Denso starter for DD Series 60

[willbo777]

Have any of you with a DD installed a Denso starter?  I have found 2 different part numbers that they list for a Detroit, and have contacted them for more info but haven't received anything yet.  Even the DD service center hasn't been able to come up with anything.  Any help would be appreciated.

[Ivylog]

I do not find any difference in a -4440 or -4430 as either is being used on the same engine

I went through much the same for my ISX, even not putting on a -4440 because of the fewer teeth. Through more research, the teeth on a Denso are off center…must be mounted with the motor down.

I finally put the -4440 on early this year when the Delco would barely turn it over. Hardest part was getting the  bolt behind the starter out with a 18” extension negating a impact getting it out, unlike the others. The Denso would start my ISX with just one of my 3 batteries where the Delco required all 3 plus the boost.

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Edited December 31, 2021 by Ivylog

[willbo777]

Thanks, I wonder if the Detroit is the same?

[Ivylog]

Sorry should have been clearer…Yes, it’s the same for a DD60. And yes, prices are all over the place for it. I went with the $130 one on EBay.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Ivylog

[willbo777]

Yes, you are right I have found anything between $200 all the way up to over $500!

[Ivylog]

SAE Standard specifies the major dimensions and tolerances for all Engine Flywheel Housings and the Mating Transmission Housing Flanges. This includes starters and their mounting bolts… can’t put it on wrong.

[Ron Van Arsdall]

The Denso off-set gear reduction starters will provide faster cranking while drawing less amperage. The prices will be all over the place because there are many Chinese knock offs. A true Nippondenso starter will cost considerably more. My son is the owner of Quality Power in California where they sell high output alternators and starters. They Will be back to work on Monday. Their phone number is (909) 794-1600 and can help answer any questions. 

[Paul J A]

On 12/31/2021 at 6:52 AM, Ivylog said:

I do not find any difference in a -4440 or -4430 as either is being used on the same engine

I went through much the same for my ISX, even not putting on a -4440 because of the fewer teeth. Through more research, the teeth on a Denso are off center…must be mounted with the motor down.

I finally put the -4440 on early this year when the Delco would barely turn it over. Hardest part was getting the  bolt behind the starter out with a 18” extension negating a impact getting it out, unlike the others. The Denso would start my ISX with just one of my 3 batteries where the Delco required all 3 plus the boost.

.

 

Snap On used to make a "starter" box wrench that was some what U shaped, to get at the bolt behind the starter.  AKA Half Moon . 

[Guest Ray Davis]

31 minutes ago, Paul A. said:

Snap On used to make a "starter" box wrench that was some what U shaped, to get at the bolt behind the starter.  AKA Half Moon . 

Back in the day when you could buy one wrench at Sears I have heated and bent wrenches to get at that impossible bolt.  I saw one of those old bent wrenches in my stuff the other day.  I have no idea why I bent it now.  

[georgecederholm]

I picked up one of these 428000-4440 starters for my 2005 Exec with a Detroit Series 60. I had the rig in to Massey's Phoenix for hydraulic pump replacement (the Sauer Danfoss internal Transynd-to-hydraulic leak) and asked them to install it. They swear that they did the mount "motor down" as mentioned above but the starter wouldn't engage. I asked them to take a picture but they had already put the old starter back.

So, does anyone have a picture of one of these mounted properly on a Series 60?

Does anyone know if the motor needs to be rotated relative to the mounting flange to get the proper installation? If so, what position it needs to be in and how that's accomplished? The housing/flange assembly looks to be a single cast piece which wouldn't allow the offset on the gear to be rotated to align with the flywheel distance.

At this point, I'm trying to determine if I got the wrong starter, or if Massey's just didn't understand how to mount it properly. I haven't tried to test it out myself as I'm not sure I can manhandle the original, much larger/heavier, starter off (and back on if needed) without a helper.

Thanks in advance for any advice...

[Yoaks5]

I need to change my starter also. I have a 06 Navigator with DD S60 and wondered if anyone had an update on what starter I need? Did anyone buy one and try it (other than George)?

I did call Quality Power in California mentioned above and they were not able to give me and exact answer on what starter I need. Nothing in their system crossed directly over to what I have on it now (Delco 1990354). He did say that the Denso 428000-5730 (got this number from willbo777's post on IRV2) shows it will fit a S60 but it has 10 teeth and mine has 11. He did say that doesn't mean that it wont work just that he could not be sure of it. 

[Ron Van Arsdall]

According to Quality Power, you gave them a different Delco OE number. Have you now found out that it is the number in your post? Is your original starter a 12V or 24V unit?

