Air Conditioning replacements help request

[a4epilot]

Going to be replacing my operating a/c's even though they are ok as I don't want to get stuck when one fails when it's hot. They are Penguin units, 15,000 BTU in living room and 13,500 in bedroom.

Windsor 06 that I've lived in full-time so I'm thinking they are approaching their useful life.

When the outside temps get into the 90's they can't keep up so considering replacing the bedroom unit with a 15,000. It should install in the same space without any modifications and the amperage increase is very small so circuit overload should not be a problem.

Also, considering going with the Blizzard NXT units instead of Penguins as they produce about 50 CFM's more. Waiting to hear back from Dometic to know if the physical install will require modifications or not. Blizzards are a few inches taller but that should not be a problem for me.

Dometic did tell me to stick with the 5 button CCC as they indicated it is a better unit then the CCC II. Can use the same wiring, just need to replace the circuit boards with different ones that will operate with the 5 button. They did tell me the additional board will work with both the new Penguins and Blizzards. From watching YouTube, looks like about a 20 minute change over. Replacement board cost around $135.

I've heard that I will need to use an additional mounting gasket, making it 2 per unit, to lift it high enough to allow clearance for the condensation drain trays?

Anyone have anything to offer on my project?

Thanks!

 

Gary K  06 Windsor

 

[Bob Nodine]

15 hours ago, a4epilot said:

Going to be replacing my operating a/c's even though they are ok as I don't want to get stuck when one fails when it's hot. They are Penguin units, 15,000 BTU in living room and 13,500 in bedroom.

Windsor 06 that I've lived in full-time so I'm thinking they are approaching their useful life.

When the outside temps get into the 90's they can't keep up so considering replacing the bedroom unit with a 15,000. It should install in the same space without any modifications and the amperage increase is very small so circuit overload should not be a problem.

Also, considering going with the Blizzard NXT units instead of Penguins as they produce about 50 CFM's more. Waiting to hear back from Dometic to know if the physical install will require modifications or not. Blizzards are a few inches taller but that should not be a problem for me.

Dometic did tell me to stick with the 5 button CCC as they indicated it is a better unit then the CCC II. Can use the same wiring, just need to replace the circuit boards with different ones that will operate with the 5 button. They did tell me the additional board will work with both the new Penguins and Blizzards. From watching YouTube, looks like about a 20 minute change over. Replacement board cost around $135.

I've heard that I will need to use an additional mounting gasket, making it 2 per unit, to lift it high enough to allow clearance for the condensation drain trays?

Anyone have anything to offer on my project?

Thanks!

 

Gary K  06 Windsor

 

I don't know who you were talking to at Dometic but I strongly disagree. We changed out both our Penguin units 5 years ago for the Penguin High Output ones and replaced the old 5 button thermostat with the newer 10 button one. We have not had any problems with the units or the thermostat and I love that new thermostat. I certainly would not want to butcher my new units by taking out the new control boards and replace them with the old boards just so you can keep that old thermostat. The only reason to do that would be if you kept one of the old Penguin units and replaced one with a new unit. I still think that is a kluge and that is why we replaced both units at the same time even though the one in the bedroom was still working. The new units are much quieter than the old ones and with the new 10 button thermostat they have three fan speeds. I don't think you get that with the old control boards and the old 5 button thermostat. I still can't believe someone at Dometic fed you that solution. Just not a good plan in my opinion. 

I think the Blizzard NXT is a good choice and will be quieter than the Penguin. I wanted to do that but the wife did not agree with the look of the taller Blizzard. Just an appearance decision. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Bob Nodine

[georgecederholm]

Quote

I've heard that I will need to use an additional mounting gasket, making it 2 per unit, to lift it high enough to allow clearance for the condensation drain trays?

If you buy the drain kit (I got them on Amazon), it will include the extra gasket, new drain pans, and the linking hoses. I got good advice here years ago to replace the drain pans as they become brittle over time. I believe if I recall the instructions properly, that the drain kits works with both Penguin and Blizzard models from Dometic.

George C, 2005 Exec

[a4epilot]

Thanks, George C! Good information. Will save me a lot of time not having to look all over to find those items.

