Exhaust Manifold Leak

[lindsey_27511]

On 1/30/2022 at 8:36 AM, jacwjames said:

If you think taking the radiator out is the lessor of two evils then go for it.   I had pretty good access to mine through the closets and bedroom hatch, never even considered taking out the radiator.  R&R of the radiator stack is a pretty big job and adds another layer of complexity to the job.  It would be my last choice. 

I didn't have any broken bolts (knock on wood).  I think I would of had room to get a drill in there to drill them out if I did.  Would have been a pain but doable. 

Maybe that's why the shops not in too much of a hurry to tackle the job, having to take the radiator out would have added to cost significantly.  If I had the radiator and CAC out I'd take and have them cleaned/checked.  Don't be surprised if the CAC is leaking, mine cost ~$1650 to have it checked and repaired, I didn't think it was leaking.

Three weeks ago Cummins replaced my cracked manifold on an ISL. Did it all without removing the radiator. They did have to remove the turbo. About $700 for parts and roughly 6 hrs labor. 

[Dr4Film]

1 minute ago, lindsey_27511 said:

Three weeks ago Cummins replaced my cracked manifold on an ISL. Did it all without removing the radiator. They did have to remove the turbo. About $700 for parts and roughly 6 hrs labor. 

Don, that's a very reasonable price. What Cummins shop did you use?

[Rob M cKeown]

I have 2 broken bolts and of course, they're the front 2 and hardest to get at. The manifold is not cracked anywhere that I can see. I will get everything cleaned down as good as I can get it then start the disassembly on Wednesday. Thanks again for all the responses, tips and suggestions. Much appreciated!!!!

[jacwjames]

1 hour ago, Dr4Film said:

Don, that's a very reasonable price. What Cummins shop did you use?

X2 on this, reports on IRV2 have prices much higher then this both for parts and labor.  One individual reported the shop he used had a $2500 minimum for an exhaust manifold replacement. 

[Dr4Film]

Rob, was the exhaust leak where the bolts were broken since there were no cracks?

[Rob M cKeown]

Yes, also on another 2 flanges, looks like the gaskets have partially disintegrated

[lindsey_27511]

2 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

Don, that's a very reasonable price. What Cummins shop did you use?

Sorry, that was from memory talking with the svc advisor. I just looked again at the invoice which was for an injector fuel pump AND manifold. 23 hours labor and it’s not itemized. El Paso TX. I’ve never been dissatisfied with prolly eight Cummins locations east to west. 

2 minutes ago, lindsey_27511 said:

Sorry, that was from memory talking with the svc advisor. I just looked again at the invoice which was for an injector fuel pump AND manifold. 23 hours labor and it’s not itemized. El Paso TX. I’ve never been dissatisfied with prolly eight Cummins locations east to west. 

The manifold kit was $777. The fuel injector pump kit was $5,500. 

[Dr4Film]

Injector fuel pumps are expensive if you have a CAPS system. Not sure what a common rail injector would cost plus labor.

Anyway, I have been to the El Paso TX Cummins shop and the service manager was very knowledgeable and helpful when we were there back many years ago.

[vanwill52]

WARNING: THIS IS LIKELY TO BE A LONG POST.  IF IT DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU, SKIP IT.

TwoMed is absolutely correct about making some kind of "Drill Jig" for drilling out the broken studs.  It is virtually impossible to drill out a broken stud and not damage the original threaded hole if you cannot drill EXACTLY in the center of the broken stud and drill it EXACTLY straight.  Even the best mechanics have a really high failure rate with this kind of repair.  In your case, damaging the threaded hole in the head will result in several thousand dollars extra to repair.  Although even a minimally competent machine shop could repair the damaged thread with an insert (DO NOT use Heli-Coil!!) the process of removing the head and having it repaired will be staggering…FAR in excess of the (already expensive) charge for replacing an exhaust manifold.

