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Preventing DUVAC alternator problems


vanwill52

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@vanwill52, @pwhittle, @Bob Nodine

I have my ML-ACR in hand.  My coach (2006 Dip) has a LN 160A alternator, an Isolation Relay Delay (IRD), and a Trombetta. I don’t have the BIRD, Big Boy, or (to my knowledge) an SSI.  I added a Amp-L-Start a few years back.

There are 4 wires into the Trombetta…. Coach+, Chassis+, purple (goes to IRD), and white (battery combiner switch). 

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Looking at the schematics, it appears I could use the white wire to connect to the remote switch that comes with the ML-ACR. The purple “voltage sensing” wire to the IRD could be run up from the FRB and used for the LED.  I would need to add +12v and ground from the front run bay (directly below the switch).

The Trombetta, Amp-L-Start, and IRD would be removed.

What am I missing? Reading the above posts, apparently I need to run an additional wire for the remote, but if I already have the white wire running to the battery combiner and the purple wire to the IRD, it seems that those would work?

Also, would I need to make any changes to my alternator wiring? I plan to change out the alternator to the Delco unit before we go on our “big adventure” next year. 

Finally, (for bonus points🤣) I’m thinking I could pull the start signal “Isolation #1” from the starter solenoid.  Then, the next bay over I have the AGS module for my Magnum inverter. There is a generator run sense wire going to that. Could I piggyback on that as the “Isolation #2” signal for the generator?

Any and all advice appreciated. 

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Not sure how my Isolation solenoid is compared to yours but I had one ground wire White, that I used for the ML-ACR, and a wire from the BIRD which for me was Purple that also was the auxiliary switch wire, I just pulled the spade off the BIRD so that I could use the wire for the front switch.

I had to run one extra wire from the ML-ACR to the auxiliary start switch in the dash, this connected to the yellow wire.  This is what provides the light single to the switch showing what it's status is (ON, AUTO, OFF). 

Using the generator sense wire on my Bird is what I was going to do if I decide to isolate the ML-ACR when the generator was running, haven't done it yet but an easy fix to prevent the alternator from competing with the generator. 

Edited by jacwjames
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Scotty, as of now, I have not replaced a BIRD with the ML-ACR, but I'm sure I'll be faced with it at some time in the near future.  Sorry I can't help.  Paul Whittle may be able to help you.  I know you two guys are close friends.

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Van,

Great post! I am fairly new to all of this but I have had to figure a few things out so I'm not completely green. I am one who had the change the Duvac alt a few years ago! I also changed the large Isolator a year ago and I am faced with changing it again even tho I went with one rated at slightly higher amps than what I had. I'm not sure why there are two but the small one still works.

Needless too say, I want to save the alternator and I don't want to keep replacing the SSI so your post is exactly what I needed to see, especially because its a more efficient charge for the batteries from what I'm reading. That said, I am not familiar with the BIRD, IRD, Big boy, or the Lambert charger or where they are or if I even have them. Does your picture show any of those components or would I be removing them at this time? I have a Magnum inverter/charger which is all I know for sure.  

To do what you did in the pictures you provided, is seems simple enough to follow your wiring or should I study mine further to understand what all I have? I also see the ML-ACR has control wires...  are they defined in the installation instructions?

 Van, did you also replace the BIRD and IRD with the ML-ACR?

I apologize for all the questions. I am just afraid to get far into this and not come out the other end with it not working. I am an experienced mechanic so I think I know when to jump in and when not to but I would really appreciate anything you can help with!

Thanks again for posting!

Perry

P.S. I can download pictures of what I have if necessary although it is very similar to what you have since mine is just a year older Monaco.

 

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On 9/22/2021 at 4:08 PM, Perry Paul said:

Van,

Great post! I am fairly new to all of this but I have had to figure a few things out so I'm not completely green. I am one who had the change the Duvac alt a few years ago! I also changed the large Isolator a year ago and I am faced with changing it again even tho I went with one rated at slightly higher amps than what I had. I'm not sure why there are two but the small one still works.

