Inverter Issue

[jacwjames]

Well, I've been troubleshooting my power problem, I originally thought it was an inverter problem causing the generator to kick out.

Yesterday I called a Xantrex repair shop near me in TN and explained my symptoms (the same as I explained to the Xantrex tech support) but he said the 259 ohms on the one leg is normal.  He suggested I completely bypass the inverter and see what the generator does, so I did and found that the rear bath/bedroom circuit is what is causing the problem.  I swapped GFCI and that didn't solve the problem. 

So I disconnected that circuit and hooked the inverter back up and all is good.  It charges, inverts etc.  Put everything back and now I'll turn my attention to the one circuit causing a problem. 

 

Now my question is does anyone know if the wire routing for a circuit based on the wiring diagram follows the numbering.  In my case the outlets are 

1. 6S1  right hand side of bed 
2. 6S2  left hand side of bed
3. 6S3 is the TV outlet
4. 6S4 is the commode room
5. 6S5 is the vanity near the bed
6. 6S6 is the outlet at the end of the base cabinet 

Doesn't seem they would daisy chain in that order but would like to confirm. 

Also, while I'm having to pull these outlets I'd like to replace with a better quality,  I took the vanity outlet out and see how flimsy they are.  Any suggestions on replacements. 

[vanwill52]

24 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

 

Also, while I'm having to pull these outlets I'd like to replace with a better quality,  I took the vanity outlet out and see how flimsy they are.  Any suggestions on replacements. 

Jim, I also have always thought that the "push-in" outlets (regular and GFI) had no place in a motor home that is constantly bumping down the road.  They seem to work OK in residential applications.  But every time I've had to pull an outlet, I replaced it with one that had screw terminals available.  Only had one problem ever, and that was the vanity outlet gave up the ghost when a hair dryer (high amperage) was plugged in and overloaded an already poor push-in connection.  Charred the outlet, but no fire.

[jacwjames]

So the bathroom/bedroom GFCI circuit is the one that is causing me a problem.  I checked the circuit and there is a short to ground.  So I pulled each of the individual outlets and can only guess as to the actual routing at this point.  The last outlet in the daisy chain is the one labeld 6S2 left hand side of the bed.  The two next to the bed are fed through a Jbox under the bed.  What's strange is that there are extra wires coming into the Jbox and all are attached to the single romex wire going to the right had side of the bed. 

Above the engine next to the surge tank there is another Jbox that feeds the Jbox under the bed.  Again there are extra wires coming in here, no idea where they originate as there are not any circuits behind the main service or inverter sub panel with the same color wires which are yellow and orange.  Anyone have any idea what these wires are for and where they originate.. 

So tomorrow I am going to break the daisy chain in half and test both sides to try and narrow the problem area. 

[vanwill52]

2 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

So the bathroom/bedroom GFCI circuit is the one that is causing me a problem.  I checked the circuit and there is a short to ground.  So I pulled each of the individual outlets and can only guess as to the actual routing at this point.  The last outlet in the daisy chain is the one labeld 6S2 left hand side of the bed.  The two next to the bed are fed through a Jbox under the bed.  What's strange is that there are extra wires coming into the Jbox and all are attached to the single romex wire going to the right had side of the bed. 

Above the engine next to the surge tank there is another Jbox that feeds the Jbox under the bed.  Again there are extra wires coming in here, no idea where they originate as there are not any circuits behind the main service or inverter sub panel with the same color wires which are yellow and orange.  Anyone have any idea what these wires are for and where they originate.. 

So tomorrow I am going to break the daisy chain in half and test both sides to try and narrow the problem area. 

Yeah, the "daisy-chaining" can definitely be confusing.  My problem with my vanity outlet has nothing to do with your problem.  I just think it was a poor choice to use push-in connections in an application where there is constant vibration and movement.  It's not a big deal to change them ALL out, and that's probably what I should have already done, instead of only replacing them one by one.

Glad your trip went "relatively" OK.  There is almost no such thing as a trip with "no issues", although I busted my arse to be sure I would not have issues on the Alaska trip...and it paid off.  The oldest coach in that caravan in 2016 was the ONLY one that had NO issues.  We do what we can...

Bless you, my Brother.

[jacwjames]

I spent a lot of time going over the coach prior to the trip.  Can't really complain overall.  Luckily the problem with the electrical happen toward the end and I was able to get home. 

I'll get it fixed, just another bump in the road.

 

FWIW- we bought our coach in Dec 08, the day I put the down payment down I got notice that the mines I was working at were shutting down.  I worked until March 09.  In May I told my wife we were going to AK and left Jun 1 and was on the road 3 1/2 month.   Although I had a decent background in diesel heavy equipment I was somewhat clueless as to the working of a DP.  Luckily no real problems, put on almost 15K miles. 

