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Monacoers Daily Digest


Scotty Hutto
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Welcome to Bill D's Monacoers' Daily digest for *|date|*

To view this on the web click here: https://www.monacoers.org/newsletters/issue/486-monacoers-daily-digest/.  To respond to a post, click on the post title to be taken to that topic on the website.

Hello *|member_name|*, 

Here's what the Monacoers were talking about yesterday:

 

Index

EGT Gauge Added
CRY1942
Unknown cable
6Wheels
IOTA ITS-50R
Steven P
WARNING LIGHT
vanwill52
IOTA ITS-50R
Tom Cherry
EGT Gauge Added
vanwill52
New exhaust
vanwill52
ISB 5.9 water pump
PeterSchweizer
ISB 5.9 water pump
Jim McGarvie
New exhaust
dl_racing427
Chasing Wires in the Dash
Chuck B
New exhaust
moxy1962
ISC fuel drip
JDCrow
Rear tank low air pressure warning
HR Ambassador
WARNING LIGHT
Robert U
Cruise control problem
ktloah
WARNING LIGHT
vanwill52
Cruise control problem
cbr046
New exhaust
dl_racing427
New exhaust
moxy1962
Cruise control problem
Timaz996
New exhaust
dl_racing427
Rear tank low air pressure warning
Gary Cole
New exhaust
moxy1962
IOTA ITS-50R
Scotty Hutto
Cruise control problem
ktloah
New exhaust
vanwill52

New Posts

EGT Gauge Added
CRY1942

The gauge, sender and special cable is from Banks Power (www.bankspower.com).

The sender is installed in the exhaust manifold PRE Turbo.

I debated a long time about Pre or Post Turbo, but my shop mechanic said they could drill the manifold with no problem and mount it Pre Turbo which would be more accurate. Post Turbo readings can be 300 or 400 degrees cooler, so I am told.

I have a great deal of trust with my shop; Carpenters Buss Sales, Elm Mott, TX and went with their advice.

Running the cable was the hardest part of the job, coming from the engine, along the frame rails forward, there was an entry point from my single roll out bay (38 foot coach) which comes out under the refrigerator, then forward behind the couch to the dash area.

There are other vendors of EGT Gauges that do not require the "special" cable but were out of stock for the longest time and the Banks Gauge was readily available.

Good luck and safe travels.


Unknown cable
6Wheels

It is a 15-pin D-connector, most often seen on an analog port of a video monitor.  If it is plugged into the TV or laying there from when it was upgraded, it is not being used.


IOTA ITS-50R
Steven P

One of my first changes was to get rid of the Iota in my 06.  I, too, read the different opinions regarding it but ultimately felt my and my family's safety and peace of mind were worth the change.  I went w the Esco.  I did the swap myself.  Took maybe 2 hours?  It wasn't bad, but wire length can make it a little tough as the Esco has the terminals differently than the Iota.  When I announce I made the swap, I had many "why?!"  "Keep the terminals tight and you're fine!"  But in the end, I wanted better peace of mind and have that now. I have had no issues w my Esco and follow the turn off genny before plugging in rule, etc..

Steven


Air bag diagram for 1998 Beaver Patriot Ticonderoga 37' ?
veraken

Here is a document for the Windsor & Dynasty that may help/

1996-1999 AIR SYSTEM Dynasty and Windsor.pdf


WARNING LIGHT
vanwill52

Do you have a generic "WARNING" light on your instrument panel?  If so, it may come on for a variety of reasons.  If you have that generic warning light, I have more info for you.


IOTA ITS-50R
Tom Cherry

Bill Groves and I had differing "Professional" opinions on WHICH ESCO to install. ESCO recommends that LPT50BRD when you call them.  Many of the older Monacoers liked the es50-65n. I have been on this forum since March, 2009 as a moderator-owner-administrator. Bill and I would "joust" over electrical issues....and like most engineers, we had different opinions on the "Correct" way to do things.

The LPT50BRD is the most commonly found ATS in RV Repair shops. We have never had a failure of that switch. It is based on a Lyght (sp?) design. It is a LOW Voltage switch in that it does NOT have a 120 VAC Control board. I installed mine right after the IOTA was recalled. It is an EASY swap. It has NEVER given me (or anybody for that matter) an issue.

