cbr046 Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 (edited) Crazy? Starting a project in the dead of Winter, that's crazy. I purchased the FASS Fuel Air Separation System TSD08100G (RAM pickup version) because # 1 I have a CAPS fuel system w 110k+ miles and # 2 after I installed a fuel gauge the lift pump is telling me it's about to die (if not already dead). It will be a long slippery slope, but, like a roller coaster, I've crested the top and it's all downhill from here. It'll be fun ride (NOT!) Can anyone tell me what these different lines are for? Engine supply, Engine return (from lift pump), generator supply . . . . does the generator have a return? And of course tank vent. Which is which? EDIT: So you don't have to go digging through this article for line identification . . . . 1 - Return from CAPS pump 2 - Return from generator 3 - Supply to generator 4 - Supply to Lift pump VENT - Vent for main tank I'm selecting the opposite side of the tank bay for the FASS pump as there's a LOT more room (and no slide rod to get in the way). Like others, I like pushing fuel vs sucking fuel. AND I don't have to buy extra wire or extra return line then push each of them through the underbelly of the beast. The kit comes with 16 ft of 1/2" rubber hose (fuel return) and 25 ft of pre-connected wire. These are approximates as I used the diameter of the spools and pi. Everyone likes pi. This is as far as I've gotten as the rains moved in and my hardware wasn't the right length anyway. The top 3/8" mounting bolts go all the way through to the next bay. They need to be 3.75" with the rubber insulator. I'll probably go 4". The bottom 3/8" bolt needs to be 1.75" with insulator (not part of the kit). I'll probably go 2" Tomorrow will be 26F when I wake up with a high of 40F for the day. In Winter if it's warm it's rainy. If it's clear it's COLD. Welcome to Winter in GA! But this is a priority so I guess I'll just have to suck it up . . . . day after tomorrow 😉 Does anyone know how much current the FASS pump draws? Everyone uses a relay but I'm not convinced I need one (yet). It seems the ignition side of the FRB (Front Run Bay) is pretty hefty, and there's a "reserved" fuse slot on the ignition side. Or the lift pump for that matter? I'll use a resistor to fool the ECM for the lift pump, but need to size it. I don't want to use a dummy relay. Would be great if I could locate the wire in FRB vs at the lift pump. And as long as I'm at it . . . . a full blown electrical diagram for 2003 HR Endeavor would be great. I keep "borrowing" diagrams from other coaches and it's sketchy at best. There's one for a 2000 Endeavor in Downloads but it's not big enough (MB) to be much good. - bob Edited May 24, 2022 by cbr046 hose identification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ok-rver Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Just completed a FASS with filter install today. Both of my return lines were the size of your #3. Might be a good guess that the suction with the larger return would be the engine. I could see these line coming out of the frame rails in front of the tank but did not determine which was which. The fuse in the FASS kit is 10 amps. I may be able to measure actual current tomorrow on my TS165 pump. If you have a spare fuse port that you can connect too, a relay is probably not needed. I did not have any spare and it might have been difficult to find the wire in the harness that was connected to that fuse. My boxes have connectors that the wiring harness plugs into. The first FASS tech I talked to recommended the big pump and that was ordered. I call TS a couple of days later and was told for my 350 hp engine, the 100 gpm would have been enough. On my 2004, the fuel line for the engine is a funky yellow translucent plastic tube. My hose shop has no fittings for the hose. are you going to bend this to the other side of the tank to attach to your pump? I looked at the pump only system but did not want to have to change filter screens in the pump every 5k miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 The smaller lines are for the generator. I could not tell which on my larger lines was the feed or return line so I went old school and removed one of the line on the tank, in my case the one on the passenger side and put it in a small tub, and then the line from the primary filter and put some air pressure on it (I hunkered down and blew in it). and the fuel came out of the hose I took loose so I knew this was the feed line and the other was the return. The hose I tool loose was long enough to attach to the FASS pump mounted on the other side. I decided to go with a better quality hose feeding the FASS pump so I went to NAPA and had one made with the correct ends on it. You will still have to deal with a return to tank with the FASS pump. I opted to plumb into the vent hole use a Tee. My kit came with a relay and used the an ignition trigger to start the pump. It came with a 10 amp fuse. I found an open fuse location in the front drivers side electrical bay and used this to trigger the relay. I just used a relay to fool the lift pump. I believe the power for the lift pump comes straight from the ECM so I doubt you'll fine a wire in the front. I just added some extra wire on the wires going to the lift pump and pulled them into the rear passenger side electrical bay and mounted the fooler relay there and labeled