IOTA 50-R FAILURE - intermittent shore power - SAFETY & FIRE HAZARD

[Dr4Film]

38 minutes ago, Bill R said:

Richard - I am risking showing my lack of knowledge here, but if you install the EMS before the Transfer Switch, are you running both generator and shore power through the EMS? 

Can you use a plug adapter and use the Autoformer on a 30/20 Amp circuit?

The Transfer Switch has two inputs - generator and shore power, and one output that goes to the coach power circuit breaker panel.

Yes, you can use a 30 to 50 amp dog-bone for a 30 amp shore power hookup. Plus a 20 to 30 amp dog-bone to reduce down to 20/15 amp.

[Bill R]

22 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

The Transfer Switch has two inputs - generator and shore power, and one output that goes to the coach power circuit breaker panel.

Thank you Richard, I was thinking your HW50C was before the transfer switch, i.e., input side.  My misreading what you said.  My HW50C is on the output of the transfer switch to breaker panel.  All good.

[Dr4Film]

15 minutes ago, Bill R said:

Thank you Richard, I was thinking your HW50C was before the transfer switch, i.e., input side.  My misreading what you said.  My HW50C is on the output of the transfer switch to breaker panel.  All good.

I think I posted that I installed the EMS-HW-50C "in front of" before the Southwire Transfer Switch which is the preferred location.

The Onan Generator very seldom has had catastrophic failures that would end up damaging the electrical items inside the coach. It also has self-protection modes to prevent any possible catastrophic electrical damage to the coach.

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

I installed my 50C input on the coach end of the incoming power cord.  That way all power coming into the coach from the shore power passes through the 50C first.  That way no bad power enters the coach.

[Martinvz]

That is the same that I did, sliced it into the shore power line before the ATS. I do not have any spare slack on the genny input or house output side. When I install a new ATS it will be a tight fit to get it all to tie in. At least I have some slack between the 50C and the Iota.

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, Bill R said:

Thank you Richard, I was thinking your HW50C was before the transfer switch, i.e., input side.  My misreading what you said.  My HW50C is on the output of the transfer switch to breaker panel.  All good.

Not really.  You run the risk of overloading the neutral.  If your Genny was a 240 VAC, then that would be OK.  Not advisable, but OK.  This comes from the ONLY HW50C Contactor failure that we, or Tommy Fannelli, the owner and founder and tech support advisor for the Progressive products.  He was a field rep for Surge Guard and they did not want to make improvements and he had to fend off angry customers when the failed.

Bottom line.  When you have 240 VAC or 50 Amp service, the neutral is doing a sine wave “flip flop” and it will be carrying the same load as L1 or L2.  The legs are “out of phase”.  When you use a 120 VAC, double pole breaker, like on the 7.5 and 8.0 KW ONANS, the neutral is IN PHASE (if I remember the terminology correctly.  Bottom line the #6 neutral is carrying the COMBINED load of the two pole breaker….which like Line 1A and Line 1B.  
 

The ONLY contactor failure that Tommy ever had was a member that put the ATS where yours is.  The high loads….you can get at least 70 amps, burned it up.  The contactor is rated for 50 continuous with the obvious, spikes.  But feed it a steady diet of 60 or so…which is normal when you load the Genny up and have AC or battery charging or Microwave or such.

That is the gist of it.  Tommy was going to update the instructions…but I think he got involved in the sale.  I was the “liaison” between the member as I was a moderator and Progressive is close by and I discussed this in detail with him.

The upstream of the ATS is to protect the ATS.  As Richard or someone pointed out….the Onan power is absolutely clean. I questioned exactly what you did and Onan went through a whole spiel about double rectifying and cleaning up the power.  Tommy also said that they had come to the same conclusion.

Your MH…just stating what has transpired.

[saflyer]

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Not really.  You run the risk of overloading the neutral.  If your Genny was a 240 VAC, then that would be OK.  Not advisable, but OK.  This comes from the ONLY HW50C Contactor failure that we, or Tommy Fannelli, the owner and founder and tech support advisor for the Progressive products.  He was a field rep for Surge Guard and they did not want to make improvements and he had to fend off angry customers when the failed.