The ES50-65N was a switch that was used long ago and many folks loved it....especially our late founder, the "Colonel". We spent a LOT of bandwidth on the "Which is better". I talked to an ESCO design/field tech engineer that knew the history of the ES and the LPT switches . The main issue, and there were failures with the ES, was the AC Hum. If you are deaf as I am, then it is not a problem. Many of our members decided on the ES when the IOTA failed. Some were NOT happy as they and their spouses found the hum irritating. The hum is there....but where you sleep and where the ATS is located and the surrounding enclosure are the variables.

More people, due to the age of the ES, have had failures and had to rebuild them. ESCO did (need to verify now) have parts available to repair them and many, including the Colonel had rebuilt them more than once. When the IOTA failure came about, it was a boon for ESCO as the LPT50BRD was the number one choice....for a "Simple" ATS. 

The field engineer and the tech support folks said that the long range plan was to discontinue the ES, but to keep a few parts in stock, and to migrate to the LPT. I do NOT know if they changed their marketing strategy.

Without speaking ill of one of our beloved members, a qualified EE could make a case for one being superior....it is a matter of the "theoretical" interpretation of the specs.

Our MH's are rated for 50 Amps and L1 and L2 have to be "Out of Phase". The constant swapping or the sinusoidal load on the neutral will always be a function of the L1 and L2 loads. For whatever reason, ESCO used 65 Amp for the neutral in that relay.  The Main circuit board and the pedestals and the line cord and the interconecting wiring are only rated or protected for 50 Amps.   YES... depending on the wiring chart and temperature, you will read a theoretical 55 and 65 Amp value. However, with an Out of Phase circuit (220 50 amp pedestal), the Neutral never exceeds the highest amp load of either L1 or L2.....

NOW, many folks have upgraded and gone to the TRC switches. There are several varieties of them. The disadvantage of the TRC is that it is NOT field serviceable. So, in a simple ATS - NON SURGE PROTECTED - the LPT (or if you prefer) the ES is the favorite. 

NOW....the "Board's" consensus is that a MH should be protected and the hands down favorite is a combination of a good switch (LPT, of course) and the Progressive Industries HW50C. 

The Dynasty and higher Monaco models had TWO versions of a surge protected ATS. They were not cheap and there have been an occasional failure. 

FWIW, Progressive was a company formed by Tommy Fannelli, who was the chief field engineer for TRC. He proposed making the switches more robust and also field serviceable. When Progressive pooh-poohed the ideas, he finally left and he and his brother designed the Progressive Surge Protectors and put in the improvements that many customers had begged for....and it was a hit. I knew him as he was local and we talked and he also helped folks with issues. He sold the company...and retired. 

Bottom LINE....GET RID OF THE IOTA. Unless you want to spend MORE $$, then put in a combination of the HW50C and the LPT50BRD. The HW50C goes UPSTREAM of the ATS....regardless of which ATS you have as that protects the ATS. It does NOT go downstream. Tommy and I helped an individual that did that and he burned up the FIRST relay, ever, in the HW50C. The lower end MH's like I have, are an IN PHASE 8KW Genny. Therefore, the load on the Neutral is the SUM of L1 and L2. When you overload, even with the 35 Amp circuit breaker on an 8KW Onan, you are putting up to 70 amps on the neutral. The ES series is only rated for 65 and the HW50C for 50. And the relay in the HW50C failed. Tommy's guys replaced the parts locally when the member came through the area.  We ALL keep learning.

Final item....and I have posted this many times.....PAY ATTENTION TO THE WIRING OF THE IOTA and LABEL L1, L2 and Neutral. The ESCO switches as well as others MAY not be in the same order on the terminal strips. We have had folks that put in an LPT50 and use the same order....L1, L2 and Neutral. OPPS....the ESCO switch has two of them reversed. It has been so long, I forget.  BUT, if you read the inside of the IOTA, you will see WHICH is the order. Typically L1 will be BLACK and L2 will be RED and White will be the Neutral. It does NOT matter if you swap L1 or L2.....but you can NOT hook up L1 to Neutral and have it work.

YES, folks have done that and then...."It don't WORK".  SO take photos....make sure you KNOW what the numbers are on the strip and WHERE they go....

