Need help for continuing to modify Suspension

[Cubflyer]

 

JD,.... and Van,

Am I seeing shims where your axle mounts to the H frame in this photo? or is it an optical illusion? and it looks thicker in the front than the rear....??  Wouldn't that stand the kingpin more vertical? and take some caster out?... again, it might be an optical illusion.... the more positive or negative caster from perpendicular (to the ground) the harder it is to make the wheel take a new direction.... zero caster angle will be pretty squirrelly....  Something to check.

JD your last driving report, seemed to me to indicate that the coach did not want to go straight even without and 'outside' influences... ie: wind, passing trucks, rough terrain..... I would not expect a sway bar to help if the coach will not track straight (without steering input).  

Van I totally agree that the watts link is best mounted opposite the axle from the panhard rod... unfortunately the one I bought was not designed to fit in the front of the front axle and I mounted it to the rear, it still did wonders for my wondering coach.  I was considering installing it on the front, but like you said, it takes some modifications to make it fit up there.

 

 

[JDCrow]

7 minutes ago, Cubflyer said:

 

JD,.... and Van,

Am I seeing shims where your axle mounts to the H frame in this photo? or is it an optical illusion? and it looks thicker in the front than the rear....??  Wouldn't that stand the kingpin more vertical? and take some caster out?... again, it might be an optical illusion.... the more positive or negative caster from perpendicular (to the ground) the harder it is to make the wheel take a new direction.... zero caster angle will be pretty squirrelly....  Something to check.

JD your last driving report, seemed to me to indicate that the coach did not want to go straight even without and 'outside' influences... ie: wind, passing trucks, rough terrain..... I would not expect a sway bar to help if the coach will not track straight (without steering input).  

Van I totally agree that the watts link is best mounted opposite the axle from the panhard rod... unfortunately the one I bought was not designed to fit in the front of the front axle and I mounted it to the rear, it still did wonders for my wondering coach.  I was considering installing it on the front, but like you said, it takes some modifications to make it fit up there.

 

 

let me go look at the axle for shims

[Cubflyer]

JD,

When I mounted my front sway bar, per the instructions, the way the upper (frame) mounts were designed to go around the frame cross member (using long bolts and a top plate) it made the links angle/lean to the rear, not be straight up and down.  I added (by welding) a piece of 3" x 1" x 3/16" angle iron across between the main frames just forward of the original cross member and mounted the bracket with one bolt through each cross member.  This made the links vertical and used short bolts instead of long bolts.   The cross member has cut outs for wiring and such and really can not support the clamping action of those long bolts.

I will send photos when I get back near my coach....next week.

Ken

[JDCrow]

11 minutes ago, Cubflyer said:

JD,

When I mounted my front sway bar, per the instructions, the way the upper (frame) mounts were designed to go around the frame cross member (using long bolts and a top plate) it made the links angle/lean to the rear, not be straight up and down.  I added (by welding) a piece of 3" x 1" x 3/16" angle iron across between the main frames just forward of the original cross member and mounted the bracket with one bolt through each cross member.  This made the links vertical and used short bolts instead of long bolts.   The cross member has cut outs for wiring and such and really can not support the clamping action of those long bolts.

I will send photos when I get back near my coach....next week.

Ken

Ok thanks

BTW the axle mounts are flat, no shims or tapering 

[Happycarz]

JD, you might want to back off the steering box adjustment screw just a bit.  If too tight, it will have the internal gears in a constant bind when in the centered position.  Also, when snugging down the jam nut, the adjustment screw tends to rotate with it, maybe causing an overly tight condition.  Then again, you may have it spot on. Dunno.
Once I have the lash set, I always hold the adjust screw in position as I tighten the jam nut. 
As a side note, I use Kroil as my penetrating oil to make sure that both the adjusting screw moves freely with my fingers in the gearbox, and the jam nut can be spun on the adjustment screw with my fingers.

The ancient Miller Tools No. 199's are still available on eBay for $10-15 and sure help In tight quarters.