Bottom line.  When you have 240 VAC or 50 Amp service, the neutral is doing a sine wave “flip flop” and it will be carrying the same load as L1 or L2.  The legs are “out of phase”.  When you use a 120 VAC, double pole breaker, like on the 7.5 and 8.0 KW ONANS, the neutral is IN PHASE (if I remember the terminology correctly.  Bottom line the #6 neutral is carrying the COMBINED load of the two pole breaker….which like Line 1A and Line 1B.  
 

The ONLY contactor failure that Tommy ever had was a member that put the ATS where yours is.  The high loads….you can get at least 70 amps, burned it up.  The contactor is rated for 50 continuous with the obvious, spikes.  But feed it a steady diet of 60 or so…which is normal when you load the Genny up and have AC or battery charging or Microwave or such.

That is the gist of it.  Tommy was going to update the instructions…but I think he got involved in the sale.  I was the “liaison” between the member as I was a moderator and Progressive is close by and I discussed this in detail with him.

The upstream of the ATS is to protect the ATS.  As Richard or someone pointed out….the Onan power is absolutely clean. I questioned exactly what you did and Onan went through a whole spiel about double rectifying and cleaning up the power.  Tommy also said that they had come to the same conclusion.

Your MH…just stating what has transpired.

At some point does this become ridiculously complicated for the average consumer?

[96 EVO]

1 hour ago, saflyer said:

At some point does this become ridiculously complicated for the average consumer?

Ahh, NO!

Not unless you decide to make it complicated!

[Grampy OG]

Most folks that I have met purchase the Progressive that hangs off of the shore power pedestal. Clearly that is meant to go inline before your ATS. Although I have an inline Progressive I copied the same theory and placed it before the ATS. I am with Tom I don't think the genny will ever produce a surge that will take out your coach internals. 

My shore power cord actually goes first into a first generation Autoformer that then feeds the Progressive that then goes into a Technology Research ATS that has a built in surge guard of it's own. 

Overkill, maybe, but it all works. 

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

12 hours ago, saflyer said:

At some point does this become ridiculously complicated for the average consumer?

 

10 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Ahh, NO!

Not unless you decide to make it complicated!

The AUTOFORMER discussion was good and informative. The comment about where to install a commonly used HW50C was a "Danger! Well Robinson" based on a known condition.

If the HW50C had been installed properly, per the instructions, then this would not have happened.  I have enclosed the ORIGINAL HW50C instructions.  I know that because Tommy had not moved from the original location.

I also enclosed the "Write Up" he sent me to review as he was going to incorporate that in the "NEW VERSION" of the updated software board. What happened by installing the HW50C on the LINE side and your Generator causing the overload would ALSO HAPPEN if you had a FAKE 50 Amp Service.

That is VERY COMMON. I have found at least 5 instances over the years in the over 250 CG that I stayed in...admittedly a few, very few, were repeats. But I found one in a CITY OWNED one in Florida.

So, to solve the problem, Tommy was making changes so that the HW50C would read 240 VAC and also adding in an Overloaded Neutral.

That Beta board was UNSUPPORED by the new owners....and they finally gave me a replacement one.

I also just read the Progressive Industries NEW INSTALLATION instructions.  I DOUBT that they know of the condition....  They NOW list two installation options BEFORE and AFTER the ATS.  I also read the specs on the current units. They contactor is still a 50 Amp.

Typically, this is NOT an issue and folks don't have to be "Electronic Gee Whizes".

BUT, what is also missing from this discussion is the FAKE 50A units.

Hope that explains it.....I fully understand your comment.  I make it daily as I learn things here that I sort of "knew" and then research. 

EMS-HW50C.pdf HW50C TGC Revised Owners Manual.pdf

[Guest Ray Davis]

I have not studied autoformers but I don't think they truly have a primary and secondary, not completely isolating from the pedestal.  That's not a problem, but I'm not sure it does anything to help or protect the neutral.  As stated many times,  losing the neutral can destroy things especially electronics because they might be hit with 240 volts.

Now, this is where you EEs and other smart guys can help me. 