Have at it.....GET RID OF THE ITOA before you have to grab a fire extinguisher or you are in the middle of the desert and no AC....


Cursed G2000 awning will not extend
Biljol

I have the same problem right now on mine I am able to Hotwire it a the control box and get it to extend so not the motor. Had to leave on a trip so not digging into it right now. 


EGT Gauge Added
vanwill52

You might skim through this  post on iRV2:

Boost increase on ISC-350 by adjusting wastegate - iRV2 Forums

It documents my long experiment with increasing boost to control EGT.  It's a very long thread but you can find a lot of info about your questions.  You will also see posts by folks (Wild Card, for instance) who know little or nothing, but have "digital diarrhea" and cannot stop themselves from posting about things they have only read about, but KNOW nothing about.

I installed an EGT gage at the turbo inlet, using an AutoMeter gage that used ordinary wire to go forward to the cockpit from an amplifier located near the thermocouple's wimpy output.

To summarize, I was surprised at some things.  1) the EGT of a bone-stock ISC-350 can easily hit 1400*F under WOT for 60 seconds, as when accelerating from a rest area to merge with traffic.  2) increasing boost will undoubtedly reduce EGT under all conditions.  I SUSPECT (do not know) that is the reason the Banks Engineering performance kits usually include a higher-capacity turbo.  3) even on the electronically controlled engines (ISC, at least) increasing the boost does NOT cause the ECM to call for any more maximum fuel than it was originally programmed for, so there is absolutely NO power increase from increasing boost.  4) as expected, adding fueling by any means raises EGT.  5) RPM has a huge effect on EGT.  You can easily reach 1400*F at low throttle settings if the RPM is low enough.

It's inconceivable to me that Cummins did not test their ISC setup extensively before releasing it to production, so I THINK (do not know) that the possible damage from excessive EGT is very time-dependent.  That is, some excessive EGT can be tolerated quite safely for limited periods...because valve head and piston temperatures are NOT the same as EGT.  I have questioned Cummins extensively and never got anything close to an answer to, "How HIGH can EGT be for how LONG before there is the possibility of damage?"  It surprised me the answer is not readily available.

My experience with an EGT gage on my 1993 Dynasty 8.3-250 was much like yours in regards to EGT.  It was also AutoMeter brand, but used the long Type-K wire from the thermocouple to the gage in the cockpit--quite a PITA to install.  Changing the fueling plate in the injector pump to increase fueling resulted in considerably higher EGT (easily 1400*F) and more power, but required that one be mindful of throttle position and RPM.  At the time, I had not tried increasing boost to lower the EGT.


New exhaust
vanwill52

I replaced my stock muffler with the Aero 4040XL, only because it appeared to be an inexpensive, stainless steel replacement for the original.  I expected NO change in boost and NO change in performance...and got neither.  I have yet to see a dyno before-and-after comparison, but I THINK some huge increases in HP are largely between the ears of the owner...just my personal experience.  Exhaust noise increase was minimal.


ISB 5.9 water pump
PeterSchweizer

I should take a mechanically minded person about 2 hrs to drain n remove the rear Radiator with 1 additional person to lift it out. The charge cooler 1/2  hr more if you also want it out to clean n change hoses n clean engine. After the Radiator is out you will have access to the waterpump.  Replace all hoses, even the numerous small ones around the engine, belts, belt tensioner, thermostat. Dont be in a rush n most of all try n have FUN, knowing you eliminated lots of possible issues down the road. Also consider having the Alternator rebuilt  n fan replaced with the one from Source Engineering while you have access.


Air bag diagram for 1998 Beaver Patriot Ticonderoga 37' ?
Dennis-C

Thanks Ken, I'll give that a look!

-Dennis

 


ISB 5.9 water pump
Jim McGarvie

Thanks to those that responded. I have to admit, though, that even as a fairly capable DIY mechanic the job sounds a bit more daunting than I expected. I.e., I did not anticipate the need to remove the radiator etc. I think this is beyond my desire, if not my skill set, and we don't have time before our next trip to have it accomplished.

I do agree, though, with the suggested work while the radiator is removed. But for this trip I will just carry a new pump, tensioner and belt, JIC. The leak is so small at this point there is no coolant on the floor.


