done the FASS or Airdog installation, did you bypass the transfer pump or did you leave the fuel lines connected, what are the Pro's and Con's of either?  I've read that by leaving it place and connected you could reactivate it at a later date, not sure it would ever be needed but seems logical.

[Rikadoo]

I too have the RR8R chassis, what i found when running the 1/2 in line is in thr center of the rv just off to the side are some conduit pipes, one has wiring going thru it, the other side had very little in it. So i used my fish tape to go thru it, connected the hose an pulled it thru, once in position an all connected i then used some of the black split loom conduit over the hose where it was touching any other componits.

[Cubflyer]

Jim J,

I used a #10 union with a 1/8" NPT tap out the side for a pressure transmitter/gauge to connect the original flex hose that comes from the primary filter (removed the primary filter and installed my new pump and filter system at that location) to the rigid line that feeds the secondary filter.  Capped off the in and out fittings of the "lift pump", disconnected the lift pump electric connector and installed a 10 ohm resister across the wire harness connector.  No "engine" lights.... 

Ken

[cbr046]

On 3/26/2021 at 11:13 PM, Cubflyer said:

My first MH, My first Diesel Pusher...03 HR Endeavor  Found my lift pump leaking, research indicates a FASS pump is a great replacement for the original lift pump, bypassing the factory lift pump problems and providing airless fuel to the Injector pump.

Ken

 

Old topic, new customer.  Same problem:Leaky lift pump. 

From some reading a common culprit for leaky lift pumps is ULSD deteriorating the nitrile gasket in the pump.  Ok with LSD, but not ULSD.  So what I'd prefer is to find the right gasket and install it. 

While $700 for a FASS system might be good "insurance" vs replacing the CAPS pump it's money I'd rather keep.  I WOULD like to install a fuel pressure sensor so I can monitor input to the CAPS.  That makes perfect sense. 

What pressure sensors do y'all use and what sort of instrument gauge?  Kinda liking the VMSpc.

Thanks,

- bob

 

[JDCrow]

2 hours ago, cbr046 said:

Old topic, new customer.  Same problem:Leaky lift pump. 

From some reading a common culprit for leaky lift pumps is ULSD deteriorating the nitrile gasket in the pump.  Ok with LSD, but not ULSD.  So what I'd prefer is to find the right gasket and install it. 

While $700 for a FASS system might be good "insurance" vs replacing the CAPS pump it's money I'd rather keep.  I WOULD like to install a fuel pressure sensor so I can monitor input to the CAPS.  That makes perfect sense. 

What pressure sensors do y'all use and what sort of instrument gauge?  Kinda liking the VMSpc.

Thanks,

- bob

 

To my knowledge, Van has installed a pressure gauge and there is a great video on YouTube (Mike) of a FASS install with a gauge so you can see the gauge. 

 

[jacwjames]

I installed a Glow shift gauge, used a threaded adapter that I put into a port on top of the secondary filter that the sensor screws into, bought a 40' wire harness that I spliced into the one sent with the gauge.  I drilled a new hole in the dash to mount the gauge.   I see ~16 psi of pressure when I'm starting the rig, at full load it might drop to ~14psi.   This is what I ordered.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274410976490?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/291230422814?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294431230771?hash=item448d780b33:g:76kAAOSwDGxhVu1Y

Edited November 9, 2021 by jacwjames

[cbr046]

2 hours ago, jacwjames said:

This is what I ordered . . . .

So that's ~$120 for a manual gauge.  14 psi running . . . is that with FASS or stock lift pump?  Where did you mount the gauge?  Of course, photo would be great. 

Because there's no low pressure fuel sensor the VMSpc system can't display / track low side fuel pressure . . . right? 

SilverLeaf doesn't post a price for their VMSpc system.  Approx cost (without the tablet / monitor)?

- bob

Edited November 9, 2021 by cbr046
edited for more pesky questions

[jacwjames]

The FASS pump is shipped calibrated to ~16 psi, it can be adjusted but I left mine there.  No idea what the lift pump pressure is but it only runs for ~30 seconds, after that the injector pump is pulling so it may not show pressure at all.

Here's a source for the Silverleaf  https://www.rvupgradestore.com/VMS-to-6-Pin-Diagnoistic-Port-p/vmspc6.htm

You have to make sure you get the right pin and they do sell a bluetooth model, no idea how that works. 

Earlier this year I started having trouble with my Silerleaf connecting to my Sony Viao laptop, it would intermittently drop it signal and then all of a sudden it would not connect.  I tried another Sony Viao I had as spare and it wouldn't connect.  I then tried by Dell which worked but it's a large laptop and not much room up front to easy mount.  I ended up buying a Microsoft Go 2 tablet and it seems to be working pretty well although I is a touch screen which makes it hard to set up and change the display but once you get it set up I just turn it on, log in, start the engine and I'm ready to go. 

But there are other options out there, Bluefire is one that I've heard good things about, it can connect to your phone via bluetooth. 

I don't have any pictures right now of the fuel pressure gauge, I'll try and remember and post later. 

 

[Cubflyer]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:17 PM, cbr046 said:

Old topic, new customer.  Same problem: Leaky lift pump. 

Bob,

I thought at first I would replace the gasket, bought one, never installed it since I had more problems than just a leaky pump (old, black fuel).... so I went the FASS Filter/pump route.  Totally bypassing the original pump. 

I have a gasket if you want it, I'll never use it.... (maybe two) 

It sure is reassuring having constant inlet pressure of clean solid (airless) fuel on the inlet of that expensive (and hard to change) CAPS injector pump.   

Ken

[cbr046]

3 minutes ago, Cubflyer said:

I have a gasket if you want it, I'll never use it.... (maybe two) 

It sure is reassuring having constant inlet pressure of clean solid (airless) fuel on the inlet of that expensive (and hard to change) CAPS injector pump.  

Thanks, I'll take it! 

I was just looking for the fuel pressure gauge components jacwjames had posted and couldn't find the thread then *bingo* you led me right to it.

My strategy is to get the gauge and monitor pressure.  If it truly is starving the CAPS pump then I'll have to install a FASS system.  Their videos are really quite informative.

I'll PM my address and let me know what you want for shipping. 

Best,

- bob