 

[JDCrow]

3 minutes ago, Happycarz said:

JD, you might want to back off the steering box adjustment screw just a bit.  If too tight, it will have the internal gears in a constant bind when in the centered position.  Also, when snugging down the jam nut, the adjustment screw tends to rotate with it, maybe causing an overly tight condition.  Then again, you may have it spot on. Dunno.
Once I have the lash set, I always hold the adjust screw in position as I tighten the jam nut. 
As a side note, I use Kroil as my penetrating oil to make sure that both the adjusting screw moves freely with my fingers in the gearbox, and the jam nut can be spun on the adjustment screw with my fingers.

The ancient Miller Tools No. 199's are still available on eBay for $10-15 and sure help In tight quarters.

 

Thanks! kroil is great stuff for sure. There is still just a smidge Of play in the wheel,  but if it went straight, I’d live with it

[Cubflyer]

JD,

This photo shows my modified mounting of the upper sway bar link brackets.  Since the sway bar was installed first, the watts link that I put on later is not in the photo.  Up in the photo is aft on the coach.  The added angle iron piece is the lower (forward) piece.  It brings the mount point forward and the links to a 90 degree angle to the sway bar at normal ride height.  Maybe my coach was unique but the as designed mounting was terrible. 

 

[JDCrow]

50 minutes ago, Cubflyer said:

JD,

This photo shows my modified mounting of the upper sway bar link brackets.  Since the sway bar was installed first, the watts link that I put on later is not in the photo.  Up in the photo is aft on the coach.  The added angle iron piece is the lower (forward) piece.  It brings the mount point forward and the links to a 90 degree angle to the sway bar at normal ride height.  Maybe my coach was unique but the as designed mounting was terrible. 

 

Thanks! Is your bar in front or behind the axle? I assume behind as you said Watts isn’t in picture. Do you have 4 Jack leveling? Mine is 3 Jack and would be dead center in your pic. 

[vanwill52]

Sorry.  Temporarily unavailable.  Medical problems for my wife.

[JDCrow]

1 hour ago, vanwill52 said:

Sorry.  Temporarily unavailable.  Medical problems for my wife.

Please take care, thoughts with you 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by JDCrow

[Cubflyer]

yes behind the axle and a 4 post leveling, unlike your single front jack post.

[vanwill52]

At the risk of being repetitive, I remind all of you trying to cure wandering that there is nothing magic or mystical about why your coach wanders left or right.  It is simply going exactly where its wheels are pointing.  If you can keep your wheels pointed straight ahead CONSTANTLY, even in the face or wind or road abnormalities, your coach will continue in a straight path.

When a gust of wind hits the side of your coach and blows you to one side of your lane or the other, it is NOT because your tires are magically "slipping sideways".  The gust of wind was able to twist your H-frame(s) in relation to the centerline of your coach and change the direction in which your wheels are pointing. When you turn your steering wheel to recover, what you are doing is compensating for the H-frame having twisted and changed the direction the wheels were pointing.

If you had the physical strength, you could lie under your coach, grasp the front and rear crossmembers of your H-frame and twist it left and right.  The pivot point would be where the H-frame attaches to the Panhard rod.  I used to demonstrate this by carrying an 8-foot length of 2" square tubing in my coach.  I could plug that into your hitch receiver and two stout fellows could grab the extended end of that piece of tubing and push it side-to-side.  When they got into the right rhythm, it would amaze you how much they could cause the body of the coach (especially the front) to move side-to-side WHILE THE FRONT WHEELS OBVIOUSLY DID NOT MOVE.  That is how loosely the H-frames are attached to the coach chassis.  Prevent that movement, and you have cured your wandering.

On the subject of anti-sway bars--I happen to be a "believer" in them doing what they are designed to do.  They are designed to minimize body roll, especially under extreme conditions like rolling over the curb entering a Walmart lot (the infamous "Walmart wobble").  Under those conditions, they do the job for which they were intended.  But just as with shock absorbers, when you are traveling down a smooth, straight highway with no other vehicles in sight, the anti-sway bar can do NOTHING to contribute to eliminating your wandering.  How could it?--it is barely moving.  The same can be said for shocks absorbers.  Anti-sway bars, necessarily, have vertical links that allow the axle to twist in relation to the coach frame.  Those vertical links prevent them from stabilizing the H-frame even a modest amount.

