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Exhaust Manifold Leak


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I have done a lot of repairs, upgrades and modifications to my Windsor over the 18+ years of ownership and I am presently doing the same now to my Dynasty.

There are many situations which I will tackle on my own and are usually successful then there are those that I have no desire to even get involved with. So that's when I let my CC do the talking and walking. It's easier on my body plus in some cases they have the knowledge and tools to get the job done quicker, etc.

Many years ago, I would do almost anything and everything but as I aged my body and mind told me it's time to let someone else do the task.

Changing out the lift pump and the exhaust manifold have been done on my Windsor both by expert service technicians at a very reasonable cost. 

 

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On 2/1/2022 at 1:08 PM, Ray Davis said:

I'm not recommending you try this, but I have seen a nut place over a broken bolt and then it is welded down inside the nut to the bolt.

Kind of a shade tree approach but it worked.

I've done something similar before, but on studs that couldn't be removed by douoble nutting.
I don't trust my welding skills enough to try it on a flush broken bolt, I'd probably weld into the head surface. LOL

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I ended up remodeling the closet floor and that provided the access to the manifold once the the air intake system was out. Taking the radiator out would not have helped much so abandoned that idea. I was able to get at 10 of the 12 Manifold bolts and 2 of the Turbo nuts quite easily. I used a 3/8 drive 90 degree impact with swivel impact sockets to get at 8 of them and a strongarm to get at the 2 on #2 cylinder. I turned the air pressure down to 60psi and tightened a little first and then reversed the impact and they came out with no trouble. I had been soaking them daily with a penetrant for a week before I tried to get them out. Not sure the penetrant did that much good as there was no evidence of penetration on any of the bolts. I undid what I could and put them back in. I had bought a new manifold so I was able to make a jig to ensure the drill bit ended up on center and perpendicular to the broken bolts. I drilled and tapped for a 5/8 NF cap screw and drilled 3 sets of cap screws with a 1/8, 3/16, and 1/4 inch hole in the center to match the center distances of the broken bolts on #1 cylinder and slotted the holes that matched up with holes on # 2 cylinder as I did not know how far the manifold section for # 1 cylinder went into the center section of the 3 part manifold. I started to do the work required underneath the coach but found I just couldn't do it as I got dizzy and a bit nauseous laying on my back and in a confined space. I took it to Cummins in Tampa to change the manifold out. Originally I had taken it to Cummins in Orlando to get a service on the Engine, Generator and to replace the manifold. Turned out to be an exercise in futility as their performance was beyond incompetent. They had the coach for a month, did the service on the engine and generator and repaired the engine AC. I tried many times in the space of 3 weeks to get a definitive answer on when they were going to get at replacing the manifold but was told 'when a technician was available' but no time frame. I asked was it going to be a week, 2 weeks, a month or longer? When a technician is available was the response. I came away from there with a strong impression they just did not want to do the job so I got the coach home and started to prepare it to do it myself. When I got it home the AC was not working and both the Oil Filter and one of the Fuel filters was leaking. At the Bill D's gathering in Tampa, Butch, the General Manager of the Tampa branch was there for the Cummins Seminar and I told him about my experience with the Orlando Branch. He told me to give him a call and the Tampa Branch would make it right. I texted him a week or so later and the next day I got a call from Jesse the service manager to set up an appointment. When I took it in I was able to talk to the technician who was going to be doing the job and explain how the jig was to be set up and the procedure to remove the broken bolts. I had also supplied some 1/4" end mills to ensure the drill bit had a flat surface to eliminate any deflection due to uneven surface. He did use the jig and the end mills and said it worked well. At this time the Manifold is changed and expect to get the coach back early next week as there was a delay on a couple of parts for the AC. 

At the end of the day, if I had had a pit or was able to get the coach off the ground I would have done the whole job myself. Taking the time to set yourself up and give yourself good access it is not that complicated a job.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Guess I am joining this club.  While checking the transmission level on the dip stick after I changed transmission fluid and filters, I felt  a stream of air flowing across my arm.  My fear was true, leaking gaskets on chambers 3 and 4.  I could see where the gaskets had broken.

Well this thread has been extremely helpful.  I have a 400 ISL and this YouTube video was also really helpful for me as it was exactly my set up.  Kind of long, but good learning.  

 

I have gotten the manifold out without removing the turbo doing what is in this video.  Sprayed all bolts with PB Blaster for three days first.  I would warm the engine for about 5 minutes first before each application.  And then warming the engine before breaking loose the bolts.  Getting to some of them was definitely a challenge.  Took about 4 hours total after trying all different size ratchets, socket extenders, sock depth, and breaker bars.  No broken bolts and no cracked manifold!

I am somewhat disappointed that for such a beast of an engine with only 73,000 miles, that the gaskets had broken.  See pics below.  Cummins rep said the gasket replacements are new part numbers so it may be an indication of high failure rates of the previous part.