it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) jacwjames has it nailed. Believe it or not but under all that dirt the cables have numbers printed on them! I was able to match one of the numbers with the hose on the primary fuel filter (hose marked IC-40/26) . It appears the tank fitting # 4 in photo (hose marked IC-40/26) is the suction line with # 1 as the return from the engine (hose marked 481/482 TC-8) . This makes sense with the suction being in the middle of the tank, and the return being in the front left corner. BTW, my generator lines look a little kinked where they join the North-South conduit line. They kinks haven't stopped flow for 20 years so not sure if I'll loosen up the zip-tie binding them or not. Probably when the generator quits and I've spent 10 hours re-discovering the kink. Maybe identifying the hoses will help someone in a galaxy not far away . . . . - bob Edited January 16, 2022 by cbr046 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ok-rver Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 I agree with jacwjames on the hose functions. Looking closely at mine today, #4 is the 1/2" yellow tubing suction, #1 on my MH is 3/8" gray tubing return from the lift pump. I elected to tap the top of my tank with 1/2" npt and installed a dedicated return from the TS165 pump. My TS165 pump is putting out 18 psi and pulling 6.5 amps. The relay pulls around 0.1 amps. Is your spare fuse in the Monaco box #1 or #2 or in the big fuse box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 1 hour ago, ok-rver said: Is your spare fuse in the Monaco box #1 or #2 or in the big fuse box? Inside the big box, right side - b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 16 minutes ago, cbr046 said: Inside the big box, right side - b Same here, my spare fuse slot was in the big black box. My fuel pressure is ~16psi under normal running, on really hard pulls it may drop to 13psi. Still better then a vacuum with the original configuration. Never checked the amperage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ok-rver Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 currently only have pressure gage in port of pump. working on a sender and gage at dash. Looking thru the wiring diagrams I have, I did find some spares off the ignitions #1 block on cable C404 and later shown as P404 going to a slide controller. I may be able to find these towards the rear of the MH. Today I will be trying to pull a 4 conductor wire up into the dash area from the rear of the coach. Yellow for light to ACR switch I installed a month or so ago. The ACR was a great addition for charging house batteries from engine alternator or engine batteries from inverter/charger when on shore power. Ran small space heater off inverter while on test run yesterday as it was mid 20s around Tulsa. Saw 55 amps going thru the ACR from alternator going to house battery to keep the batteries at 13.4 volts. This cable will also carry the fuel pressure signal later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Powell Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Sorry for the first 4 duplicate pictures... This is what I did on my FASS installation. took the HWH air compressor out from behind the generator and put it behind the FASS filters in a much dryer invionment and much easier access to diagnose and repair...The filters are on a hinge that swings out where you can very easily replace the filters with no mess... Michael Powell 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dl_racing427 Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Michael, I love your solution for relocating the air compressor, and for access to it and the filters. Very simple and elegant design. Do keep an eye on it for cracks from metal fatigue, as I'm not sure your brackets are strong enough to prevent flexing from vibration and road shock. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Michael Powell said: The filters are on a hinge that swings out where you can very easily replace the filters with no mess... That was a LOT of work! But I do love the hinge design. 👍 - bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 20 hours ago, ok-rver said: currently only have pressure gage in port of pump. working on a sender and gage at dash. Looking thru the wiring diagrams I have, I did find some spares off the ignitions #1 block on cable C404 and later shown as P404 going to a slide controller. I may be able to find these towards the rear of the MH. Today I will be trying to pull a 4 conductor wire up into the dash area from the rear of the coach. Yellow for light to ACR switch I installed a month or so ago. The ACR was a great addition for charging house batteries from engine alternator or engine batteries from inverter/charger when on shore power. Ran small space heater off inverter while on test run yesterday as it was mid 20s around Tulsa. Saw 55 amps going thru the ACR from alternator going to house battery to keep the batteries at 13.4 volts. This cable will also carry the fuel pressure signal later on. When I was looking for spare wires I pulled the large black plastic cover off the firewall that exposed the brake pedal and all the air lines, no spare wires but a good place to run extra wires. I had looked everywhere for spare wires and even bought a tracer but couldn't find any back in the engine compartment. I am also in the middle of doing a new floor install. I had to