Most folks do not have the machine shop equipment to do what I’ve done—Make a true drill jig with “Slip-renewable” drill bushings using graduated sizes of insertable drill bushings to allow you to:

1) Have the hole you are about to drill be perfectly aligned with the broken stud 

2) allow your first drill to be a fairly small one that will allow you to drill all the way through the broken stud and let you inject the penetrating oil of your choice FULLY INTO THE CAVITY BEYOND WHERE THE END OF THE BROKEN STUD resides.  Adding penetrating oil at the BOTTOM of the stud will be infinitely more beneficial than any amount of “aimed squirting” you can do from any other location.  I would suggest, if you have the luxury of time, that you insert the penetrating oil and give it a day or two to work. 

Use whatever penetrating oil you prefer, but my experience (and a major engineering university study) proved conclusively that the best “penetrating oil” was a 50/50 mix of Acetone and ATF (automatic transmission fluid).  The ATF by itself has reasonably active penetrating properties.  Adding Acetone, causes the mixture to penetrate much more aggressively into rusted areas.  I keep a Schrader valve equipped pressurized dispenser of this “magic” penetrant in my shop at all times.

As I warned, this will be a long post, rivaling even Tom Cherry. 😊 If your eyes are glazing over, skip to the next topic.

Next, try a LEFT-HAND drill (I have a large assortment) drill of slightly smaller diameter than the OD of the broken stud, using a drill bushing slightly larger than the OD of the broken stud.  At least 75% of the time, this will remove the remaining broken stud in one piece and leave the threads in the cylinder head totally undamaged.

Should the LH drill routine not work, insert the drill bushing that is the root diameter (tap drill diameter) of the broken stud, and using a RH (normal) drill bit, drill all the way through the broken stud.  At that time, there will only be fragments of the original stud left in the hole, and you can work the fragments out carefully with dental picks or similar instruments.

Although all these preparations may seem excessive and involve tedious work, if you are doing this yourself to save money (aren’t we all?) and you turn over your project to a reasonably talented shop whose job it becomes to remove your broken stud, you may find their limitations have presented you with a bill that will take your breath away.  In spite of their best efforts, these Cummins shops are simply not equipped or trained to remove broken studs.

Also, I can offer you some advice about removing those studs that are NOT broken.  Often, the highest coefficient of friction exists NOT between the threads of the stud and the head, but rather between the flanges of the exhaust bolts and the surfaces against which they clamp.  Rust develops, and the friction between the flange of the bolt and the threads of the bolt into the cylinder head exceeds the friction between the threads of the stud and the cylinder head. Spray those areas liberally with penetrant.  Use an impact wrench!  Surprise!  Just set your impact wrench on minimal power and reduce inlet air pressure as needed.  A right-angle impact wrench is best.  Use its lowest setting and first attempt to TIGHTEN THE STUDS...AT LOW POWER.  Then attempt to loosen them with a low power setting on you impact wrench...or by lowering its input PSI.  Go back and forth between tightening and loosening until your stud comes loose.

 I have been a teenage mechanic (rebuilt my first engine—1931 Ford Model A) at 13 years old.  Built innumerable small-block Chevys for my friends until I was old enough to get a driver’s license…even one Z-11 409 in a 1962 Impala.

Looking back on my life since I equipped my home machine shop equipment (partly from my 25-man CNC shop) I’ve been thrilled to use my advantages to help others over and over.  Nowadays, I just “piddle” and make almost insignificant (to me) things that help my friends.

To the OP, if I can help you avoid a catastrophe, I will be glad to do so.  PM me if you desire more information.  A failed attempt at removing a broken stud can absolutely cost you a small fortune.

[dl_racing427]

8 hours ago, vanwill52 said:

WARNING: THIS IS LIKELY TO BE A LONG POST.  IF IT DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU, SKIP IT.

