Electrical Issue

[LJPierce_ELY]

Tom, that was one heck of a detailed write up. Many thanks. Lots to look at tonight.

It's so dang hot here in NV right now that I'm thinking of looking at the inverter and opening it up (after removing it of course).

There are a couple of GFC breakers in the bedroom breaker panels so not having a GFCI receptacle makes sense.

It really wouldn't surprise me to find an internal fuse was blown inside the inverter. When the system went out, I know I was using the convection function AND the rear Air Cond. was also running. Probably overloaded the L2 on the inverter. I say L2 because when I trip that breaker, nothing dies (probably because that circuit is already dead).

I've used the convection oven before but have to admit, this time the display on the oven really went dim, then off. Like I said, just like a breaker tripping. I don't recall using it when the rear Air Cond. has been running before this.

Anyway, thanks again for the detailed assist. I'll endeavor it this evening.

Edited August 4, 2021 by LJPierce_ELY
verbage

[ncjimgr]

The Intellitec board is located in the box where your main 120v breaker panel is. On my Camelot, the board is just below the breaker panel. Take the brown panel off and you will see it below the breaker set up.

JimG
2006 Camelot

[LJPierce_ELY]

The breaker panels are in the bedroom with another board that has spots for 25 dc fuses, of which 21 are used. I see nothing else there.

All the digital panels are forward, above the passenger seat, behind their own cabinet door.

I must be overlooking something.

[jacwjames]

11 minutes ago, LJPierce_ELY said:

The breaker panels are in the bedroom with another board that has spots for 25 dc fuses, of which 21 are used. I see nothing else there.

All the digital panels are forward, above the passenger seat, behind their own cabinet door.

I must be overlooking something.

The main service panel has a brown cover on it, you have to remove the cover and there should be a circuit board that slides into the box.  There are wires going from the main breakers to the circuit board, these are the circuits that are shed when hooked to a 30 amp circuit. 

If you are good with a multimeter I would check the two lines going to the 50 amp breaker, these are the wires that come from the transfer switch, both should have 120 volts on them.  If there is power on both of them then the transfer switch is good, if not the problem points to the circuit board.

It there is power on both of the above then check the power going the inverter, should be labeled as L1 & L2 Inverter.  If there is power there then I would take the cover off the inverter subpanel and check the power coming from the inverter.  The inverter, if it is an RV2012 Xantrex, it has internal transfer switches that will pass power through it.  If there is no power going to the inverter it will make power (invert from the batteries to 120 volt).  If the internal transfer switches are bad it will not make power. 

[LJPierce_ELY]

Thank you. I will take a look see this evening.

[ncjimgr]

The board is just below the breaker panel. It has a green pilot light on it. The wires from the breakers go into this board then out into the coach to the various items the EMS controls. You have to remove the brown face plate to see the board and connections.

JimG
2006 Camelot

[coastal_front]

My '03 Camelot has a GFCI in the second cargo bay, passenger side mounted almost on the bay "ceiling". I doubt this is your problem but worth checking. It might also be your power cord or plug. The display picture shows 21 AMPS, the microwave may have caused it exceed 30 and trip something. I AM NOT an electrician or mechanic, just an old pilot who has seen too many strange malfunctions.

Edited August 4, 2021 by coastal_front

[Larry H]

I am sorry I did not see this earlier. It seems like the exact same problem I had several years ago. I thought it was likely a bad inverter but it was a bad 50 amp cord running to the coach. One of the hot wires was broken so I only had one of the 2 50 amp circuits working. With a multimeter, check the pedestal to see if you have 110 volts on each of the two circuits. Then check to see if you have 110 on each of the two circuits where it plugs into the RV (assuming I’d does plug in). If it does not unplug and see if you have continuity on each of your positive wires and where that circuit connects to your 2 50 amp breakers. In any case you only have half of your 110 plugs working, 1/2 of your ACs, and half of your other appliances. Trace and see where the power ends. Hope this is helpful.

[Martinvz]

We just joined the forum although we have had the coach for 6 years and we are loving it. Thanks for allowing us to join.

Thanks for the detailed explanation earlier in the thread.