loosen and lift the drivers side console and while doing that I found a couple spare wiring bundles that I hadn't seen before. I think one may have been reserved for a brake controller. Didn't bother to check as I had already run a spare wiring set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 11, 2022 Author Share Posted January 11, 2022 (edited) The saga continues . . . . The TD08100G kit comes with 14 feet of wire from pump connector to inline fuse, and the fuse *HAD* to go somewhere convenient. I punched a hole through the expanded foam barrier in the drivers side front run bay (FRB) and ran the cable to the passenger side fuel tank where the pump would be located. Most of the routing was easy, but there were some tight spots to push through (other than the foam). There was JUST ENOUGH cable from FRB to pump. Perfect! This is how I wired the FRB, locating the FASS relay in the upper right corner of the fuse box. The FASS kit add-a-fuse is an ATM "mini" size and I didn't feel like running to the auto store (or waiting on Amazon) so I jammed it into the ATC sized slot. Slot #32 was unused (Reserved) so . . . And it energizes with the ignition key. The problem I ran into here is locating a good GROUND for the pump. I finally gave up and anchored it to one of the door support brackets. Most of the FRB component mounting screws drive into plastic. The door supports screw into the frame. Not ideal but it will work . . . . for a while. I'm open to suggestions on a better ground location. I chose not to shorten the pump +12V wire by cutting & re-splicing so I looped it back onto the loom with zip-ties. So that's the electrical. Simple, sweet, and the FASS kit harness does the job well without a lot of modification. I spent the rest of the day mounting the pump. That wasn't so easy as the sub-bracket bolts aren't accessible with the bracket in place. I ended up putting together the entire assembly on the ground then lifting it into place to bolt into the frame. That assembly is *HEAVY*! Only thing left is routing the fuel hoses and connecting to the pump. I discovered Tractor Supply has pre-built hydraulic hoses in different lengths, I just need to figure out the right length(s). I'll probably use the kit's blue hose for the tank suction and return lines as there shouldn't be much pressure in the hose but the supply hose to the primary filter will have 15 psi on it. Although they claim they're good to 300 psi I'm not keen on trusting those push-on barbed adapters for that pressure. This am it was 26F, and I have doc appts today, so . . . - bob Edited January 11, 2022 by cbr046 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 In my drivers side front electrical bay I had a bunch of wires routed through a hole in the front with the black foam sprayed around the wires. I was able to pull a ground wire through it and attach it to one of the grounding bars mounted on the front fire wall. I've just recently checked all the ground and the ground bars are easy to access and provide good grounding. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 (edited) Project (almost) complete . . . First, stay away form your local hardware store, no matter how good it is. They have a dizzying array of fittings but ultimately you'll still be missing key pieces. Same for auto parts stores, truck parts stores, etc. Even Tractor Supply looked promising with their wall of fittings and hydraulic hoses, but ultimately no dice. I finally found a hydraulic store that made hoses and had all the fittings needed. They made me this adapter hose to connect the FASS pump to the oem supply hose (formerly suction hose). It was way longer than needed but longer is way better than an inch short. I miss identified the supply hose connector that I thought was a pipe fitting (should have taken a photo with me). Turned out to be a flare fitting. When I went back to correct the fitting instead of cutting the hose and crimping a new connector (and trashing it) they supplied a pipe-to-flare adapter to put on the hose. Don't forget thread sealant, AND DON'T USE TEFLON TAPE! With the adapter hose complete, all sorts of fittings acquired and installed we're almost ready. Pump is in place on passenger side and ready for filters. Note the pipe extension on the FASS output port. This was to allow the 90d pipe-to-flare adapter to spin on. From the kit I used their PL-2003 90d pipe (Dodge RAM specific piece) on the return port. Now on to get the FASS return fuel back to the tank . . . I installed a 'T' connector on the tank vent oriented with the return fuel going straight and the vent off the 'T'. Others say they had no problem with this solution but mine pushes fuel all the way to the top of the bay and drips out the vent hose. The fuel tank is full, so full that even though I'm almost level if I crack the fuel cap I'll dump fuel out the filler. Pressure at the lift pump is 19 psi so I'm sure there's above average flow through that 'T'. Note the supply line going over the top of the frame rail. This is to let gravity do it's thing by keeping an amount of fuel "pre-set" to prime the FASS pump. Same for the loop in the line on the passenger side. So with the 'T' leaking I'll need a more reliable solution. I'm thinking of feeding the FASS return fuel through the generator tank return port and switching the gen return line to the vent 'T', as I'm sure it won't be pushing 100 GPH through the 'T'. Another