TwoMed is absolutely correct about making some kind of "Drill Jig" for drilling out the broken studs.  It is virtually impossible to drill out a broken stud and not damage the original threaded hole if you cannot drill EXACTLY in the center of the broken stud and drill it EXACTLY straight.  Even the best mechanics have a really high failure rate with this kind of repair.  In your case, damaging the threaded hole in the head will result in several thousand dollars extra to repair.  Although even a minimally competent machine shop could repair the damaged thread with an insert (DO NOT use Heli-Coil!!) the process of removing the head and having it repaired will be staggering…FAR in excess of the (already expensive) charge for replacing an exhaust manifold.

Most folks do not have the machine shop equipment to do what I’ve done—Make a true drill jig with “Slip-renewable” drill bushings using graduated sizes of insertable drill bushings to allow you to:

1) Have the hole you are about to drill be perfectly aligned with the broken stud 

2) allow your first drill to be a fairly small one that will allow you to drill all the way through the broken stud and let you inject the penetrating oil of your choice FULLY INTO THE CAVITY BEYOND WHERE THE END OF THE BROKEN STUD resides.  Adding penetrating oil at the BOTTOM of the stud will be infinitely more beneficial than any amount of “aimed squirting” you can do from any other location.  I would suggest, if you have the luxury of time, that you insert the penetrating oil and give it a day or two to work. 

Use whatever penetrating oil you prefer, but my experience (and a major engineering university study) proved conclusively that the best “penetrating oil” was a 50/50 mix of Acetone and ATF (automatic transmission fluid).  The ATF by itself has reasonably active penetrating properties.  Adding Acetone, causes the mixture to penetrate much more aggressively into rusted areas.  I keep a Schrader valve equipped pressurized dispenser of this “magic” penetrant in my shop at all times.

As I warned, this will be a long post, rivaling even Tom Cherry. 😊 If your eyes are glazing over, skip to the next topic.

Next, try a LEFT-HAND drill (I have a large assortment) drill of slightly smaller diameter than the OD of the broken stud, using a drill bushing slightly larger than the OD of the broken stud.  At least 75% of the time, this will remove the remaining broken stud in one piece and leave the threads in the cylinder head totally undamaged.

Should the LH drill routine not work, insert the drill bushing that is the root diameter (tap drill diameter) of the broken stud, and using a RH (normal) drill bit, drill all the way through the broken stud.  At that time, there will only be fragments of the original stud left in the hole, and you can work the fragments out carefully with dental picks or similar instruments.

Although all these preparations may seem excessive and involve tedious work, if you are doing this yourself to save money (aren’t we all?) and you turn over your project to a reasonably talented shop whose job it becomes to remove your broken stud, you may find their limitations have presented you with a bill that will take your breath away.  In spite of their best efforts, these Cummins shops are simply not equipped or trained to remove broken studs.

Also, I can offer you some advice about removing those studs that are NOT broken.  Often, the highest coefficient of friction exists NOT between the threads of the stud and the head, but rather between the flanges of the exhaust bolts and the surfaces against which they clamp.  Rust develops, and the friction between the flange of the bolt and the threads of the bolt into the cylinder head exceeds the friction between the threads of the stud and the cylinder head. Spray those areas liberally with penetrant.  Use an impact wrench!  Surprise!  Just set your impact wrench on minimal power and reduce inlet air pressure as needed.  A right-angle impact wrench is best.  Use its lowest setting and first attempt to TIGHTEN THE STUDS...AT LOW POWER.  Then attempt to loosen them with a low power setting on you impact wrench...or by lowering its input PSI.  Go back and forth between tightening and loosening until your stud comes loose.

 I have been a teenage mechanic (rebuilt my first engine—1931 Ford Model A) at 13 years old.  Built innumerable small-block Chevys for my friends until I was old enough to get a driver’s license…even one Z-11 409 in a 1962 Impala.