We recently determined that we had no power to the rear A/C and traced it to the Intellitec 760 controller. There is no visible damage to the board. Right now the rear A/C circuit is not connected to the board. This should not be a problem as we will have a 50A power connection for our next camping trip. I had help from Jeff Malatesta (rvdiagnostics.com). Jeff did some research and advised to buy the 760 with the upgrade kit. I just purchased one from rvpartsexpress.com (thanks for the recommendation). Jeff's advice is to use the upgrade kit as they are making use of better components (beefier). In addition, the included current sensor ring should be used to replace the existing sensor ring as the new components are matched.

The price for the Upgrade kit is about $372 while the best we could find for the original board is $338. For the small price increase I will definitely settle for the upgrade kit.

Jeff mentioned that the relays are normally open for the circuits but for the 2 A/Cs the relay is normally closed. I am not able to verify this and accept it based on his knowledge.

Happy glamping.

[Dr4Film]

11 hours ago, Martinvz said:

The price for the Upgrade kit is about $372 while the best we could find for the original board is $338. For the small price increase I will definitely settle for the upgrade kit.

Jeff mentioned that the relays are normally open for the circuits but for the 2 A/Cs the relay is normally closed. I am not able to verify this and accept it based on his knowledge.

Happy glamping.

Martin,

Welcome to the very best forum where all of your questions and concerns will be answered.

That's a great price for an EMS upgrade kit if it included everything, board, current sensor, display and two sets of wire pigtails to splice to the existing display wire harness.

Also, I always thought that the relays had to be NC and then opened when the board determines them to be shed. I guess they could be NO until power has been sensed by the current sensor then they close to allow power to each device until the board decides to shed the device then the relay opens. Whereas, the two relays for the AC's could be NC without any power to the relay and board not requiring any power on the relay solenoid to keep it closed. Then when needed the relay will open shutting down the AC when the board calls for it.

I don't really know either but I would bet that the guys from M&M Electronics would know as they have the best working knowledge of these Intellitec EMS boards.

[LJPierce_ELY]

When I got home last night I tried to get the inverter out so I could open it up. However, it has too many wires other than just the cables so I resorted to just removing the top cover.

That didn't get me any closer. Large circuit board on to with heat sinks on either side prevented me from getting anywhere near where I need to be.

Being that working on it when the outside temperature was above 100, was quite miserable, I just let it sit and will have to work on it Friday.

I did look at my main shore power cord and it needs to be looked at further. Possible issue there.

And that intellitec panel was noticed in the bedroom. I never paid attention to the labeling.

That's it for the moment.

 

[jacwjames]

The inverter is not really serviceable.  I had mine out recently and without taking the large circuit board off the top there is not much you can do with it.  When I was having problems I called a service shop near me and he suggested I bypass the inverter by connecting the load wires and line wires together and grouping all the neutral wires.  Not an easy task the way they have all the wires crammed in there.  But I did this and then confirmed that it was a problem with one of my inverted circuits causing the generator to kick out.  Finally I was able to rewire that circuit to get electric to the entire coach. 

If you think it is your power cord you might be able to borrow one to see it fixes your problem, unless you have a cord reel. 

If that doesn't solve your problem it would narrow the issue to the transfer switch.  I have not read where you have inspected this yet.  I would suggest you do this ASAP as the IOTA transfer switch is a know fire hazard and originally under recall.

 

[Larry H]

If your power cord unplugs from your RV,  the source where you are plugged in and the power cord are easy to check with a volt meter. A cord with one bad hot wire will have the effect you described. Do the simple checks first.

[Tom Cherry]

3 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

The inverter is not really serviceable.  I had mine out recently and without taking the large circuit board off the top there is not much you can do with it.  When I was having problems I called a service shop near me and he suggested I bypass the inverter by connecting the load wires and line wires together and grouping all the neutral wires.  Not an easy task the way they have all the wires crammed in there.  But I did this and then confirmed that it was a problem with one of my inverted circuits causing the generator to kick out.  Finally I was able to rewire that circuit to get electric to the entire coach. 

If you think it is your power cord you might be able to borrow one to see it fixes your problem, unless you have a cord reel. 

If that doesn't solve your problem it would narrow the issue to the transfer switch.  I have not read where you have inspected this yet.  I would suggest you do this ASAP as the IOTA transfer switch is a know fire hazard and originally under recall.

