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Roadmaster 8 airbag suspension H frame movement and resulting wandering


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On 4/14/2022 at 10:13 AM, vanwill52 said:

Start by reducing your steering wheel lost motion to ZERO.  If you have a Sheppard steering box, replace it with TRW.  Don't believe the hogwash about "blueprinting" a Sheppard gear.  If you have a TRW steering gear, adjust it to zero play when the wheels are pointed DEAD AHEAD.

 

Hello,

vanwill52, 

Perhaps I haven't read enough of the form, but could you please explain the procedure for doing this?  Or guide me to where I need to read?  I have a 1999 Windsor with the TAS65 steering gearbox.  I have installed the MonacoWatts crossbars in the rear, and the MonacoWatts linkage in the front.  I realize I should have reduced the lost motion to ZERO first, but knowledge doesn't always come sequentially.

 

Thanks, and happy trails.

Jef

20230510_140018.jpg

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I'm sure Van will chime in with how he does the gearbox adjustment.  With experience it can be done without removing the drag link as explained in the TRW manual.  Here is a link to files on the TRW procedure.

https://www.monacoers.org/files/category/27-steering-drive-tag-axles/

 

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Mr. McElroy, thanks for the info and links. 

I haven't been able to try my Monacowatts upgrades yet. 

Had to cancel my trip last week to visit sick friend.  Then I get home and spend three days in bed with a cold.  Recovering now, but takes longer than in my 30's.

Thanks again, happy trails,

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On the side of the TRW is a 3/4” jam nut on a large screw/bolt with a straight slot in the end. A inch of slop will only take less than 30 degrees CW. Do 15 and see how much you still have… more small adjustments are better than one big one as you don’t want it to bind.

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It is a very simple procedure.  We old gearheads had to keep adjusting the steering boxes that had to be lubricated every 3,000 miles….back in the 50 & 60’s.

I installed my Watts link at Van’s place and then he tweaked my box afterwards.  I had a bit over 50K on it and he said it barely took any adjustment.

unless your box is worn or has a lot of play, i would expect that you might not even feel the change….but you never know.

If you are still not satisfied, adding an adjustable steering stabilizer will make a decided improvement.  I and our founder had the Blue Ox on our rigs and we both commented that the leverage or impact of the steering stabilizer increased….AFTER we installed the Watts link. That reduces the driver fatigue….the stabilizer, pre watts, also decreases the “driver’s impact.  The Monaco power steering is overpowered.  As a newbie in 2009, i learned on the old forum how to properly drive the Monaco MH.  You steer with one hand and have it almost at 1:00.  Then the other hand is the “stabilizer” and is actually holding the wheel and keeping it from wandering.  Typically at 7 - 8:00.  The stabilizer i added at 10K reduced the need for that technique, but when you went to the preferred 10:00 & 2:00 hold, there was still some motion and you had to sort of pull down on each side and make a concerted effort NOT to see saw the wheel.

With the Watts and my Blue Ox, i now drive in preferred (defensive driving and competitive driving schools teach this in the first session) position of 10:30 & 1:30.  I don’t have to fight the wheel.  I have way less fatigue…..decidedly so.  

Good luck.

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Regarding adjusting the TLW steering box to zero play, what is the best way to measure the play in the wheel? I know when you turn the wheel there could be movement all the way to the tires flexing... How do I test to see what portion of that is in the steering box? Can it be done with everything still connected or does things need to be disconnected to take the loads off?

EDITED:  Nevermind, I downloaded the adjustment procedure and it explains it.

Thanks Dennis, 2005 Windsor

Edited by Dennis N - 2005 Windsor
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Not sure which side I like the best. Without a doubt this is the tool I use the most. I did use it and a 6” crescent wrench to adjust the TRW within the first 200 miles of owning our 08 Navigator.

IMG_6517.jpeg

Edited by Ivylog
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Moderator Note & Merging

@Mike N

Moderator EDIT...There is an ongoing topic that has a good history as well as current information.  Please review it and you will find a lot of the basics that you need.  Your new Topic was merged as it is basically a repeat of the same questions that many ask..

Thanks...

I am considering the Watts Link for my 2008 Monaco Diplomat.  Does anyone out there have experience with it.  Good results?  Front and rear both or either?  I appreciate any feedback.