Needless too say, I want to save the alternator and I don't want to keep replacing the SSI so your post is exactly what I needed to see, especially because its a more efficient charge for the batteries from what I'm reading. That said, I am not familiar with the BIRD, IRD, Big boy, or the Lambert charger or where they are or if I even have them. Does your picture show any of those components or would I be removing them at this time? I have a Magnum inverter/charger which is all I know for sure.  

To do what you did in the pictures you provided, is seems simple enough to follow your wiring or should I study mine further to understand what all I have? I also see the ML-ACR has control wires...  are they defined in the installation instructions?

 Van, did you also replace the BIRD and IRD with the ML-ACR?

I apologize for all the questions. I am just afraid to get far into this and not come out the other end with it not working. I am an experienced mechanic so I think I know when to jump in and when not to but I would really appreciate anything you can help with!

Thanks again for posting!

Perry

P.S. I can download pictures of what I have if necessary although it is very similar to what you have since mine is just a year older Monaco.

 

Perry, the first pix I posted shows the original SSI, the Lambert Charger, and the Battery Boost (Big Boy) contactor.  It also shows the original Master Cut-Off Switches for the Chassis and Coach.  I replaced those switches simply because of their age and that they looked gimpy.  The second pix shows the SSI, Lambert, and Big Boy removed and replaced by the ML-ACR.  The second pix also shows the two replacement Blue Sea Master Cut-Off switches installed.

It really is a very simple installation if you do not have a BIRD or IRD, and probably is only marginally more difficult if you DO have those two systems.  You will likely need to have at least (1) 4/0 cable made to suit your installation.  If you cannot locate the existing bundle of unused wires in the driver console that run to the engine area, you must run one additional wire if you wish to install the remote switch.  I highly recommend the remote switch.  You can activate any function of the ML-ACR using nothing but the yellow knob on top of the ML-ACR, but the remote switch is quite handy.

Once again, in summary, the ML-ACR does only ONE thing--It either connects both battery banks together, or disconnects them, based on whether a charging voltage (from ANY source) is present.  Your alternator will continue to charge your chassis batteries, regardless the position of the ML-ACR, and will charge both battery banks any time ANY charging source is available.  When you come to a stop and cut the engine off, the ML-ACR will have both your battery banks combined.  After a short delay with no charging voltage coming from the alternator, the ML-ACR will disconnect the battery banks, preserving your chassis batteries.  When you plug into a pedestal, your inverter/charger will present a charging voltage, and the ML-ACR will once again connect both battery banks until that charging voltage disappears.  The remote switch allows you to FORCE a disconnect of the two banks, or for battery boost requirements, FORCE them to be connected.

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Thanks for the clear explanation on how the MR-ACR works. Makes perfect sence. I have ordered the ML-ACR so I’ll probably install it next week.
 

I’m not sure where to look to see if I have a BIRD or IRD. I don’t see any other electronics near magnum inverter/ charger or in the engine compartment other than a surge protector. Would they be any where else? 

I’m so glad to found your post. I would have picked up another SSI since this one quit again within two years and maybe wrecked another alternator. 
 

Thanks again Van! So appreciated 
 

 

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17 minutes ago, Perry Paul said:

Thanks for the clear explanation on how the MR-ACR works. Makes perfect sence. I have ordered the ML-ACR so I’ll probably install it next week.
 

I’m not sure where to look to see if I have a BIRD or IRD. I don’t see any other electronics near magnum inverter/ charger or in the engine compartment other than a surge protector. Would they be any where else? 

I’m so glad to found your post. I would have picked up another SSI since this one quit again within two years and maybe wrecked another alternator. 
 

Thanks again Van! So appreciated 
 

 

Perry,

What coach do you have. 

Here is a link to what a BIRD looks like.  http://www.nwrvsupply.com/product/00-00839-000.html  

Mine is located in the rear passenger side electrical bay along with the Lambert maintainer and next to is is where my isolation relay was.  I simply removed the isolation relay and replaced it with the Bluesea ML-ACR. 

 

One of the previous posts had a picture of the IRD.

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Vanwill52 or jacwjames,

     With this upgrade… it’s not going to change the charging functions of the Xantrex RG7 invertor/charger will it?  There is no concern of boiling batteries is there?  Just making sure since it “connects itself” when a charge source is present.