Thanks also to Bob Nodine for you comments. When you changed to the CCC II, did you have to run all new control wire? If so, how about a few words on how you did it? Not easy, I'm thinking.

Gary K

[georgecederholm]

40 minutes ago, a4epilot said:

Thanks, George C! Good information. Will save me a lot of time not having to look all over to find those items.

Thanks also to Bob Nodine for you comments. When you changed to the CCC II, did you have to run all new control wire? If so, how about a few words on how you did it? Not easy, I'm thinking.

Gary K

Gary,

Not Bob, but I did have issues with one data cable, actually with most of them but it was generally loose or dirty connections in the RJ-11 couplers that Monaco used to connect the data cables to the pigtails that Dometic supplies.  I think it’s important to note that changing the data cables is not a required part of upgrading the room units and/or thermostats, unless there is an issue.

I had a couple of situations where the thermostat wouldn’t recognize the roof units but most of that resolved with cleaning of the terminals and replacement of the old couplers. One of them worked fine until I tucked all the wiring back up to close the ceiling panels; I jostled the coupler. I went back over everything and used a few zip ties to try to keep everything tight.

I did have one cable that just would seem to stay connected, so I picked up a Dometic data cable (again, Amazon) and used it successfully. Once I had it in hand, I realized I could use it to change the zone system in our 3-unit setup. Originally, the front thermostat was the forward roof unit and the bedroom one controlled the center and rear, even though the front thermostat was much closer to the center roof unit. I snaked the data cable through the foam duct from the center roof unit to the front one (there are two data pigtails per roof unit, one to the thermostat and the other to daisy-chain units together). Now my front thermostat controls the front and center roof units and the bedroom thermostat controls the rear. 

What I did was pretty easy. I’m very glad that I didn’t have to replace a data cable to either thermostat, as that would likely involve dropping the padded ceiling panels, a project I wasn’t even contemplating when I started.

To finish our installation up, I also got a new remote temperature sensor (yeah, Amazon) for the front roof unit. I mounted it to the angled side of the cabinet over the passenger’s seat, away from the exterior wall and the windshield area where the original remote was. That required running the cable through the duct and then through the roof insulation in short hops to get inside the cabinet. Tricky, but definitely easier than having to run a new data cable to a thermostat.

George C, 2005 Exec
 

[a4epilot]

Thanks again, George C!

Great info; appreciate you taking the time to pass on your experience. 

Knowing this, no reason to back fit a new a/c with a board to accomodate my existing 5 button. I'll go with the CCC II as suggested by Bob N.

Gary K

Here's another A/C question:

My front unit is 15,000 BTU and rear is 13,500. 

When outside temps get into the 90's, they can't keep up so thinking about going with 15,000 in the bedroom.  Both are using the same ducting so some of the increase in cooling will get from the rear to front.

Amperage load will go up but only slightly and should not be a problem.

Anyone see a problem with this?

Gary K

 

 

[Bob Nodine]

14 hours ago, a4epilot said:

Thanks, George C! Good information. Will save me a lot of time not having to look all over to find those items.

Thanks also to Bob Nodine for you comments. When you changed to the CCC II, did you have to run all new control wire? If so, how about a few words on how you did it? Not easy, I'm thinking.

Gary K

Gary,

No we just used the old data cables. The main problem installing the new thermostat is if you want to flush mount it you have to drill a large hole 1.5 inches. I changed to location of our thermostat to bring it down to eye level and provide a place to drill that hole.

[Dr4Film]

The data cable is the same for both the old AC units and the new ones. I used a Data Cable Tester to test the integrity of the four wires prior to installing them into the connectors just in case I had to redo one or more of the plastic connector ends. I did have to redo one of them which was at the CCC-II Control.

I purchased the same size units for both the front and back no difference.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Dr4Film

[cbtman2]

I replaced my front and rear units with the 15,000 btu models a few years ago and have never had an issue with power draw. Used the existing cable and upgraded with the 10 button controller. I also recently installed the Wacko A/C Silencer on each unit which substantially lowered the sound level and helped to increase the airflow through the ductwork. 