And BTW, "shock absorbers" is a bad misnomer.  They do NOTHING to "absorb" shocks.  They TRANSMIT shocks to the coach chassis in varying degrees, depending on how stiffly they are valved.  What they ARE is "motion dampers"--they resist being either compressed or extended, again in varying degrees depending on their valving.  Anyone who reports that he installed stiffer shocks on his coach and the result was "reduced rebound"  AND "smoother ride" is the first person in history to defy the laws of physics and the practice of mechanical engineering.

I suspect I am the only person on this, or any other forum, who cured his wandering with X-bars and Watts link, THEN totally removed all eight shocks and went for an extended ride on country roads and highways to see if having NO shocks would affect wandering.  IT DID NOT.  Rebound was worse, and recovering from a pre-planned "panic lane change" was sloppy, but the coach still tracked perfectly on smooth, level, straight roads.  And, of course, that was the "smoothest" it ever rode.

Shocks, anti-sway bars, and "steering stabilizers will NOT cure wandering, simply because they do not address the core issue--the platform to which your wheels are attached is "squirming" around under your coach, even as you travel down a smooth, level, straight highway.  Stabilize that platform, such that it acts as a rigid pivot should, and your wandering is cured.

And should anyone come up with an idea to employ X-bars on the FRONT of a 1994 or newer Roadmaster chassis, please share it with me.  I spent untold hours trying to come up with such an idea and I failed...hence, the Watts link solution.  I'm getting a bit long in the tooth to enjoy wallowing around on a concrete floor, but to try out a plausible idea, I would do it.  Yes, David, I will use multiple 12-ton jack stands.  😄

[dl_racing427]

Van,

I'd be very interested in seeing your solution for using X-Bars on both ends of the pre-94 Roadmaster chassis.
My 93 Dynasty could use some help in this dept.

PS: Thanks for being safe. 😀

[JDCrow]

On 10/22/2021 at 2:11 PM, Cubflyer said:

yes behind the axle and a 4 post leveling, unlike your single front jack post.

Thanks. Appointment tomorrow with a Fab shop to see if I can move Front Watts to the forward side of axle

[vanwill52]

13 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

Van,

I'd be very interested in seeing your solution for using X-Bars on both ends of the pre-94 Roadmaster chassis.
My 93 Dynasty could use some help in this dept.

PS: Thanks for being safe. 😀

David, I'll look to see if I still have some pix.  It was very simple to do.

[dl_racing427]

5 hours ago, vanwill52 said:

David, I'll look to see if I still have some pix.  It was very simple to do.

That would be awesome.  Simple is usually the best solution. 😀

[vanwill52]

11 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

That would be awesome.  Simple is usually the best solution. 😀

David, check your private messages.  Send me your personal email address and cell number.  I've got something for you.

[JDCrow]

Well fab shop was a bust. Not sure how this guy gets anything done. Shop is hoarded up with all his personal garage stuff. 
 

Have a mobile fab guy looking at it. It made it down here so put the steering saftey and sway bar on and keep it at 55

Tires showed up 5 days late. So now so get to spend 5 hours today driving to go fetch them

[Bob Nodine]

JD, have you checked the alignment of your rear axle? Often the rear axle is not square and perpendicular to the direction of travel and will cause a constant pull either left or right. I mention this because you made a comment about the coach not wanting to go straight. On a level and straight road you should be able to turn loose of the steering wheel and the coach should continue straight.

Bob

 

Van,

Hope Sandy is OK.

Bob

 

[JDCrow]

1 hour ago, Bob Nodine said:

JD, have you checked the alignment of your rear axle? Often the rear axle is not square and perpendicular to the direction of travel and will cause a constant pull either left or right. I mention this because you made a comment about the coach not wanting to go straight. On a level and straight road you should be able to turn loose of the steering wheel and the coach should continue straight.

Bob

 

Van,

Hope Sandy is OK.

Bob

 

I had the front aligned, but the shop did not have ability to aligned the rear. 

[vanwill52]

3 hours ago, Bob Nodine said:

Van,

Hope Sandy is OK.

Bob

 

Thanks, Bob.  She is really having a tough time.  Trigeminal Neuralgia is such a rare condition (one in 15,000) that very few practitioners in the entire country have any experience with it.  The pain is excruciating.  If you Google "suicide disease", Trigeminal Neuralgia pops up.