Edited by Tom Cherry
Duplicate of current topic
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Guest RDGreenlief

I followed the thread on IRV2 and built my own front and rear watts links as well as the sway bars for the rear.  The people there really knew what they were doing.  As I understand the "hughes" (I believe that's his last name) watts link is really good.  With a design similar to theirs, I went from a dancing nelly in the wind to something that I drive with little steering wheel movement even in very strong winds.  I was fortunate enough to already have the TRW steering box, so after having replace the two tie rod ends on the drag link, my windsor is as stable as could be.  This is probably the best way to tame a Monaco or Holiday Rambler.  Go to IRV2 and look for a "wandering" link.  That should convince you that the upgrades are worth it.  I believe there is similar thread here.

Dennis Greenlief

2003 Monaco Windsor 40DST

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Hi again Mike,

Which of the items made the most difference?  Would you suggest doing everything at once.  We are full time with no place or tools to DIY so will use a dealer.

 

Thanks again,

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Guest RDGreenlief
Just now, Mike N said:

Hi again Mike,

Which of the items made the most difference?  Would you suggest doing everything at once.  We are full time with no place or tools to DIY so will use a dealer.

 

Thanks again,

Mike;

I was kind of an incrementalist.  I did the rear sway bars first and almost immediately built the from watts link.  I got a lot of help from that.  Next I built the rear watts link and that did help stabilize things some more.  I kept looking for improvement and that was when I found a bad tie rod end on the drag link.  After replacing both tie rod ends was when I got the stable platform I have now.  I've put probably 20k miles on it since and have had no concerns.  I know it is a lot of money to do, but I would look at both watts link and the rear sway bars.  I you don't have a TRW steering box that would be the first thing I would replace.

Dennis

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13 minutes ago, Mike N said:

Hi again Mike,

Which of the items made the most difference?  Would you suggest doing everything at once.  We are full time with no place or tools to DIY so will use a dealer.

 

Thanks again,

Summary that pertains to your chassis....as the Dynasty and above are much different.  I have a Single Axle Camelot and the Chassis are equivalent.  This is my take on it.  Others may differ...but for your questions...

  1. First, it is almost ADAMANT that you have a TRW steering box to get the maximum or full impact of the Watts Links.  You need to identify that.  If you GOOGLE TRW Steering Pittman Arm and you just look at how the the box is connected to the steering.  If yours has the outside bolt clamp....TRW.  If it does not and there are some bolts or whatever...  Shepherd...Google Shepherd.  There is also a bunch of info on the Shepherd site.  There is a company that specializes in the conversion.  It is listed in the topic that his is merged into.  Memory says $800 or so for parts....but that is from the posts.  Probably $500 - $700 for install.....but that is shop dependent.  Most do their own conversion....    https://mrsteeringspecialist.com/product/ross-trw-pitman-steering-arm-box-448164/
  2. IF you have the TRW box, it will need to be adjusted to take our the play.  There is a cheap special tool that is discussed.  I think an adjustable wrench and a combo wrench and maybe a screwdrivers (short) will work. NOT a hard job... @vanwill52 was kind enough to tweak mine....but he was a GREAT supervisor who made sure that I fully did the Hughes Watts Link....MYSELF...LOL...
  3. Mike Hughes sells the kits. I bought mine there.  I put it on myself.  It can be done with just hand tools....but you need a torque wrench.  He has instructions. An Air Compressor will be needed for the TRW swap.  But an airline and air 90 degree ratchet helped.  You need  simple grease gun....sockets and wrenches are easy to find.  I did it under the MH....  BTW, I am 78 and did it 5 years ago and it took maybe 3 - 4 hours...but I was slow and meticulous....  I THINK...  LOL
  4. NOW it gets complicated or perhaps SUBJECTIVE.  I already had the Blue Ox TruCenter steering stabilizer.  I and others like that one as it has a solenoid controlled "trim" or centering button.  I had it installed for maybe $500 plus I did the wiring (simple....no major tools) and the shop did the mechanical and just plugged it in.  I FULLY think it is necessary, as you "age" as it reduces the driver fatigue.  The Watts will also do that, but the Stabilizer takes the "touchiness" out of the steering.  The Watts amplifies or greatly increases the leverage or impact of a stabilizer.  I am of the school and many are....some not, that you MUST have a trim (electric Solenoid) to tweak the stabilizer....and the ones that don't are not as effective.  Hendersons in Oregon....one of the TOP shops actually sells kits to add Trim to one brand....and there are rave reviews...
  5. Personally, I chose NOT to do the rear braces.  I had already added a Source Engineering Sway Bar front and rear. I had their properly tuned shocks.  NOW shocks really don't have that much impact...but if you have the OEM Monroes, they are trash....so most folks that invest this much to upgrade will already have or will go to the Koni or the Source Bilstein.  However, there are a LOT of experts that really like the softer ride of the Monroes (NEW....NOT THE WORN OUT ONES) and they will swap the shocks every few years...  just a matter of taste.