[Ivylog]

Mechanic didn’t put a Denso on my ISX because it didn’t have as many teeth as the Delco on it. Turns out the Denso -4440 was the correct one because the teeth are off center… as posted previously.

[willbo777]

I never did put a Denso on my DD, because I couldn't be sure which one was right, and I couldn't find a genuine Denso starter, all I saw were Chinese knockoffs.  When I was in for service at a DD shop I asked about starters and they said Detroit had chosen Mitsubishi geared starters with 3 year, unlimited mileage warranties that definitely fit the Detroit.  When I replace my starter I believe at this point I will go with a Mitsubishi.  I don't have the model number where I am right now, but will try to find it.

Edited March 29, 2022 by willbo777
misstated a point

[Yoaks5]

13 hours ago, Ron Van Arsdall said:

According to Quality Power, you gave them a different Delco OE number. Have you now found out that it is the number in your post? Is your original starter a 12V or 24V unit?

Thanks Ron for checking. I talked to Kevin the first time and had the wrong part number. It's kinda scratched up and hard to read.  So i went and looked again to verify and test voltage. When I called back he was busy and I talked to his partner (didn't write his name down but said he was part owner or partner). Mine is 12 volt and the 1990354 is the correct part number of my existing starter. But he was unable to verify what the Denso cross over part# is. 

 

By the way I found both guys QP very helpful and the price was the same or less than places on line $345 with free shipping. So if I can figure out which one I need I plan to get it from them. Sometimes it's nice to be able to get a live knowledge person on the line. 

[Yoaks5]

12 hours ago, Ivylog said:

Mechanic didn’t put a Denso on my ISX because it didn’t have as many teeth as the Delco on it. Turns out the Denso -4440 was the correct one because the teeth are off center… as posted previously.

Thanks Dick! These details get me every time. Now that you mention it I do remember reading that in your earlier post. This is good to know. 

In your previous post do the pictures posted show the correct mounting position for these starters? I understand the drain has to be mounted on the bottom. Is that the round tube looking thing? Looks like a straw? My understanding is the difference in part numbers 4440 vs 4430 vs 4420 is the mounting flange is rotated. In not sure on the 5730 and how if fits in but Quality Power did say it works with the dd60 just not sure if it has the correct mounting position. 

3 hours ago, willbo777 said:

I never did put a Denso on my DD, because I couldn't be sure which one was right, and I couldn't find a genuine Denso starter, all I saw were Chinese knockoffs.  When I was in for service at a DD shop I asked about starters and they said Detroit had chosen Mitsubishi geared starters with 3 year, unlimited mileage warranties that definitely fit the Detroit.  When I replace my starter I believe at this point I will go with a Mitsubishi.  I don't have the model number where I am right now, but will try to find it.

Thanks Bill! QP mentioned above could get the Denso starters in one day to ship out and the price was good in my opinion. I would like to get the Mitsubishi part number if you find it. No big deal if you don't I can probably get it from my local DD dealer. 

[Ivylog]

Another nice thing about having my rig parked in our house, it takes 30 seconds to get a picture of how it’s mounted on the engine. While you can’t see the short rubber drain on the solenoid, you can see it on the bottom of the white area which us the back of the motor.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Ivylog

[Yoaks5]

Thanks for the pictures. I'll check and see how that compares to the space I have. 

[Yoaks5]

I called my local Detroit Diesel dealer and they were not sure what starter I should use. He recommended I call ACK Enterprises in Des Moines. I did and talked to the owner of the shop and he recommended the Delco Remy 39MT Starter (part # 8200308) Approx. $450. I asked if I could return if it doesn't fit he said yes but you won't have to it will fit. It has a rotatable flange. https://www.delcoremy.com/starters/find-by-model-family/39mt-gear-reduction-starter This site has a ton of info on the starter including videos. It's a planetary gear reduction starter. 

This is the starter I purchased and installed yesterday. Even thought it was $100 more then the denso it was local and I could pick it up and return if it didn't work with no shipping costs to worry about. I also didn't have to worry about what model of the Denso starter I needed for my configuration since this one has the rotatable flange. The starter works great it does spin the motor over much faster and I can start it on just my 2 chassis batteries. Before I was having to use the boost switch to start. 

The hardest part of the install was breaking the original bolts loose. My Milwaukee cordless 1/2" impact would not budge them. I had the coach up on blocks but had to raise the air bags up all the way also to be able to get a long enough breaker on the bolts. Once they were out my 16 year old son and I were able to get it out with no problem. 

Now on to the air leaks.