     You’ve both left your solar panel hooked up as factory also?

i’ve already bought the unit, just waiting to get home and prepare for install.

thanks,

Mhrookie

     

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2 minutes ago, MHRookie said:

Vanwill52 or jacwjames,

     With this upgrade… it’s not going to change the charging functions of the Xantrex RG7 invertor/charger will it?  There is no concern of boiling batteries is there?  Just making sure since it “connects itself” when a charge source is present.

     You’ve both left your solar panel hooked up as factory also?

i’ve already bought the unit, just waiting to get home and prepare for install.

thanks,

Mhrookie

     

To my knowledge, the ML-ACR installation does not affect anything about the inverter/charger or any Automatic Generator Start features.  You are no more prone to "boiling batteries" than you were before installation.  I have about 1000 AH of battery power in (8) oversized 6 volt batteries.  I use much less water after installing the "Water Miser" extra-height cell caps.  When my coach is sitting for a month, it barely takes any distilled water at all.

Be prepared to make (or have made) and additional 4/0 cable or two.

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17 minutes ago, Jim Bob said:

Have been following this thread for a while now and had plans to do the ML ACR swap on my 95.  I just returned from a week of camping at the Bristol NASCAR race and noticed my house batts were no performing all that well.  Once I got home and inspected I had two cables that had become a little bit loose.  So I fixed those, but the batts are fairly old and not sure they are going to recover.  I'm now investigating switching to Lithium iron.  I currently have 4 6v with 75 AH each, so my rudimentary knowledge of batteries tells me I have about 150 AH available to me.  An upgrade to Lithium could get me about 200 AH for slightly more money, but they are supposed to last for 10 years.  The money seems to make sense, but the real advantage is the faster recharge rate compared to FLA.  I switched out my inverter and it has a lithium setting so I think that will work.  So, finally a question.... felt like you needed some background.  If I install the ML ACR and have lithium house batteries and FLA chassis batteries is the ML ACR "smart" enough to know not to charge the FLA batteries to fast?  Is there something else I should do if I go with the ML ACR and Lithium house batts? 

Thanks in advance.

Jim

No, the ML-ACR is not a "smart device" in that sense.  Its electronics only control whether or not it combines battery banks based on available charging source.  There are BLM devices sold by many lithium battery sources that accomplish the function you are seeking.

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Hi Van,

You asked what rig I have, it’s a 99 Monaco Executive with the 10k genny and M11 engine. No slides

Looking at your pix, is the lambert charger green and looks like a smaller SSI? 

I don’t think I have a BIRD or IRD that I can find so I should be good. 

Thanks again! 
Perry

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19 minutes ago, Perry Paul said:

Hi Van,

You asked what rig I have, it’s a 99 Monaco Executive with the 10k genny and M11 engine. No slides

Looking at your pix, is the lambert charger green and looks like a smaller SSI? 

I don’t think I have a BIRD or IRD that I can find so I should be good. 

Thanks again! 
Perry

Yes, Lambert charger is green.

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On 9/19/2021 at 10:53 AM, Scotty Hutto said:

Looking at the schematics, it appears I could use the white wire to connect to the remote switch that comes with the ML-ACR. The purple “voltage sensing” wire to the IRD could be run up from the FRB and used for the LED.  I would need to add +12v and ground from the front run bay (directly below the switch).

Follow-up…

Upon further investigation, the white wire going to the Trombetta is a ground and does not go all the way to the front run bay (FRB). The purple wire does make it to the FRB, but after going through two connectors (one of which ties to a relay tied to the IRD), it changes to a purple/black wire by the time it arrives at the Battery Boost switch.

Upon further consideration I plan to run new wiring for the ML-ACR. Since I must run new wire to have full functionality of the ML-ACR switch, I plan to run a 4 or 5 conductor cable from the battery bay to the FRB, have a few extra wires on that route, and leave the existing wiring intact.

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On 8/7/2021 at 7:28 AM, jacwjames said:

There is an option to isolate the two systems if the generator is running by connecting one wire to the generator sense wire.  

The thread that doesn't die. Can you please explain how to locate the above referenced generator sense wire? I travel almost exclusively with the genny running to power the house a/c systems. Living in the Phoenix southwest area it is rarely cool enough to run only the dash air. I have googled the phrase and I come up with nothing except alternator sense wire. 