That's my summary...  Thats my experience. I added the Watts last and did all the previous upgrades incrementally.  I probably would not have needed the Sway bars, but they were a drastic improvement.  My goal was two purpose....improved RIDE (not porposing) and CONTROL.  Folks laugh...but my wife got headaches trying to read, maybe after the Monroes went south....she could not read much while riding before...but it got worse.  30 minutes....WHERE is the Tylenol.  I had the TruCenter on the first year.  I upgraded to the Source Shocks and also the sway bars....and swapped for Bridgestone tires over the OEM Goodyear. I spent a bundle.  DW said....Take me for a ride....I want to "Feel" that improvement.  We did an hours run over many roads and interstates.  She was in AWE.  This is great...it feels more like a heavy duty ($2 Million) tour bus that we had when we were taking the nice tours....

OK....then a few months later, we made a long trip...we did on 60 day or so one every year. When we left Raleigh, we spent the night in Asheville and then in Nashville for the second stop.  About an hour of Nashville, she put down her book.  She had read at least 4 hours a day.  I casually said....how was the book.  It was great was the response.  I then said....do you realize how much you have read in the past two days...  OMG.  I can READ while riding.  YES, my loving husband...you are a genius (or words to that effect).  So, the proof of the upgrades and what you want to accomplish is subjective.  After I added the Watts, It was night and day difference in my driving and control.  BUT, I also was more aggressive in ramps and curves and such....she DID comment that the MH felt more stable than our Yukon...but to be less "pushy".  I never had any real "tail wagging" issues after I put on the heavier shocks and the Source Sway bar.

SO, I opted NOT to do the Cross Braces... BUT, my Driver Fatigue is way lower and as I age, I can still do long stints....so from that standpoint...it was well worth it.

Hope this helps... 

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Short version:

My Sheppard steering box has very little play (very unusual), so on Van W’s @vanwill52advice I skipped the TRW conversion for *my* coach.  Your mileage can (and will) vary. The good thing about a Sheppard steering box is that of its tight, it will likely never wear out in the life of a motorhome. The bad thing is that if it has a lot of play, there’s nothing to be done to fix it; you have to change it out for a TRW  

I did the Monaco Watts link from Mike Hughes @McHughes (https://monacowatts.com/) and rear cross bars at the same time. 

That’s really all I’ve done and my coach drives great!

Note: I *did* replace the oscillation dampers (shocks), but that had nothing to do with the steering / wandering. My coach would bounce like a trampoline after hitting bumps (bridge transitions, in particular). The new shocks did improve the bouncing a bit.  Slowing down and not being in a hurry all the time improved it a lot more. 🤪🤣

PS - For the record, Van’s advice on the order of suspension improvements to correct wandering are (based on my notes from the 2018 Gathering):

  1. Steering box
  2. Cross braces
  3. Watts link
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5 minutes ago, Scotty Hutto said:

Short version:

My Sheppard steering box has very little play (very unusual), so on Van W’s @vanwill52advice I skipped the TRW conversion for *my* coach.  Your mileage can (and will) vary. The good thing about a Sheppard steering box is that of its tight, it will likely never wear out in the life of a motorhome. The bad thing is that if it has a lot of play, there’s nothing to be done to fix it; you have to change it out for a TRW  

I did the Monaco Watts link from Mike Hughes @McHughes (https://monacowatts.com/) and rear cross bars at the same time. 

That’s really all I’ve done and my coach drives great!

Note: I *did* replace the oscillation dampers (shocks), but that had nothing to do with the steering / wandering. My coach would bounce like a trampoline after hitting bumps (bridge transitions, in particular). The new shocks did improve the bouncing a bit.  Slowing down and not being in a hurry all the time improved it a lot more. 🤪🤣

I totally agree with Scotty....except for one detail.  Whether Shepherd or TRW, many have complained that the Monaco Power Steering was overpowered.  I have read about every post here since April, 2009.  As I reflect back....I see some "different interpretations" now.

We have ALWAYS, prior to Van and Dave and others....and then Mike Hughes' Watts Link....had complaints about wandering.  Being the chassis novice, I just read and did what the experts said. I never noticed a wander (new Camelot with TRW), but being a novice, I had the tendency to correct.  The consensus was that you drove two handed.  One hand steered (on top) and the other was lower and sort of "dampened" the steering wheel.  Took a few trip and concentration to learn that...but it helped.  David Pratt recommended the Blue Ox TruCenter and I did it.  THAT DID IMPROVE the wandering....as well as the need for the push/pull method of steering.