Now waiting on parts, will post back results.  Feeling good that I might be saving around $1,500 using my free labor.

0?ui=2&ik=5f768fc5ad&attid=0.2&permmsgid=msg-a:r-3294143375012324608&th=1801fc05f0d860a1&view=fimg&fur=ip&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ-XzmFG5C6gGwFaQ4wzzHf8QmcEopTlWp96vfwf0OMsDjt7sodtHrL5JOkZk9fgh43OTUm3XlL1eWk4G2BX-zvij2BosLNpxgDD-TEQIBSCjblOxzomRq1mSEQ&disp=emb&realattid=1801fbfe98921692dea1

 

Edited by Bill R
Correction to wording
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I'd throw in a new exhaust manifold with new bolts & spacers.  Just sayin'  I can't imagine doing this twice. 

I have to do mine but afraid I'll get hung up before the next trip.  Haven't ordered parts yet . . .

- bob

 

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14 hours ago, cbr046 said:

I'd throw in a new exhaust manifold with new bolts & spacers.  Just sayin'  I can't imagine doing this twice. 

Bob - great advice, but unfortunately I have a trip coming up that I cannot wait for a new manifold.  It seems that the ISC's have a greater failure with cracked manifolds than the ISL's (mine).  I am not sure why?

Anyway, I will be putting on anti-seize on all bolts and nuts, and if I do have to do this again, what I have learned will probably cut down this repair/install by 2/3's the time.

Since this coach is "new to me" since September of 2021, who knows how long these gaskets have been leaking.  It didn't seem to affect the engine performance.  I fortunately discovered them when in the engine compartment through the inside of the coach.   Anyway, there are quite a few posts about running with blown gaskets with no issues.  I am sure there is a limit based on severity though.

All the best on your change out.

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1 hour ago, Bill R said:

Anyway, I will be putting on anti-seize on all bolts and nuts, . . . . .

I read where putting anti-seize on bolts affects their torque value, that bolts are meant to be torqued while dry for an accurate reading.  Me, OTOH, will be applying anti-seize with the rest of them.  39 ft lbs is a LOT IMO.  Hopefully that applies to the ISC as well.  Don't forget to chase out rust & debris with a tap from the bolt holes. 

 

1 hour ago, Bill R said:

It didn't seem to affect the engine performance. 

I hadn't noticed any change in boost, 20-25 lbs at FT

 

1 hour ago, Bill R said:

Anyway, there are quite a few posts about running with blown gaskets with no issues. 

Good to know!  But it must be a lot of heat being thrown into the engine bay. 

 

1 hour ago, Bill R said:

All the best on your change out.

Thanks.  Not looking forward to it!

- bob

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I guess there is two schools on thought on a situation like this. 

You have a manifold that has not cracked, so you might say it is proven.  So just replacing the gaskets may be good enough.

Installed a new manifold would also be an option but you never know what you get.

Back in 1998 we had the passenger side manifold on our Ford Class C with the 460.  Ford was going through a rash of these as it took over 4 months to fix, there were no new manifolds anywhere to be found.  This was fixed under warranty.

After we got the rig back, within ~4 months the drivers fail, out of warranty I replaced it myself with an after market, which was much beefier. 

Then about 6 months later the passenger side warped, causing an exhaust leak.  I pulled it off and took it to a machine shop and had it trued up flat and reinstalled. 

Ended up selling the RV to my mechanics father who still has it, hasn't had another manifold problem. 

So you just have figure "are you feeling lucky" if you buy a new manifold and/or use the old one back. 

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Well the project is complete, and no leaks.  Which of course would be the expected results.

I would say in summary this job is not difficult, just time consuming and be ready to put your body in contorted positions, and make sure you have various size and lengths of ratchets, sockets and breaker bars.  The videos posted in this thread are also very helpful.  If you use the Cummins QuickServe app you can find all the procedures if that helps.  

On 4/13/2022 at 9:37 AM, cbr046 said:

I read where putting anti-seize on bolts affects their torque value

The Cummins procedure actually outlines to put on anti-seize and then torque to 39 ft-lb.

On 4/13/2022 at 10:09 AM, jacwjames said:

You have a manifold that has not cracked, so you might say it is proven.  So just replacing the gaskets may be good enough.

This is my hope!

image.thumb.jpeg.3ef15e071b865356d70e73c73bf84573.jpeg

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My dilemma . . . exhaust manifold gasket leak.  Question is . . . is it possible to loosen just the bolts for this cylinder (# 4) and, with a little bit of pressure, spread the manifold out a few thousandths to slip a fresh gasket in it's place?

Also, is that a crack on the spacer?  Pretty odd . . .

1459898304_ManifoldGasketLeak.thumb.jpg.65df9cefc402f90fdb9e805401f50248.jpg

I've got a trip Apr 30 and currently recovering from kidney stone surgery.  Last thing I want to do is (when I'm feeling good enough to start wrestling this thing) get stuck and immobilize the coach. 

- bob

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