Thanks

Ken

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43 minutes ago, Grampy OG said:

The thread that doesn't die. Can you please explain how to locate the above referenced generator sense wire? I travel almost exclusively with the genny running to power the house a/c systems. Living in the Phoenix southwest area it is rarely cool enough to run only the dash air. I have googled the phrase and I come up with nothing except alternator sense wire. 

Thanks

Ken

The generator sense wire is the wire that powers the red light showing the generator is running. I don't think it runs to the rear of the coach.  You may be able to pick it up in the FRB, otherwise you'll have to go to the nearest generator with our the generator itself. 

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There is also a generator sense wire that runs to your AGS module (if you have one).  Fortunately for me, mine is in the bay next to the battery compartment, so it’s a short run from that generator sense wire to my ML-ACR (but I haven’t hooked it up yet 🤦🏻‍♂️).

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I have a generator sense wire going to my BIRD in my passenger side rear electrical compartment.   Also have one to the AGS.  Also one in my inverter, which is not used but simply passes through.  There is also a generator sense wire running to the two generator start buttons, this is what powers the light indicating the generator is running.  No doubt there is also one running to the RG7 panel.   On my coach it is a blue wire. 

If you have a wiring schematic it will be on it. 

Edited by jacwjames
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5 hours ago, jacwjames said:

I have a generator sense wire going to my BIRD in my passenger side rear electrical compartment.   Also have one to the AGS.  Also one in my inverter, which is not used but simply passes through.  There is also a generator sense wire running to the two generator start buttons, this is what powers the light indicating the generator is running.  No doubt there is also one running to the RG7 panel.   On my coach it is a blue wire. 

If you have a wiring schematic it will be on it. 

Thanks again guys. I start the big install tomorrow. I think I have all of my ducks in a row. I am wondering because I haven't been able to play with the system:

#1 if once installed, if I leave the batteries isolated with the switch will the generator continue to charge the house batteries and the alternator charge the chassis batteries while traveling? If so hitting the disconnect from the dash is easy enough.

#2 the way the system is currently setup with the Lambert battery maintainer the chassis while parked and connected to shore power only receives a trickle charge and so does not overcharge the chassis batteries. If the ML-ACR is always charging both banks when it is connected to shore power what stops it from overcharging the chassis batteries. My mind is telling me that once the engine shuts off the charge must come from the inverter and once it goes into float mode neither bank should overcharge. Am I on the right track here? Hooking up is one thing but I really like to know the theory of the system as well. 

#3 I am not shy about anything electrical but still a bit puzzled as to where to pull the domestic side of the 12v+. My RRB is quite different from what Van started with so I am going to add a couple shots of the schematic and a picture of my existing RRB setup. What to delete and what to keep advice would not hurt my feelings. I know that the BigBoy and Lambert go out the door but there are quite a few wires in here. 

Thanks a million gang,

I just want reliable charging. 

Included 2 slightly diff views of the RBB and Monaco schematic of the RBB split to make picture taking easier. 

KensRBB view 2.jpg

KensRRB.jpg

RBB view 2.jpg

RRB view 1.jpg

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36 minutes ago, Grampy OG said:

Thanks again guys. I start the big install tomorrow. I think I have all of my ducks in a row. I am wondering because I haven't been able to play with the system:

#1 if once installed, if I leave the batteries isolated with the switch will the generator continue to charge the house batteries and the alternator charge the chassis batteries while traveling? If so hitting the disconnect from the dash is easy enough.

#2 the way the system is currently setup with the Lambert battery maintainer the chassis while parked and connected to shore power only receives a trickle charge and so does not overcharge the chassis batteries. If the ML-ACR is always charging both banks when it is connected to shore power what stops it from overcharging the chassis batteries. My mind is telling me that once the engine shuts off the charge must come from the inverter and once it goes into float mode neither bank should overcharge. Am I on the right track here? Hooking up is one thing but I really like to know the theory of the system as well. 