Bob K. 06 Monaco Knight 

[hitechpete]

Hi, why not have your A/C units re gassed, that will return them to near factory performance without going to additional unnecessary expense.  We have two of the latest Penguin 2 units on our 2019 CC Champagne 38EFK. One unit has a heat pump, the front one doesn’t. Shortly after purchase in 2019 (within a month), the front one failed, leaking it’s refrigerant. This was due to a manufacturing fault; a “P” clip was omitted from a pipe, which then vibrated and broke. My dealer informed me that this was a widespread problem and that he had changed every unit that was not Heat Pump equipped.

[Dr4Film]

3 minutes ago, hitechpete said:

Hi, why not have your A/C units re gassed, that will return them to near factory performance without going to additional unnecessary expense.

History has proven otherwise. Waste of time and money re-gassing old RV rooftop AC units versus using that same money towards new units.

JMHO

[wek1958]

I would advise against using Dometic Brisk Air units.    I have had 5 Brisk Air failures on my 2004 Windsor within a period of 3 years.  Fortunately, 4 failures were  under warranty.    I sold the coach and the new owner just told me that the front Brisk Air had failed .  It was installed 9 months ago.     These were 15,000 btu units cool only (no heat pump).    A local Dometic retailer said they were replacing lots of defective Brisk Air's  due to a manufacturing defect in  refrigerant tubing material.    I've not seen any reports from Dometic on the problem and what, if anything, they have done to correct it.   

I just replaced an old analog Dometic thermostat in my 1995 Windsor with a 10 button CCC II.   The rooftop unit is an original Penquin.  It required a different control board to be compatible with the new t-stat.  I had to install adapter cables on each end of the existing control cable and add a freeze stat.   The new CCC II works great.     I know I am taking a risk investing in a  new thermostat for a 25 year old Penquin because when it expires,  my replacement will not be Dometic.  

Bill K,   95 Windsor

[a4epilot]

Bob K, excellent information! Thanks.

Checked out the Wacko Silencer. Perfect, just what I've been looking for as my present noise level is really irritating! Bet I'll get no arguments there. 😂

You also answered the the question about 15,000 BTU in bedroom. Did you notice any improvement in cooling in either the front or rear of the coach? Was it worth it?

Hitechpete, thanks for your thoughts on re-gassing. I'm not a proponent of repairing old equipment (14 years) so will go with new for reliability, efficiency and noise level, but, thanks again.

 

[Scotty Hutto]

I had have the Wacko Products A/C silencers for about eighteen months. 

It is a fairly simple install (maybe 10 minutes) and has made an appreciable difference in the noise. 

I tested noise level before and after with dB Sound Meter app, and it went from 90 dB to 84 dB (both taken @ 12" from air intake.) VERY noticeable difference in noise level to both my wife and I. She can now hear the TV without it being on full volume when the A/C is running, and it looks a heck of a lot nicer than my 12 year old, warped, yellowed original cover. 

I haven't noticed any performance impact in either AC or heat pump mode. 

“Happy wife, happy life...”

[cbtman2]

a4epilot 

Yes the cooling was an improvement. We spent an entire summer in hot and humid  central Florida and were happy with the performance. Well worth it. The units both have heat pumps which helped out during the cool mountain mornings at 8,800 feet last summer in Colorado. 

Bob K. 06 Monaco Knight 

[Scotty Hutto]

On 4/2/2020 at 9:26 AM, Dr4Film said:

History has proven otherwise. Waste of time and money re-gassing old RV rooftop AC units versus using that same money towards new units.

JMHO

Agree.  Most rooftop units designed for RB use don't even have charging ports; they aren't designed to be recharged.  This means the tech has to cut the refrigerant lines and solder in both low pressure and high pressure ports, creating additional potential leak points.  Then find the original leaks and fix them, vacuum the lines, replace the filter drier, and add a new measured refrigerant charge.  IF you removed the unit from the RV and this work was done in a shop, it might be done well. Then you still have an old unit.

 In my  opinion, better you spend the money to replace it with a newer, more efficient, quieter unit. 

...or wait until @Hotrod and I finish designing our variable speed compressor RV heat pump and get it in production.  (🤣 You might not want to wait that long!)