New exhaust
dl_racing427

Unless your factory system is very restrictive, any change in HP will be minimal.

I straight piped mine to save money and eliminate the muffler, which is the first thing to rust out.
The sound increase was minimal from the drivers seat, where it counts. 😎


Chasing Wires in the Dash
Chuck B

I do not understand why one would want to just cut and remove wires unless they are causing a problem.  IMO, just leave them there because in the future you might need them to operate something.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor

Monaco built wiring looms to cover every option that was put in a given coach.   Then the wiring is there if a coach owner wanted to add that option.  IMO, it is like removing a 120 vac outlet from your home that you were not using.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor


New exhaust
moxy1962

A lot of coach owners report better performance with straight through exhaust or straight through mufflers, and comment the performance gains are worth the extra exhaust noise, I’ve read less turns, bigger diameter, Less restrictive mufflers or resonators allow exhaust gases to exit vehicle quicker using less energy to pump them increasing turbo efficiency. . My ISL has 6 bends in the exhaust 3 of them are 90 degree bends, 3 are 45’s, travelling about 10 or 12 feet, by all accounts fairly restrictive exhaust set up, yet as I have indicated when compared to the rusted out exhaust with substantial holes in turbo down pipe, there was 0 loss in boost with complete new factory style muffler and piping which by all accounts is the measuring stick for turbo diesel performance, and it’s quiet.

 


ISC fuel drip
JDCrow

Anyone had a small drip on the distribution manifold, on the back of the pump? 
 

All the lines are tight, cannot quite get my eyes on it. I’ve read about an O-Ring for a sensor on the top of the manifold going bad and a simple fix. I guess I need to get a set eyes on it because by the time I get under it when it’s running the manifold is wet. So it’s hard to determine exact location. Very small amount but any amount is too much 

Here is where I kinda think I’m at

https://www.justanswer.com/medium-and-heavy-truck/84k6y-isc-8-3-cummins-i-removed-fuel-line-connects-accumulator.html

 


Rear tank low air pressure warning
HR Ambassador

I have a 2009 HR Ambassador 41 SKQ. Last winter while traveling to AZ., I got a Rear Tank Low Air warning and buzzer. We stopped in Amarilo, TX. and the repairman replaced the sending unit, located on the rear tank, and equalizer valve. Did not help. Since both tanks were holding 123 psi, we guessed not an air problem. After arriving in Mesa, I had a mobile repairman come by, and of course, everything worked perfectly. We assumed it was moisture in line partially frozen. So, I drained both tanks and replaced the moisture filter. Heading home, after about 50 miles, message and buzzer return. When pressure was above 65 psi buzzer and message would stop, then I could see the digital readout on message center. The front tank held at proper level, but rear would jump and fall so fast you couldn't read the numbers. Most of the way home it stayed above 65 psi, so no buzzer. After getting home I took it to a shop and was told I needed to replace the pressure sensor located in the generator compartment, which I did. Did not fix problem. I switched the wiring from the front to the rear sensor, just to see if the new sensor was bad, but the guage stayed the same, front ok, rear tank warning and buzzer. So, the next thought was the guage is bad. Replaces guage, did not help. I also replaced the park break pressure switch. I'm at a loss of what to do next, and ideas?


WARNING LIGHT
Robert U

Van,

I have a generic warning lite. It can be set by coolant temp, oil pressure, intake manifold temp, engine overspeed, and fuel temp. I suspect coolant temp because it only happens when temp gauge on dash goes up a few degrees. I may have to have the codes pulled by the diesel mechanic that I use.He charges one hour at $140/hr. There has got to be a second sensor for coolant to set a warning lite. I would like to hear your take on the warning lite.

Thanks

Bob U  2000 Dip

 


Cruise control problem
ktloah

04 Dynasty,  400 ISL, Today while traveling in NC, the cruise control stopped working. Pushed SET again and it worked for less than a minute. Shutoff cruise and tried again to no avail. Now it won't engage at all but light on dash says it's on. Jake is off....anyone ever experience this before?


WARNING LIGHT
vanwill52

Bob, your warning light can be triggered by a multitude of errors.  You can only determine which one it is by having the codes read.  If ANY warning in the Cummins universe is triggered, the ubiquitous "Warning" light comes on.