Looking back on my life since I equipped my home machine shop equipment (partly from my 25-man CNC shop) I’ve been thrilled to use my advantages to help others over and over.  Nowadays, I just “piddle” and make almost insignificant (to me) things that help my friends.

To the OP, if I can help you avoid a catastrophe, I will be glad to do so.  PM me if you desire more information.  A failed attempt at removing a broken stud can absolutely cost you a small fortune.

Rob, I second everything Van said, he definitely knows what he's talking about. 🙂
Years ago, I used several of his techniques to replace the manifolds on my old 454 gasser.
PB Blaster and an air impact with the pressure turned down, and lots of patience, got the bolts out that weren't already broken, and drilling through the broken bolts and injecting penetrant behind the bolts, allowed them to eventually be removed with an EZ-Out.
I'm going to try the acetone and ATF next time I encounter a rusty bolt.

It ended up being a several day project, but it saved pulling the heads and paying for machine work.

Good luck, and it sounds like you're on the right track.

[Rob M cKeown]

Thanks again for the advice and suggestions. In a former life I was a machinist/millwright/welder and I am all too familiar with the challenges of broken bolts. I will be very exacting before I attempt to remove the 2 broken ones. I definitely know the price you can pay by not paying attention and taking the time to do it properly the first time and once. The time spent making a jig and setting it up accurately is well worth it. 

[Guest Ray Davis]

What a great post by Van.  Especially the importance of true center, straight drilling, and injecting penetrating oil behind the broken bolt.  🎯

[vanwill52]

David is very correct about using an impact wrench with the air pressure turned way down.  And since the washer-head bolt is often solidly rusted to the surface it contacts, gently using the impact wrench to alternately tighten/loosen the bolt will frequently help.  The bolt threads might be quite free, but the head of the bolt is rusted tightly.  A right-angle impact wrench can be very handy.

One other thing, be sure you use good-quality HSS (High Speed Steel) or Cobalt drills, preferably coated with TiN (titanium nitride) or TiCN (titanium carbo-nitride).  And for absolute certain do not use anything that is not listed as "135* split-point".  These drills require far less pressure to cut, and are largely self-centering--that is, they do not tend to "skid" away from the position they start in and frequently do not require center-punching to locate their starting point.

[jacwjames]

Glad I'm tagging along on this post, lots of good information.   FWIW, anything that Van post I pretty much take to the bank.  He's provided advice to me on several things and it's always greatly appreciated.

Has anyone tried one of the heating tools used to remove seized or broken bolts/studs.   Not sure if there would be concern on over heating a head or not.   Room might also be an issue but I've seen them with ninety degree attachments to get into tight places. 

[Rob M cKeown]

As I mentioned in my 'former life' I have used heat followed by CO2 or Nitrogen to cool it rapidly which helps in breaking a stuck bolt loose

Van, you make some really good points, thanks

[Guest Ray Davis]

I'm not recommending you try this, but I have seen a nut place over a broken bolt and then it is welded down inside the nut to the bolt.

Kind of a shade tree approach but it worked.

[jfbolkovatz]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The best bolt loosen (past discussion) is , acetone and auto trans fluid in a pressurized spray can (Amazon or other). I sued PP Blaster and others on farm equipment and auto, A & ATF is significantly better. My pressure can spray is 5 years in the can and still works great.

Hope this helps.

JoeB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the best bolt loosener

[Rob M cKeown]

Exhaust Manifold update, NOW I HAVE ROOM!!!!! There were so many leaks around the closet it pretty well ruined the carpet so decided to tear it out and rebuild it so there are no leaks. In the process I now have a lot more room, kind of like painting, good prep makes a better job.   

[Jdw12345]

Nice!

[Rob M cKeown]

Thanks

[Dr4Film]

Rob,

I finally had a spare moment to call Action Mobile in Orlando to find out what the deal is over there. As it turns out, the owner, John Douglas, has retired (BUMMER) and one of the staff members took over the business. Plus, the service tech who had the service background in RV's left the company and moved out of state.