solution is to have an adapter made for the engine return line and tee it there. Sort of a male-female pipe with a threaded side tap. I'm keeping the lift pump intact (for now) and feel the need to keep the return line from the engine. Sort of like this Glow Shift adapter, which can come in 10AN size, except their side port is 1/8" pipe thread to accommodate their pressure sensor. Maybe I can drill and re-tap the side port . . . . Somebody probably has exactly what I need, I just need to research it. Just not now. Ready for the FASS filters. I spent considerable time looking for cost effective filter alternatives that would fit my cramped space. Vertical height is an issue. Their PF-3001 pre-filter will filter down to 140 um. I thought that was a decimal error but it's true, 140 um! It will probably never need changing. The second filter, their XWS-3002 Extreme Water Separator, filters down to 2um. Wow, that's a LOT of filtering! Makes my two 10um filters (OEM primary and secondary) downstream obsolete. I ordered 3 of the XWS filters and 1 of the pre-filters. The moment of truth has arrived . . . . I followed the priming procedure. Just like they said, crack the XWS filter open, run the FASS pump until the motor changes pitch, then tighten the filter. I could hear fuel pumping through the filters and dumping back into the tank. Woohoo! I pull the motor connector, switch the ignition key off, apply dielectric grease and snap the connector in place. It's difficult to get to the retaining clip and remove so hopefully I won't have to. Ever. I go inside and turn the ignition key on. Nice 17-18 psi at the lift pump. I let it run a while then switch off and back on. NOW the lift pump decides to work as I watch the fuel gauge show 5, 10, 15, 20 psi and keep going. 😮 At 22 psi I switched it off. FASS says don't ever let pressure reach 30 psi. I guess it's time to disconnect the lift pump, which I did. I crank up the motor. Even though I let the FASS pump run for several minutes it didn't fire right away like others did. There was considerable air in the hose from fuel dumped on the ground (and me) during the install process. After a minute or two the engine kinda burped a bit, probably from some of that air getting through the CAPS pump. After that clear sailing, but I've yet to leave the dock. Oh, except the MIL maintenance indicator light on the dash. Time to modify the lift pump connector . . . . I scrounged through a small pile of resistors that have been following me since 1975 (literally!). I found a nice 560 ohm 2W resistor but don't think it will flow enough current (20 ma) to fool the ECM. Then I found a 330 ohm and a 390 ohm 1/2 W resistor. In parallel they'll flow 60+ma, stay within their power limits and maybe fool the ECM. It's 11am and 41F. This might not happen today although I may have to suck it up and get out there. Tomorrow is ice followed by snow . . . in Georgia! Oh joy. Sorry about the poor photos but my phone camera lens took a hit through all this crawling around. I'm stuck for now taking close up photos with the landscape lens on a 2 lens camera phone. Phone store wants $65 to replace the glass lens cover. Amazon wants $8 for the piece and I do it myself. Oh, and these are low resolution photos to conserve monacoer storage space. No test drives yet but other than dripping diesel fuel down the road I don't anticipate any issues. If anyone else considers a FASS pump install I hope this helps. I did a lot of uncertain, and uncomfortable (both physical and mental), things that others had documented before me and helped but not in the way I thought best, like pushing fuel from the tank vs sucking it near the engine, minimizing extra wiring, no dummy relay to fool the ECM, etc. - bob Edited January 15, 2022 by cbr046 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 This is how I did my return line using the tank vent. Return line on top pointed straight down. Seems to work, haven't had a problem ~10K miles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 15, 2022 Author Share Posted January 15, 2022 18 minutes ago, jacwjames said: This is how I did my return line using the tank vent. Return line on top pointed straight down. Seems to work, haven't had a problem ~10K miles! And using the Dodge Ram piece that came in the kit! Love it! - c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted January 15, 2022 Share Posted January 15, 2022 The piece that came in the kit was way too small compared to my fuel tank fill and would have required cutting off the fuel fill neck. Didn't want to do that and saw another post on IRV2 that did this. Didn't invent the wheel, just copied it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 16, 2022 Author Share Posted January 16, 2022 Here's a nifty little item . . . . Knowing that when the 2 um XWS filter is slam full, stopped flowing *AND* it will happen on a rainy shoulder during the night, the last thing I want to do is get on my hands & knees looking for the 2 screws under the fuel panel so I can raise it up and change the filter. So I made this latch to bolt on the top of the bottom rail. The "pin" goes through the bottom rail and through the bracket attached to the fuel panel. The metal bracket was from a slide-bolt type latch left over from a previous project (door to DW's greenhouse), the screws are #8 low profile heads (only item from a "new" bulk box), the T nut and bolt are 1/4", wood