A VMS-PC will interpret most codes, as will the ScanGage product, but they usually report a "Generic" code that is not the same as the Cummins code.  One would think that a Cummins tech could be the best bet for analyzing a code.  In my case, that was not true.  I had a code registering on my VMS-PC for literally three years that a Cummins tech could not interpret, even when he plugged directly into my ECM, using INSITE from under the coach.  I have forgotten the code number (although I think it was "Generic" 151) but the English language interpretation was "Power supply voltage invalid".  Since Cummins could not read the code from my ECM, I just ignored it.

Three years later, the code reared its ugly head in reality.  It turns out the code was for a power supply problem in the ECM.  The code was that the ECM was failing, but took three years to finally crap out completely.  When it finally failed completely, the ECM had to be replaced with a "remanufactured" (cleaned and painted used ECM) from Cummins.  Total cost was over $7K, using an unusually talented shop in the Atlanta area.  The shop was MTR Motor Fleet Services (mtrfleetservices.com) in Cumming, GA.  Jason Martin is the owner, and is a talented, Christian young man.

Had I been able to get an interpretation of the code, PERHAPS I might have scheduled the ECM replacement at a more convenient time.  As it turned out, Paul Whittle (Sh*tter Whittle, the OPUS toilet electronic guru) put me up for nearly three weeks while the diagnostic/replacement routine took place.  Kudos to Paul and Barb who are always ready and willing to help folks with MH problems.  Thanks also to Frank McElroy, who is a Cummins ECM expert, and also an expert on all things Monaco that are electric/electronic.

Moral of the story--find a way to get your codes read, so you have a clue what calamity may be awaiting you around the corner.


Rear tank low air pressure warning
cbr046

You switched sensor wires between front and rear and still indicated bad rear pressure?  Or did the problem stay with the rear sensor?

If it's jumping around multiple times / sec I'd say wiring somewhere . . . maybe a ground wire (if it's a ground reference). 

I can't offer specific help, just throwing up some basic questions.

Best,

- bob


Cruise control problem
cbr046

Any chance the ATC light is flashing? 

Just a hunch . . . . maybe barking up the wrong tree (turned out to be a clogging fuel filter / ISC engine).  My cruise was downshifting the transmission, but cruise stayed engaged.  Early symptom was a ATC light flashing. 

- bob

 


New exhaust
dl_racing427
4 hours ago, moxy1962 said:

A lot of coach owners report better performance with straight through exhaust or straight through mufflers, and comment the performance gains are worth the extra exhaust noise, I’ve read less turns, bigger diameter, Less restrictive mufflers or resonators allow exhaust gases to exit vehicle quicker using less energy to pump them increasing turbo efficiency. . My ISL has 6 bends in the exhaust 3 of them are 90 degree bends, 3 are 45’s, travelling about 10 or 12 feet, by all accounts fairly restrictive exhaust set up, yet as I have indicated when compared to the rusted out exhaust with substantial holes in turbo down pipe, there was 0 loss in boost with complete new factory style muffler and piping which by all accounts is the measuring stick for turbo diesel performance, and it’s quiet.

 

Boost level doesn't have much to do with power output.  Without additional fuel, you could have 100psi of boost and still make the same power, or even less due to the pumping losses associated with making more boost pressure.
Higher boost simply provides more oxygen, which ALLOWS the engine to burn more fuel, but doesn't increase power in and of itself.
It's certainly not a very good indicator of exhaust efficiency.
Like I said, any gains from exhaust are small and unlikely to be able to be felt from the driver's seat.


Rear tank low air pressure warning
Ivan K

I would also look at grounding of the tank itself, on it's mounts, if it is a one wire sensor and ground is supplied by the tank fitting.


New exhaust
moxy1962
50 minutes ago, dl_racing427 said:

Boost level doesn't have much to do with power output.  Without additional fuel, you could have 100psi of boost and still make the same power, or even less due to the pumping losses associated with making more boost pressure.
Higher boost simply provides more oxygen, which ALLOWS the engine to burn more fuel, but doesn't increase power in and of itself.
It's certainly not a very good indicator of exhaust efficiency.
Like I said, any gains from exhaust are small and unlikely to be able to be felt from the driver's seat.