[JDCrow]

So the fab for moving Watts isn't going to happen till we get home. That’s ok as we were under a time crunch and really I wouldn’t trust just anyone, so we will power on.

I’ll be adding the safety steer back on as it got us here, and it will take us home. I’ll install the front sway bar as an added bonus, I’ll report it I really notice anything with it. 
 

New rear tires got installed. Really great guy with a mobile set up. He has a fixed location in Parker, and uses the mobile to hit Havasu and the Desert areas. 
 

Thanks everyone here for your help and input. 
 

Question on air pressure:

I always check air pressure before I leave, every time. 
 

I run 95 front and 105 rear based on the weights from the scales. 
When I left Yuma a week ago, it was hit outside and all the tires were at 110 psi, so o dropped them to my normal “cold” pressure. Was this a mistake? It’s the first time for me in the heat with tires and got to thinking maybe my wandering was amplified with my air pressure. Any advise on what I should have done?

Edited October 26, 2021 by JDCrow
Spelling

[Cubflyer]

>>>>>>>>>I run 95 front and 105 rear based on the weights from the scales. 
When I left Yuma a week ago, it was hit outside and all the tires were at 110 psi, so o dropped them to my normal “cold” pressure. Was this a mistake? It’s the first time for me in the heat with tires and got to thinking maybe my wandering was amplified with my air pressure. Any advise on what I should have done?<<<<<<<<<

 

That tire iron photo looks like all kinds of fun!!...

The weights on my axles (Front and Rear) work out to where my rear axle has about twice the weight as the front, so the two fronts pressure should be about 85-90psi and the same for the rear (based on the weight/tire pressure chart for my tires... Brand/model/size....) each tire carrying approx 4500 lbs of weight (9k front, 18k back axle weights)  I have experienced 'wandering/squirrely' driving vehicles when the tires were over-inflated, lowered the pressure and they tracked better...

I have a tire pressure monitor system and have found the tp's  go up between 10-15 psi when driving, so if you start high they get higher..... before I had the axle weights and was inflating the tires to 100-110 psi I was getting "over pressure warnings on my monitoring system.

 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R6H6T37/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Ken

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Cubflyer
clarify

[JDCrow]

3 hours ago, Cubflyer said:

>>>>>>>>>I run 95 front and 105 rear based on the weights from the scales. 
When I left Yuma a week ago, it was hit outside and all the tires were at 110 psi, so o dropped them to my normal “cold” pressure. Was this a mistake? It’s the first time for me in the heat with tires and got to thinking maybe my wandering was amplified with my air pressure. Any advise on what I should have done?<<<<<<<<<

 

That tire iron photo looks like all kinds of fun!!...

The weights on my axles (Front and Rear) work out to where my rear axle has about twice the weight as the front, so the two fronts pressure should be about 85-90psi and the same for the rear (based on the weight/tire pressure chart for my tires... Brand/model/size....) each tire carrying approx 4500 lbs of weight (9k front, 18k back axle weights)  I have experienced 'wandering/squirrely' driving vehicles when the tires were over-inflated, lowered the pressure and they tracked better...

I have a tire pressure monitor system and have found the tp's  go up between 10-15 psi when driving, so if you start high they get higher..... before I had the axle weights and was inflating the tires to 100-110 psi I was getting "over pressure warnings on my monitoring system.

 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R6H6T37/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Ken

 

Thanks Ken, have you ever dropped to Cold pressure because your tires were over desired pressure when you started the day? 

[Cubflyer]

I always fill my tires to cold pressures when my tires are cold, usually in the morning so sun has not been shining on them.  Last summer I started my trip at about 200' above sea level.... traveled to Denver... about 5000' above sea level, on to SLC, again even higher..... and also the temps were warmer.  I monitored my tire pressures with that cheapo TPS and never added or removed any air.... I did use a mechanical TP gauge (dial type) once on the 6 week trip, just to confirm my cheapo TPS... (the TPS is not super accurate, but is a good 'reference' and does show temperatures too, gives audio warnings for high or low pressure and at least high temps...)  My tires have never 'gained' pressure except for by the heat generated while going down the road...... at least not enough for me to notice... I'm not 'super sensitive' .... more of a horse shoe and hand grenades when it comes to tire pressure.