is harder than normal plywood, but not sure where the scrap piece came from, the two #8 stove bolts came from a bin my dad (gone 13 years now) left behind, and the pièce de résistance was a spring I found in a jar labeled "springs". There were all kinds in there, mostly much stronger clutch springs that wouldn't have worked. This spring may have come from a jukebox carousel assembly (I was the LAST Wurlitzer Factory Service Rep). Everything, except the two #8 screws, came from scrap. This latch has some history for sure. Bottom line it works like a charm. All that's needed is to feel along the bottom for the 1/4" T nut, push it through the hole and the panel can be lifted up for an easy, and quick, filter change. - bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 16, 2022 Author Share Posted January 16, 2022 Here's the 60+ year old resistor installed on the lift pump harness to fool the ECM. 560 ohm, around 20 ma . . . way overrated at 2W Tinned the leads, coated them and connector with dielectric grease, jammed the leads into the connector female pins (they were a tight fit), bent the leads back, wrapped the resistor to the connector, taped and zip-tied in place, zip-tied the harness to another harness and Bob's your uncle. No MIL after 5 min of idling. I think it's odd that Cummins software engineers felt the need to test the lift pump wiring after the engine is started . . . . but what the heck, problem solved. - bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted January 19, 2022 Author Share Posted January 19, 2022 Last trip to the hydraulic hose store . . . . I bought a 1/2" Tee for the return line. The two ends have a male flare on one end, a female flare on the other end and a male flare sticking out the side, all in 1/2". The return line from the lift pump feeds into one end while the FASS return line feeds into the side nipple. This line should have close to 0 psi as it dumps directly into the tank. No more dripping out the vent line, which would have coated the underside, and maybe lower left side, in diesel going down the road. I'll insert a photo of the return plumbing after I fix my phone's camera. Took a 40 mile test drive this afternoon (it had been MONTHS since I'd been able to dump the black tank . . . YEWWW!). After jumping off the dead chassis battery (oops) after the Booster didn't work (troubleshooting later) the engine idled at 18-19 psi and gave 15-16 psi under full load. The pressure sensor is between the lift and CAPS pumps. No leaks and no issues. I'm calling this a successful install. Happy Trails, - bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmw188 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 On 1/6/2022 at 10:35 PM, ok-rver said: Just completed a FASS with filter install today. Both of my return lines were the size of your #3. Might be a good guess that the suction with the larger return would be the engine. I could see these line coming out of the frame rails in front of the tank but did not determine which was which. The fuse in the FASS kit is 10 amps. I may be able to measure actual current tomorrow on my TS165 pump. If you have a spare fuse port that you can connect too, a relay is probably not needed. I did not have any spare and it might have been difficult to find the wire in the harness that was connected to that fuse. My boxes have connectors that the wiring harness plugs into. The first FASS tech I talked to recommended the big pump and that was ordered. I call TS a couple of days later and was told for my 350 hp engine, the 100 gpm would have been enough. On my 2004, the fuel line for the engine is a funky yellow translucent plastic tube. My hose shop has no fittings for the hose. are you going to bend this to the other side of the tank to attach to your pump? I looked at the pump only system but did not want to have to change filter screens in the pump every 5k miles. Funny that’s the exact quandary I’m going thru! I got the same exact responses from FASS themselves. Anytime I spoke to them I would ask about the sizing. I got two answers for the 165 because of why not it’s only $50 more and it will polish more fuel in less time and the other was because of the distance it had to push. They aren’t terribly far from me so today I drove out there for something to do and with hopes of maybe seeing a show room-not! He did take me in back to show me the boxing of the pumps and so I could see one. The one tech, maybe engineer said the 100 would work fine and didn’t seem to change his opinion when I said I had a MH and had to push 40 ft. I know the gph is way more than enough. Anyway leaning toward the 100. Sometimes we all over analyze some of these projects but I’ve been that way all my life🥴 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr046 Posted June 24, 2022 Author Share Posted June 24, 2022 Think about it . . . . pressure is the ability to push, not the pushing itself. We're all getting 15+ psi under full load at the CAPS / HPCR pump. GPH is how much volume is pushed . . . . and 100 GPH is a LOT of fuel, mostly back into the tank. All 165 GPH does is polish fuel faster, about 36 min for a 100 gal tank. I don't see the added value. - bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmw188 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 I know, and at roughly 8.5 gph consumption rate, there’s a lot to spare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now