Boost goes up so does fuel metering, fuel alone doesn't create power hense the need for the turbo,  fuel without air or in this case forced induction doesn’t do squat but you know that, so if my boost increases so does the fuel delivered to each cylinder, conversely when the boost drops the fueL decreases, more boost, more fuel, more power, can’t change the laws of physics my friend, 

You ever notice that performance set ups for Diesel engines include intake, exhaust and turbos? if you can’t get the exhaust out  you can’t get fresh air and  fuel in, exhaust is everything 


Cruise control problem
Timaz996

I would check and clean the contacts for your steering wheel system. If you have a slip ring in your steering wheel like I do that was my problem when the crews kept shutting off


New exhaust
dl_racing427
5 minutes ago, moxy1962 said:

Boost goes up so does fuel metering, fuel alone doesn't create power hense the need for the turbo,  fuel without air or in this case forced induction doesn’t do squat but you know that, so if my boost increases so does the fuel delivered to each cylinder, conversely when the boost drops the fueL decreases, more boost, more fuel, more power, can’t change the laws of physics my friend, 

 

Not necessarily.  A diesel doesn't operate with a relatively constant Air/Fuel ratio like a gasoline engine.
You can increase fuel and power without increasing boost, but that also results in high exhaust temps and excessive smoke.
Once you have enough boost to allow your injection pump to reach maximum fuel , further increases in boost pressure will actually reduce power slightly due to pumping losses.


Rear tank low air pressure warning
Gary Cole

If you suspect a grounding problem go to your chassis or house batteries, depending on the component, and first check for resistance between the negative post of the battery and a clean metal spot on the chassis. Use firm pressure on the test probes and a decent quality multimeter. Your reading should be zero which verifies that the chassis grounding path is good. If not you should remedy that problem before proceeding. Some components are more sensitive to grounding problems than others and important components usually have a ground wire going to a grounded stud or pad. Then check the grounded housing of your problem device to the chassis as before. Must read zero ohms again.


New exhaust
moxy1962
11 minutes ago, dl_racing427 said:

Not necessarily.  A diesel doesn't operate with a relatively constant Air/Fuel ratio like a gasoline engine.
You can increase fuel and power without increasing boost, but that also results in high exhaust temps and excessive smoke.
Once you have enough boost to allow your injection pump to reach maximum fuel , further increases in boost pressure will actually reduce power slightly due to pumping losses.

Diesels run lean by design, excessive lean condition will not make more power no, but that’s not what I said, my ISL will maintain the afr based on available boost, if my boost is lower due to a restrictive exhaust or intake the afr will stay at optimum and that would mean less fuel and air, which means less power, which some may feel or notice.

The point of my Comment is, the stock exhaust set up is sufficient to allow max boost on my engine, therefore allowing the most Efficient afr, no need to worry about restrictive factory exhaust, it is fine. Any seat of the pants feeling some may feel is likely about the sound not about the power. 


IOTA ITS-50R
Scotty Hutto

Thanks @Tom Cherry!  
 

There you have it, everyone! The wisdom of two of the boards long-time authorities on the subject. They differ in opinion regarding which switch, and I think both sides of this long-time discussion are well represented here, but the one thing they don’t differ on is their recommendation to replace the Iota and add surge protection.  


Cruise control problem
ktloah

Ok thanks, I'll check it out


New exhaust
vanwill52

With the Cummins ECM, increasing boost pressure DOES NOT cause additional fuel to be delivered...DOES NOT cause additional fuel to be delivered...DOES NOT cause additional fuel to be delivered.  Would be nice if that were the case, but NOT SO.  Additional boost will lower EGT under all conditions, but the max programmed fuel from the ECM is not changed.  To increase power, you must increase fuel delivery and you will have to do that with an add-on device like Agricultural Solutions or similar.

It might seem reasonable that if the ECM sees higher boost, it will supply additional fuel, but it simply DOES NOT do that.  All you get from additional boost is the ABILITY to burn more fuel efficiently, but the Cummins ECM will not supply additional fuel no matter what boost pressure you achieve.  I increased my boost pressure from 22-23 PSI to 30+ PSI.  It lowered EGT considerably, but did not increase performance.  Adding the Ag Solutions "chip" increased power by a modest amount while raising EGT.  The increased boost kept the EGT at about the pre-chip temperature.


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