I will now have to find another place where I can get engine repairs and service.

The new owner stated that he would be able to change oil, filters and lube the chassis but no generator service. Just the basics on the diesel engine.

I am depressed!

[Rob M cKeown]

No kidding, It's hard to get good and reliable service. 

[cbr046]

I'll rejuvenate this thread vs starting another one . . . . First, you guys are scaring the poopoo out of me!

Just discovered I'm in the leaky exhaust club (2003 ISC).  I've noticed soot around the # 5 area and been in denial for some time.  Thousands and thousands of miles of denial . . . at least. Today I started the engine and felt around before it got warm.  My leak is the manifold gasket at # 5 between the manifold and head where I can feel it puffing out with my fingers.  I see no evidence of cracks.  Like jacjames I have access through the closet and bedroom hatches (HR Endeavor). 

Let me digress first . . . . It took me a half day to drop the lift pump motor only to discover the gasket I had wasn't the right one.  Re-installed the pump and now the leak was much much worse (no surprise).  Just getting it re-installed was a major feat.  Next was spending a full day (actually 2 half-days) wrestling with the fittings for the hard pipe between CAPS and Lift Pump and the fitting on the lift pump inlet hose to install a union and bypass the pump completely (FASS pump pushes all the fuel I need).   I could get a hand up there (or down through the hatch) and one eye on what I'm doing, getting 2 hands in there?  Not a chance.  I was constantly limited by body position, arm length, leverage and many things in the way (like frame rails, cable assemblies, and that pesky intake manifold).  What I needed was a small child or a disjointed orangutan, and I had neither.  Not to mention a limited assortment of tools.  One fitting involved a rubber mallet and pipe on the end of a crescent wrench (amazingly it popped on the first mallet hit).  Another I got loose, but turned out it was the plug in the lift pump that got loose, not the hose fitting.  It couldn't be turned because the hose would jam it up.  I finally rigged a 1" wrench (1.003" nut) I found in my dad's job box from the 1940's/50's to hold the plug then a crescent wrench attached to a tie down so I could use a 3 ft pry bar on the other end against a frame rail.  After MUCH pressure it came loose.  This is my expertise.  Are you cringing yet? 

So it begs the question . . . . can I, with my bumbling skill set and limited tools, change out an exhaust manifold gasket without busting any of the manifold bolts (using the vanwill method)?  If I do bust a bolt, what are the chances of getting a mobile mechanic to fix it?  (or worse, building a jig to center the stud drill)  What are the odds my trusty truck shop can fix it without busting bolts and can they fix the ones they bust without pulling the head?  I mean, it's not like it's their money . . . .

What if I don't replace the gasket?

- bob

[jacwjames]

Welcome to the leaking or cracked exhaust manifold club. 

I was able to get to my lift pump from the bottom to bypass it when I installed the FASS pump.  I left the pump in place and just put a union between the hose connections.  Not saying it was easy but considering I'm +240lbs, 5'6" tall Bull in a China cabinet type guy I would figure anyone could do it. 

If the pump continues to leak you will have to fix it, don't see  many options on this.

I think on your exhaust manifold you could presoak all the bolts you could try and loosen each before proceeding.  If all start to come out you shouldn't have a problem to proceed on the removal and replacement. 

During my career I've seen dozens (maybe hundreds) of engines changed out ( we budgeted one a month in the larger mines) without having a problem with studs breaking.  Not saying it's not a problem but it would be one of the last things I'd worry about.

So if your up for more self inflicted pain from contorting yourself, go for it.

[cbr046]

4 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

I left the pump in place and just put a union between the hose connections.  Not saying it was easy . . . .

Same thing.  And no, IMO it wasn't easy at all.  The final straw was threading a stiff misaligned fuel line onto a union with one hand and no eyes on it . . . . from the bottom, too.

- b