[vanwill52]

7 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

I spent a lot of time going over the coach prior to the trip.  Can't really complain overall.  Luckily the problem with the electrical happen toward the end and I was able to get home. 

I'll get it fixed, just another bump in the road.

 

FWIW- we bought our coach in Dec 08, the day I put the down payment down I got notice that the mines I was working at were shutting down.  I worked until March 09.  In May I told my wife we were going to AK and left Jun 1 and was on the road 3 1/2 month.   Although I had a decent background in diesel heavy equipment I was somewhat clueless as to the working of a DP.  Luckily no real problems, put on almost 15K miles. 

Bought mine in April 2013, from two SAINTS...Bob and Sue Hought.  Spent a lot of time on pre-emptive maintenance, then doubled down in 2016 just before five of us coaches left for AK.  It was the trip of a lifetime.  I came to faith on that trip, largely thanks to Tom and Paula Moore, Bob and Pam Nodine, and Craig and Angie French.  And made friends to last a lifetime.

I've been aggravated many times with what I see as poor engineering and quality control in my coach, but it has repaid me 100X over in life experiences that I treasure.  I'm soon to be 72, and don't see the day I "hang up the keys" just yet, but I know it's coming.  Thanks to Dave Pratt and Sandy, Scottie and Deb, Paul Whittle and Barb, and so many others who have made my "motor home journey" the high point of my life.  I'm not the greatest tech that ever graced this forum, but I've always felt a desire to help others solve problems and hope that they get from their experiences what I got from mine.  God bless you all!

[Cubflyer]

Jim,

Good to hear you are getting to the root of your problem.... and if I understand correctly, your Generator was shutting down due to the overload (short) in the coach...

Good knowledge to have.... could have spent a lot of time and effort fixing a generator that had no (direct) problem.

Hope you get your villain's worked out.... I'm confident you will..!

Take care,

Ken

 

[jacwjames]

I was convinced it was my inverter, especially after talking with the Xantrex Tech support.

But calling the actual repair facility was worth the effort (and a shot in the dark).  Got the inverter hooked back up and all seems to be functioning correctly except for the one circuit that I have a problem with.

Not sure why the GFCI did not trip the circuit, that's another story.

I will will get it fixed one way or another.  Now that I have it narrowed down to one circuit it is just a  matter of time & effort. 

One of the reasons I post in detail is to try and help others.  A lot of times we'll hear of problems but never hear on the final resolution.  I always try and close out my posts. 

[jacwjames]

I'm stuck & confused

I am trying to determine the 120 volt wiring for the rear bath/bedroom area.  I' have determined that the 5 outlets along the passenger side are all daisy chained starting from the TV box area.   This includes the outlet in the basement compartment, which is the end of this circuit. 

The wire that feeds this comes down from the ceiling.  From there I don't know how the wire is routed and where it is spliced into the circuit that feeds the bed headboard outlets. 

There is a JBox in the engine compartment this has 2 sets of wires that go to come from under the bed were there is another Jbox.  2 sets of wire come down from the rear cap, both 12-2 Romex, one has orange top on it the other has yellow.  There is one 12-2 romex wire feeding the Jbox under the bed and a pair of orange & yellow wires spliced onto the second romex wire feeding under the bed.  I suspect that for some reason they are back feeding from the Jbox under the bed back up into the area behind the rear cap.  Not sure where the wires may go as I've accounted for all the outlets (that I know of). 

Does anyone know how the wires are routed in the ceiling.  I took one speaker out but that didn't help.  I have a tone generator and I can trace the wires but that doesn't tell me how they are spliced together.  I've looked at the wiring diagrams in the download section and none that I've seen show the J Box and wire routing in the engine compartment. 

My only choice, if I can't figure out how the wiring is run, is to run new wire from the inverter sub panel, to the TV box and then through the back of the closet and then down on the drivers side and try and it into the existing wire for he bedroom slide. 

 

[cbr046]

Don't forget to check it both ways, maybe even interrupt the wiring half way through the chain, then ohm it to the source then to the end.  Obviously (because you already have), make sure the breaker is off . . . maybe even check for voltage on source wiring to ground, both hot and neutral, before ohming.

- bob

[Cubflyer]

If the "rules" on Motorhome construction follows home building and other industries, there should be no "slices" outside of "j" boxes and no "j" boxes should be buried, they should all be accessible (but may be well hidden).  That said, I just noticed an outlet behind the radiator in the back of the coach (and a plug hanging there unplugged,... engine block heater??) 