 

OK....now this is getting a bit MORE complicated. You can NOT JUST INSPECT the line cord.  You have to do a circuit test with a VOM on it. A qualified electrician or an owner with basic skill sets can do this.  Make sure that if you do this, you TOTALLY understand....  

The problem is that some of the Monaco supplied line cords have been know to have issues....USUALLY and HOPEFULLY...>TYPICALLY > on the PLUG END.

I have NO IDEA and the Windsor owners will have to chime in HOW the cord is connected to the MH or service. Mine has a reel with power strips. The output or the Pigtail from the reel assembly goes to a Junction Box. Then the main FEED or the power line to the ATS will be coming out.  SO....here is what I would do....

Disconnect power and pull the cover off the ATS. You will see the terminals marked LINE or CORD or POWER....This is where you will take your measurements.

Plug in the shore line.....measure as follows....on the FOUR terminals marked as Line or Cord or Shore or Power IN...

Line 1 (Black) to Line 2 (Red) SHOULD be around 230 Volts....

Line 1 to Neutral (White) should be around 115 Volts.  Line 2 (Red) to Neutral will be close to the same or around 115 Volts....it could be as high as 125, so that is OK...

Line 1 (Black) to GROUND (Bare or GREEN) should be around 115 Volts...  Line 2 (Red) to Neutral should be the same....see above.

Neutral (White) to GROUND (Bare or GREEN) should be ZERO....or very if any voltage. IF THIS IS HIGHER.....then there is a problem....

If you are OK here, then your incoming power is OK....if NOT....then you need to locate the Junction Box where the Reel (if you have one) or the POWER Cord is connected to the MH. TURN OFF THE POWER, OPEN IT and check there.....

OK....COMMENT ON THE TRACE...  All I posted is what is PUBLISHED. TRACE says there is a Replaceable 30 Amp SLO-BLO fuse inside. There is, per their schematic, ANOTHER FUSE...which they say if it has BLOWN....you got ISSUES.  

I have NO IDEA how Monaco installed or how accessible or "NOT" the Trace is. 

THIS IS IMPORTANT SO YOU NEED TO KNOW.  The SHORE and the GENNY are INPUTS to the ATS. The ATS sends power to the MAIN PANEL. The Main Panel has a 30 Amp breaker (assuming Monaco wired it that way). This provides power to to the TRACE. The TRACE has a Printed Circuit Board and maybe a contactor or relay. That works the SAME as the ATS. If there is INCOMING POWER, then the contacts are CLOSED and the 115 VAC from the 30 Amp breaker is SPLIT into two circuits. Microwave and House.  If there is NO SHORE or NO GENNY, then the Trace switches to INVERTER and then supplies inverted power to the TRACE ATS and you have power.

IF the Board or the Contactor are the problem or the contacts are pitted or whatever, then THERE IS THE ISSUE. 

BUT, if the SLO BLO Fuse has been BLOWN.....then replacing the FUSE should fix it. If it BLOWS again, then there are or could be issues.

Hope this helps....

3 minutes ago, Larry H said:

If your power cord unplugs from your RV,  the source where you are plugged in and the power cord are easy to check with a volt meter. A cord with one bad hot wire will have the effect you described. Do the simple checks first.

Larry,

You are correct.  See the POST BELOW....

IF it is a bad "SHORE", then 90% or MORE of the reported failures are the PLUG.  That is easily replaced. I can give the PN and how....IF THAT IS THE ISSUE....

[jacwjames]

On my Windsor it uses a marine type connector on the drivers side rear to connect to the shore power.  I have to remove when traveling. 

I know other Windsors are wired different, until he describes his cord it's hard to help.

[LJPierce_ELY]

My power cord is on an electric retract reel. Not easily replaced. How it's wired in I have to research. Right now, the only thing I might suspect on this is the plug end. It's been messed with prior to my ownership and I haven't been happy with the plug due to electrical tape and generally poor condition of the cabling at that plug. It's been on my to do list and will be addressed ASAP.

The inverter I'm going to leave it as is until I get some other things looked at. I may have a mechanic here at work that knows this stuff. If so, and he's a lover of whiskey, I'll get some bribe booze purchased to see if he can nail this down.