#3 I am not shy about anything electrical but still a bit puzzled as to where to pull the domestic side of the 12v+. My RRB is quite different from what Van started with so I am going to add a couple shots of the schematic and a picture of my existing RRB setup. What to delete and what to keep advice would not hurt my feelings. I know that the BigBoy and Lambert go out the door but there are quite a few wires in here. 

Thanks a million gang,

I just want reliable charging. 

Included 2 slightly diff views of the RBB and Monaco schematic of the RBB split to make picture taking easier. 

KensRBB view 2.jpg

KensRRB.jpg

RBB view 2.jpg

RRB view 1.jpg

Ken, I think it will become more clear to you as you begin removing things.  You will remove the blue SSI, the green Lambert, and the Big Boy (Battery Boost) contactor.  You'll then have plenty of room for the ML-ACR.  The center cable on your SSI is ALWAYS from the alternator.  You connect that center cable AND the cable going to your chassis batteries TOGETHER onto either of the large posts of the ML-ACR.  That means your alternator will ALWAYS be charging your chassis batteries anytime your engine is running.  Connect the other cable on your SSI (it is from your house batteries) to the OTHER large post on the ML-ACR.

BE SURE BOTH HOUSE AND CHASSIS BATTERY CABLES ARE NOT "HOT" BEFORE YOU BEGIN!!!

The present wires going to the Lambert Charger you can either remove or simply cover in heat-shrink tubing and tie out of the way.  You can do the same with the small wires going to the Big Boy.

You will almost surely have to make additional cables to extend their reach to the ML-ACR, or make a workmanlike extension, covered in double layers of heat-shrink tubing.

Before you start, insure that you have enough additional 4/0 cable and all the copper end lugs you will need.  Be sure you buy WELDING cable, NOT battery cable.  Battery cable is MUCH less flexible and difficult to work with.  I have run so many 4/0 cables on mine and other's coaches that I have a large assortment of the lugs and a cheap $60 Chinese hydraulic crimper (Amazon) that makes a hexagon crimp on the lugs.  Buy 4/0 lugs with the smallest available hole, and you will only need one part number.  Enlarge the hole to suit using one of the multi-step drill tools.  DO NOT USE A DRILL BIT!  It will INEVITABLY grab in the copper material as you break thru.  Use heat-shrink tubing on all your crimps and remember to slide the heat-shrink on the cable BEFORE you crimp the lug!

Question #1--YES

Question # 2--YES, your inverter/charger will be applying its 3-stage charging to BOTH your house and chassis batteries.  No problem with overcharging.

Question #3--The house side of your battery bank (according to your diagram) is the bottom cable on the SSI.  That IS your B+ for the house batteries.  It IS the cable that will connect (alone) to one of the ML-ACR large lugs.  The OTHER large lug on the ML-ACR will have your ALTERNATOR output and your CHASSIS battery cable lugs connected (together).

You are welcome to private message me (or post your cell number) and we can exchange cell numbers, so I can help you.  I don't answer calls from numbers I do not recognize.

Good luck!  It is much simpler than it seems.  Just remember that the ML-ACR uses some internal circuitry similar to BIRD circuitry to accomplish only ONE thing--it either CONNECTS both of the large lugs of the ML-ACR together (charging all batteries from any available source) or it DISCONNECTS the chassis batteries from the house batteries (when there is no charging source) to PRESERVE the chassis battery charge.

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2 hours ago, Grampy OG said:

Thanks again guys. I start the big install tomorrow. I think I have all of my ducks in a row. I am wondering because I haven't been able to play with the system:

#1 if once installed, if I leave the batteries isolated with the switch will the generator continue to charge the house batteries and the alternator charge the chassis batteries while traveling? If so hitting the disconnect from the dash is easy enough.

#2 the way the system is currently setup with the Lambert battery maintainer the chassis while parked and connected to shore power only receives a trickle charge and so does not overcharge the chassis batteries. If the ML-ACR is always charging both banks when it is connected to shore power what stops it from overcharging the chassis batteries. My mind is telling me that once the engine shuts off the charge must come from the inverter and once it goes into float mode neither bank should overcharge. Am I on the right track here? Hooking up is one thing but I really like to know the theory of the system as well. 