Ken

[jacwjames]

That is what I did, the 5 circuits that I've Isolated are good and isolated from the rest of the circuits.  Now trying to fix the other circuits.  I don't believe it is a problem in the outlets or Jboxes.  So it must be a problem in the wiring in the ceiling. 

In the past I've had problems with mice, I now they were in the ceiling also, so it may be a wire that was partially nawed threw and then finally shorted.  Just odd the way it happened. 

[cbr046]

5 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

 . . . may be a wire that was partially nawed threw and then finally shorted. 

That's the stuff fires are made of! 

- b

[Cubflyer]

But you are not tripping any circuit breakers... a shorted wire 'should'..... 

if you can, (and have not already) disconnect every wire (in the circuit that is bad) and meter each one individually..... you should be able to meter each one from point "A" to "B" (one end to the other)... which will help to find out where each one starts and ends and may surprise you with a component you did not know was there....

Wish I could be there to help as this is best done with two people....

Ken

[jacwjames]

I've been trying to think how the wiring is run during construction.  My guess is the circuits in the ceiling are run prior to it being installed and they left long pig tails to pull as it was put on the coach (just a guess).  So the Jbox in the engine compartment may be where they tie the chassis and cap together.  So one wire going down feeds the bedroom slide circuit and the other goes back up to feed the TV circuit and the rest of the outlets.  That's the only thing that makes sense as to the wire count.  in the Jbox and the yellow/orange tap to identify which is which. 

I don't understand why the breaker would not trip, it was on a GFCI which is usually pretty sensitive.  I even swapped breakers. 

I believe I've got it narrowed down and will run a new wire and check that side of the circuit first.  I'll then attach the other outlets. 

[Cubflyer]

Sounds like you have it under control.  I have noticed the orange romex and the yellow romex..... not sure why the different colors... or if there is any reason or difference or significance..... if there is and you figure it out please let me (us) know....

Ken 

[jacwjames]

When my coach was built they only had white romex for the 14 & 12 awg wires (maybe more). 

Romex today comes in different sheathing colors to make it easier to identify as the gauge. 

 14 awg is white 15 amp circuits

 12 awg is yellow  20 amp circuits

  10 awg is orange 30 amp circuits

When I was wire my new house I had used 2 or 3 rolls of older awg wire, the sheathing was white.  When the inspector came to do the rough-in inspection he said I had used the wrong wire, I told him it was older 12 awg wire which he was fine with.   But I had to remember this while I was doing the final connections.  The only 15 amp circuit I used was for the fire/smoke alarm circuit. 

In my case the romex was all white but the installers used orange and yellow tape to mark the two romex wires. 

 

[Cubflyer]

I'm embarrassed ! ... Showing my age..... I have not wired a house or even shopped/purchased any romex since 1998.... and that was is Mississippi... they are probably still usin' and sellin' white sheathing wire in all sizes....🤪

[jacwjames]

OK, my suspicion on how the wire was routed was correct.  Subpanel>Engine Jbox>bedroom slide Jbox under bed>Bedroom TV outlet>base cabinet outlet>vanity outlet> 1/2bath outlet>basement Outlet. 

I was able to identify which of the wires coming into the Jbox in the engine compartment fed the rest of the daisy chained circuits.  I tied a the neutral and ground wire together behind the TV and then cut all the neutral wires loose in the Jbox and tested each neutral wire.  This gave me the route to tie all of the outlets together.  From there I just disconnected and cut back the original power feed wire from the Inverter Subpanel and removed the wire that originally feed the Jbox under the bed. 

I then had to pull a new wire from the from the inverter subpanel into the TV area and install an outlet connecting the wires together.  The end result is I have two branch circuits coming from the TV outlet but either way I got it working.   Still do not know why the GFCI breaker did not trip. 

One consequence of this adventure is that it highlights how all these systems interact and how dependent we are on these.  With the original problem of the generator kicking out and not being able to charge the house batteries except the engine running I decided to add another smaller inverter that will power the Refrigerator and provide another charging source.  Bill G had recommended doing this in a couple posts and we actually exchanged emails discussion.  He had used the engine block heat circuit but I'm just going to use the refrigerator circuit from the main service panel, install the inverter in the TV cabinet with a remote on/off switch.  The large 2awg wire behind the inverter subpanel will provide the connection to the batteries for the inverter and to charge. 

Here is a picture of the outlet (for some reason turned sideways.  The yellow wire is the new 12awg wire from the inverter subpanel.  The wire going into the ceiling goes to the engine Jbox and the other white wire feeds the circuits along the passenger side bath area.