[jacwjames]

The male ends of the cord can be replaced although they won't be as weather tight as a one from factory.  Can be purchased at any large RV store and/or on line. 

 

[Dr4Film]

My Windsor uses a Glendinning CableMaster Accumulator to wind in the power cord and coil it up into a small rear compartment on the driver's side rear corner. The cord is wired directly to a large junction box located in the engine compartment.

https://www.glendinningprods.com/products/cablemaster/cablemaster-rv/

Edited August 5, 2021 by Dr4Film

[LJPierce_ELY]

Mine winds up more forward. I'm borrowing a multimeter from the electric guru here. I'll test the junction box where the cord hooks into. If it looks good to that, then I have eliminated a couple problem areas.

Of course, I will advise.

[Tom Cherry]

6 hours ago, LJPierce_ELY said:

My power cord is on an electric retract reel. Not easily replaced. How it's wired in I have to research. Right now, the only thing I might suspect on this is the plug end. It's been messed with prior to my ownership and I haven't been happy with the plug due to electrical tape and generally poor condition of the cabling at that plug. It's been on my to do list and will be addressed ASAP.

The inverter I'm going to leave it as is until I get some other things looked at. I may have a mechanic here at work that knows this stuff. If so, and he's a lover of whiskey, I'll get some bribe booze purchased to see if he can nail this down.

OK....since you asked.....Amazon is your friend....  I have done this and several members have followed suit. You will end up with an "end" that is as good or better than the molded one.

https://www.amazon.com/Camco-PowerGrip-Replacement-Transform-55255/dp/B000PGVZ30/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=camco+50+amp+plug&qid=1628195672&s=automotive&sr=1-3

Use Camco 55255 in the Amazon search if the link does not work.  $18.66

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0195UWAHG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Use Dow Corning 4 Electrical Insulating Compound. $22,91.

THERE you have it. Cut off the old end. strip the wires to mate up. The Black and Red are not that critical, but to follow NEC, the BLACK (Line 1) is on the LEFT....if you are looking from the back of the plug. In other words, when you insert the plug, the blade on the LEFT SIDE will be BLACK (Line 1) and the blade on the RIGHT will be RED (Line 2). Ground will be at the TOP and the Neutral (White) will be the bottom blade.

See Figure 7 in the following PDF

http://www.billgehr.com/images/MH_2015-09_Power_Trip_101.pdf

After you cut and strip and get the wires CLEAN and in the terminals, it is important to tighten properly. Use a good "hand filling" screwdriver handle. Wrap a mechanics shop towel of a dry wash cloth around the handle....say TWO thicknesses. THEN, tighten with all your MIGHT. An adult male with average grip strength will get the 35 - 40 inch pounds of torque. 

NOW....with that done.....wiggle the outer jacket of the cord and sort of flex it or move it around. That will take the strain off the fittings. REPEAT the TORQUING.....same deal with the wrapped screwdriver handle. Criss Cross the pattern and do it ONE MORE TIME...

NOW, you fill the cavity with the Dow so that you totally encapsulate the wiring and terminals. DO NOT USE CHEAP SILICONE....use the DOW...  Once it cures, you are GOOD TO GO....  I had an OPEN Neutral once.....a small bump, like a cellphone falling on the plug from a foot or so was enough to dislodge the crimped Neutral.

THAT IS IS.....If your shore line is damaged.....DO THIS FIRST.....then follow the rest....a CHEAP investment....

Good Luck...

[LJPierce_ELY]

Got into it this evening, at least as far as the power cord goes, from the pedestal to, and into, the coach.

The power cord, despite all my hopes, is not the culprit. I have power moving through the necessary two wires and into the junction box next to the reel. No change when I rotated the reel either.

I used a FLUKE multimeter I borrowed from the electrical guru at work.

So, It isn't the power cord. One thing I did find was a CAMCO plug on the portion that plugs into the pedestal. So someone has already played with it and I am going to redo it. It doesn't meet my high repair standards. (Basically avoid the use of Electrical Tape where it's going to come apart!)

I'm going to try and spend the morning reading up on some of the replies contained herein in regards to the Intellitec board, as well as using the multimeter to see if I can figure this out.

AND I found the power outlet in the storage compartment that has access to the back of the water heater and what I call "The Water Bay". It is NOT a GFCI outlet.