SO, in retrospect...I now "wonder" if folks were commenting on a worn Shepherd or a mal adjusted TRW.  All I know is that the touchiness or my having to compensate or use the push-pull method went away after the TruCenter.  BUT, when I put on the Watts.  It was absolutely night and day and that is what David reported when he did his Exec....and I talked to him and then added the Watts...

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I suffered the wandering on my 1993 Monaco Dynasty.  After a three-hour drive, I was worn out.  My first attempts at solving the problem involved only front and rear X-bars...that were only 1/2" diameter, front and rear.  The coach went from a "road-wild" beast to a two-finger driver, in spite of passing tractor-trailers.  1993 was the last year (for Dynasty) that X-bars could be installed on the FRONT.  All subsequent years placed the generator in a position that precluded X-bars...hence the idea of a front Watts link.

I am very thankful to the folks who purchased my "prototype" Watts links and helped me solve that ubiquitous problem.  I sold them at (less) than my cost of making them, and never imagined making them a commercial product.  Thank you, Mike Hughes, for taking over this project and doing so well at adapting it to more coaches than I imagined.  I hope you have made at least a modest profit off this low-volume, low-demand product.

Not everything one does has to have a profit motive.

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Ben,

 

I bought my coach new and replaced my Monroe shocks after 13 months/14,000 miles with the Koni FSD's. After which coming off rolling curbs or going through a parking lot full of potholes became a non issue , and an improved ride, to boot.

Fast forward to 2016 and found my shock rebound wasn’t to my liking, with 66,000 miles on the coach. And, believing an article in Motorhome Magazine, I decided to save some money and put on the Bilsteins. Well, after 4,000 miles, I took them off, gave them away and put FSD back on. Talk about saving money. Hmmm!

The one thing about the FSD's is that for the first few miles, I can feel every crack in the road. After those first few miles, the shock oil warms up and the ride becomes great. The Koni FSD's are far better than the Monroe’s and even better than the Bilsteins. But I am sensitive to NVH!

Now you know how I feel about the Koni FSD's.

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44 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Yeah, I installed Bilsteins all around, and after reading your comparison, would like to switch the front's out to Koni's.

Shocks and opinions are sometimes like mattresses.  Once you get into a price range….your body rules….assuming all things equal. 

When i reshocked in 2012, the decision was Koni (lots of trusted folks love then) vs Stock Bilstein (THEN half the price of the Konis vs Source Engineering Bisteins….about 25% MORE than Koni.  I ended up talked to a Bistein shock rep, “Charley”.  I hadI called two of the major Bilstein distributors (they said. CALL to verify PN).  Actually some pretty savvy folks.

Both told me they would get hold of their Distributor “guru” for MH shocks.  I asked who that was and it as “Charley” (not the name, but the same guy they trusted and was the guy that had the REAL chart).  The real chart was his notes.

OK….i chased him down.  He spent at least 30 minutes with me.  He was the Bilstein rep that worked with Source on developing their Source Bilstein,  He told me about how meticulous Scott Zimmer was and how the test drivers and rigs and such were all chosen specifically and that the cross checking and comparisons of the shocks on different rigs was first class.  I then confided that I had had several conversations with Scott.

His comment….the stock Bilstein might work on a Non Roadmaster ….but there was only ONE shock for the Monaco’s….the Source Bilstein….i think his son had a Monaco and was running them.  They are proprietary and specially valved and Bisltein can not make them for anyone else.  

I’m His comments….which reinforced what Scott had told me was the decision maker. Scott told me that their original goal was a price point with the Koni, but they missed.  However, the Source Shock has a full VEHICLE LIFETIME WARRANTY.  Koni is for the original purchaser.  The regular Bilstein warranty back then was lifetime….but you had to pull and ship.  Koni would sell you a shock and then if it was defective, credit your account.  Source just ships you a new one….and you send the old back in.  I had one that leaked….but it was probably due to a loosening situation in the mount that vibrated the heck out of it.

Folks have recently posted that the Source Standard Bilstein (they have a bigger one….don’t need it) is now price competitive with the Koni.  

Read my previous post about how the Source Shocks, which are designed to have no more than 3 oscillations over a bump or dip improved my Camelot ride.  When your wife can now read for hours daily and could not get more than 30 minutes without a headache before…..that is proof….

 

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