[bborc2005]

Do go with the newer t-stat,I replaced  my old penguins 13.5 units 4 years ago and the new ones do a much better job of cooling, the newer t-stat is much better than the old 5 button unit. Compareing the old penguins with the newer ones I would say the cooling and heat pump work much better I have a 40ft knight and stay in KY most of the summer and they do a good job cooling

[ken.knutson100]

20 hours ago, Scotty Hutto said:

I had have the Wacko Products A/C silencers for about eighteen months. 

It is a fairly simple install (maybe 10 minutes) and has made an appreciable difference in the noise. 

I tested noise level before and after with dB Sound Meter app, and it went from 90 dB to 84 dB (both taken @ 12" from air intake.) VERY noticeable difference in noise level to both my wife and I. She can now hear the TV without it being on full volume when the A/C is running, and it looks a heck of a lot nicer than my 12 year old, warped, yellowed original cover. 

I haven't noticed any performance impact in either AC or heat pump mode. 

“Happy wife, happy life...”

We have a 45’ 2009 Dynasty with the Ornamental ceiling Fixtures that sit in front of the AC units. I don’t think there would be space for the silencer to fit on them? We have the ac Air coming out of the duct work also not the AC unit itself  

[engine103]

Similar thoughts also. Having a Signature with the drop down decorative panel, would a silencer work in the space available?

[Bob Nodine]

37 minutes ago, engine103 said:

Similar thoughts also. Having a Signature with the drop down decorative panel, would a silencer work in the space available?

I doubt you would benefit from the Wacko because the ceiling in your coach is designed to muffle the sound of the air conditioner. I on the other hand live much lower on the food chain and have a simple coach. We do not have the Wacko's installed but made our own sound mufflers about 5 years ago just after we installed the new Penguin units. They significantly reduced the sound level, especially if you are forward of the air intake. One of the largest contributors to the nosy from these units is the "Quick Cool" feature that can be opened to dump the air straight back into the room without it traveling thru the duct work. We completely blocked that off as we never used it anyway. We also have never been a fan of the flimsy foam air filters that must be washed and reinstalled. When we designed our sound reducers we also included a replaceable air filter that we just throw away when they get dirty. 

[engine103]

Thanks Bob and thanks for the pictures. My original foam filters had turned to dust, literately and I'm now using replaceable filters.

[Scotty Hutto]

Bob, those are awesome!  If my woodworking skills were better I’d try to make those! (I still may.  )

[cbtman2]

Scotty,

Here's another woodworking project you can do at the same time, replacing the flourescent overhead lighting with dimmable LEDs that are remote controlled.  Since we all seem to have time on our hands...

Bob K. 06 Monaco Knight 

[a4epilot]

A HUGE thank you to those who took the time to respond to my many questions regarding air conditioners! 👋

There is no way, other than through the help of this forum, that I ever could have learned so much and been able to be confident that I am making the correct decisions for my installation.

Here is what I decided to do. 

1) Replace both 2006 Penguins (1, 15,000 BTU &  the other 13,500) with 2, 15,000 BTU Penguin II's. 

2) Replace the drain trays and add the extra gasket needed to obtain clearance.

3)  CCC II thermostat.

4) WackO Products DA100 Dometic RV A/C Silencer Kits

Thanks again to all of you willing to share your experiences and knowledge on this subject!

Always sends shivers up my spine to think where we'd all be without each other. Undoubtedly, there would be many coaches parked permanently.

Gary K

[Dr4Film]

To add on to Bob Nodine's post in regards to custom AC mufflers, I had two made for me back in 2015 and had done a write-up with photos on the old Monacoers Yahoo site. I have resurrected it for this post below.

I made up a conceptual hand drawing of what I wanted for my AC mufflers. PDF diagram below. I then purchased the red oak lumber from Home Depot and contacted a local finish carpenter to construct the wood frames per my drawing.  I also had left-over marine vinyl material from having my captains chairs recovered to use on the covers. I purchased the sound deadening foam from an online vendor. I chose to have the direction of the opening facing to the side of the coach versus either front or back. Below are a few before and after photos. The dB reduction was significant and have been VERY pleased with the improvement.

Air Conditioning Muffler Frame.pdf