I will update if, strike that, when. Yes, WHEN I manage to eradicate this little gremlin.

And thank you to everyone who has posted something. It is all appreciated. And a big thank you to Mr. Cherry. I will be attempting to proceed as you so described in much detail.

Edited August 6, 2021 by LJPierce_ELY

[jacwjames]

Have you checked your transfer switch yet???  Do you know you have power coming in on both L1 & L2 and then transfering to the coach. 

Also, my outlet in the basement is part of my bathroom/bedroom circuit and is controlled by a GFCI breaker (not and outlet type).  When I was having trouble the circuit would work off the inverter but it would kill my generator.  I had to run a new wire from the inverter subpanel to the outlet behind the TV and rewire the rest of the circuit essentially abandoning the original wire feeding the circuit.  Took me a while to figure this out and then come up with a way to rewire the outlets.   I suspect that it may have been caused by mice and while driving the wires finally shorted out.  Since that portion of the wiring is in the ceiling I'll never know the actual cause.

 

 

[LJPierce_ELY]

I've been mucking around for the past hour and a half, of course with the occasional break for morning coffee.

And I think I've managed to possibly get myself even more confused as I go along to the point that I'm thinking RV electrician.

I am attaching 2 pictures. Both of which should look familiar to the knowledgeable peeps on here.

The gray one is, of course, the left side breaker box in the bedroom. The second, brown one, is where the intellitec board was indeed found. (I looked carefully at that board, it's a Model 760) and it looks fine. No burned smells coming from the box and no scorched earth policy undertaken by the imaginary gremlin sharing my living space.

Several things I've found.

First off. The gray panel.

Breaker 2, shuts off circuits as advertised, Test trip button also tripped the breaker, as advertised.

Breaker 3, 3rd from the bottom, Inverter L1, when tripped, does nothing. No change to power status and no circuits noticed as turning off. (Don't jump to a conclusion yet, please read on.)

Breaker 5, no change. (If you will recall, using the microwave/convection was the original cause of this whole mess)

Breaker 6, 6th from the bottom, Inverter L2, when tripped, appears to shut off the remaining AC outlets but does NOT turn off the front roof mounted A/C (air conditioner)

Breaker 7, does nothing when tripped (Kitchen AC plugs which aren't working right now because of the main problem) That being said, I attempted to trip it via the GFC test button and it did NOT trip.

Now, onto the Brown Panel.

Inverter L1 breaker when tripped shuts down the currently working A/C plugs. (On the gray panel, shutting off L1 did NOTHING)

Inverter L2 breaker when tripped has no apparent effect anywhere. (On the gray panel it shut off some A/C plugs)

So, what I have found here is that between the 2 panels, on the Gray panel L1 does nothing but on the brown panel L1 shuts things off. As for L2, on the Gray panel shuts things off, but on the brown one, it does nothing.

Also, Breaker 7 might have a problem unless it's normal that at GFC breaker won't trip when pressing the test button, if there is no power to that circuit.

So, in final, what does the above stuff tell us?

 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by LJPierce_ELY

[Dr4Film]

Power from the transfer switch goes directly to the Brown Panel FIRST which are all NON-INVERTER Loads. Then onto the Grey Panel which are all Inverter Powered loads.

See attached diagram.

Trace RV-2012 Schematic.pdf

[waterskier_1]

6 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

Power from the transfer switch goes directly to the Brown Panel FIRST which are all NON-INVERTER Loads. Then onto the Grey Panel which are all Inverter Powered loads.

See attached diagram.

Trace RV-2012 Schematic.pdf 305.61 kB · 3 downloads

To add clarity, after leaving the Brown panel (called the Main Breaker Panel) the inverter power goes to the inverter, and then to the Gray Panel (called the Inverter Sub-Panel).  All the circuits in the Main Power Panel should work even if you don't have the inverter.  All the circuits in the Inverter Sub-Panel will only work if the inverter in in place.  When on Shore Power, this circuit pass-through the inverter to the inverter Sub-Panel.  When there is no shore (or generator) power,  ONLY the circuits in the Inverter Sub-Panel will function.   NONE of the circuits in the Main Power Panel will work.   I'm hoping this will help sort out what is happening and lead to a solution.