#3 I am not shy about anything electrical but still a bit puzzled as to where to pull the domestic side of the 12v+. My RRB is quite different from what Van started with so I am going to add a couple shots of the schematic and a picture of my existing RRB setup. What to delete and what to keep advice would not hurt my feelings. I know that the BigBoy and Lambert go out the door but there are quite a few wires in here. 

Thanks a million gang,

I just want reliable charging. 

Included 2 slightly diff views of the RBB and Monaco schematic of the RBB split to make picture taking easier. 

KensRBB view 2.jpg

KensRRB.jpg

RBB view 2.jpg

RRB view 1.jpg

Generally speaking, the disconnect switches disconnect LOADS, not SOURCES.   That applies to the dash salesman switch also.  

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8 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Generally speaking, the disconnect switches disconnect LOADS, not SOURCES.   That applies to the dash salesman switch also.  

Lucky me. I just spent 1 hour on the phone with Paul Whittle and all of my fuzziness has been clarified. Time now to yank out the tools and Git 'Er Dun.....

 

Thanks again everyone

Ken

 

56 minutes ago, vanwill52 said:

Ken, I think it will become more clear to you as you begin removing things.  You will remove the blue SSI, the green Lambert, and the Big Boy (Battery Boost) contactor.  You'll then have plenty of room for the ML-ACR.  The center cable on your SSI is ALWAYS from the alternator.  You connect that center cable AND the cable going to your chassis batteries TOGETHER onto either of the large posts of the ML-ACR.  That means your alternator will ALWAYS be charging your chassis batteries anytime your engine is running.  Connect the other cable on your SSI (it is from your house batteries) to the OTHER large post on the ML-ACR.

BE SURE BOTH HOUSE AND CHASSIS BATTERY CABLES ARE NOT "HOT" BEFORE YOU BEGIN!!!

The present wires going to the Lambert Charger you can either remove or simply cover in heat-shrink tubing and tie out of the way.  You can do the same with the small wires going to the Big Boy.

You will almost surely have to make additional cables to extend their reach to the ML-ACR, or make a workmanlike extension, covered in double layers of heat-shrink tubing.

Before you start, insure that you have enough additional 4/0 cable and all the copper end lugs you will need.  Be sure you buy WELDING cable, NOT battery cable.  Battery cable is MUCH less flexible and difficult to work with.  I have run so many 4/0 cables on mine and other's coaches that I have a large assortment of the lugs and a cheap $60 Chinese hydraulic crimper (Amazon) that makes a hexagon crimp on the lugs.  Buy 4/0 lugs with the smallest available hole, and you will only need one part number.  Enlarge the hole to suit using one of the multi-step drill tools.  DO NOT USE A DRILL BIT!  It will INEVITABLY grab in the copper material as you break thru.  Use heat-shrink tubing on all your crimps and remember to slide the heat-shrink on the cable BEFORE you crimp the lug!

Question #1--YES

Question # 2--YES, your inverter/charger will be applying its 3-stage charging to BOTH your house and chassis batteries.  No problem with overcharging.

Question #3--The house side of your battery bank (according to your diagram) is the bottom cable on the SSI.  That IS your B+ for the house batteries.  It IS the cable that will connect (alone) to one of the ML-ACR large lugs.  The OTHER large lug on the ML-ACR will have your ALTERNATOR output and your CHASSIS battery cable lugs connected (together).

You are welcome to private message me (or post your cell number) and we can exchange cell numbers, so I can help you.  I don't answer calls from numbers I do not recognize.

Good luck!  It is much simpler than it seems.  Just remember that the ML-ACR uses some internal circuitry similar to BIRD circuitry to accomplish only ONE thing--it either CONNECTS both of the large lugs of the ML-ACR together (charging all batteries from any available source) or it DISCONNECTS the chassis batteries from the house batteries (when there is no charging source) to PRESERVE the chassis battery charge.

Thanks Van. We actually phone chatted about this back in early July but I was on the road and tossed it on the backburner. All your suggestions are heartly taken.

Ken

 

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Red - Items and wires to remove these
Blue - New ML-ACR
Yellow - Chassis batteries connection to ML-ACR
Purple - House batteries connection to ML-ACR

You need to make the small wire connections to the ML-ACR

image.png.df08f07502f29338cf6af8658597494a.png

 

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