Could a transformer supply it's own neutral,  with a center tap in the secondary?  Actually,  just a coil or winding with a center tap might provide a neutral.  

What say you?  Will it work?

[Dr4Film]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

 

The AUTOFORMER discussion was good and informative. The comment about where to install a commonly used HW50C was a "Danger! Well Robinson" based on a known condition.

If the HW50C had been installed properly, per the instructions, then this would not have happened.  I have enclosed the ORIGINAL HW50C instructions.  I know that because Tommy had not moved from the original location.

I also enclosed the "Write Up" he sent me to review as he was going to incorporate that in the "NEW VERSION" of the updated software board. What happened by installing the HW50C on the LINE side and your Generator causing the overload would ALSO HAPPEN if you had a FAKE 50 Amp Service.

That is VERY COMMON. I have found at least 5 instances over the years in the over 250 CG that I stayed in...admittedly a few, very few, were repeats. But I found one in a CITY OWNED one in Florida.

So, to solve the problem, Tommy was making changes so that the HW50C would read 240 VAC and also adding in an Overloaded Neutral.

That Beta board was UNSUPPORED by the new owners....and they finally gave me a replacement one.

I also just read the Progressive Industries NEW INSTALLATION instructions.  I DOUBT that they know of the condition....  They NOW list two installation options BEFORE and AFTER the ATS.  I also read the specs on the current units. They contactor is still a 50 Amp.

Typically, this is NOT an issue and folks don't have to be "Electronic Gee Whizes".

BUT, what is also missing from this discussion is the FAKE 50A units.

Hope that explains it.....I fully understand your comment.  I make it daily as I learn things here that I sort of "knew" and then research.

Tom,

I recently purchased and installed a new EMS-HW-50C into my 2006 Dynasty. I don't see any reference to error codes C-11 or C-12 in the documentation. Are you stating that they looked into BUT abandoned the upgrade to incorporate a test for Fake 50-amp pedestals in their new EMS-HW-50C units?

As you know, I build custom Power/Pedestal Testers for RV owners who are electrically challenged or don't want to spend the time and money to build one. Those testers check for correct polarity, open ground or neutral, voltage levels on each Leg #1 & #2, plus tests for Fake 50-amp. They work for any 50-amp and can also check any 30-amp, 20-amp or 15-amp with proper dog-bone or adapters.

These testers are great to test any pedestal BEFORE spending the time to get settled into a site only to find out the pedestal power has a problem. If everything checks out, then the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C will protect the coach by constantly monitoring the power while parked.

Example below.

[Land Lubber]

I recently replaced the Iota transfer switch in the '09 Monaco Camelot we bought 2 years ago. I had read about the fire issues so I had it replaced. The service manager at our local shop questioned me on why I wanted to replace it. I explained to him the issues but apparently he was not up to date on these transfer switches. After inspecting it though he noted some burn spots on the connections. I replaced the Iota with a Surge Guard 41260.

[Bill R]

As a somewhat newer (less than one year) owner of my first Class A, this forum has had discussion threads where in many instances there is a problem and it helps me discover, unbeknownst to me, EXISTING problems with my coach (i.e., Main Cut-off switches, Cooling Fan Wide Open, Leaking Manifold Gaskets, Bay Heater, plus numerous more). 

AND now this thread is the exact case in point as I discovered that many of you have the EMS installed before the ATS and I knew the previously installed EMS on my coach was between the ATS and Main Panel (which monitors Genny and Shore power).

21 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

You run the risk of overloading the neutral.

Thank you Tom for pointing out the voltage differences in the Genny and Shore power and potential problems it can create with an overloaded neutral to the Progressive EMS.  

Future project for me is to move EMS to before ATS and install an Autoformer on the feed from the Shore going to the EMS.  Until then, I will monitor carefully the Amp load when using the Genny.

[marcbachman]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:22 PM, marcbachman said:

Hello, Monacoers- I am going to tell on myself. I can use a voltmeter but am apparently too lazy. I ordered the new transfer switch, which should be here today. I did a little bit more analysis to find out that my IOTA transfer switch indeed latches every time. Apparently the inverter, Magnum ME2012, was not inverting when I plugged in to shore power, and I erroneously assumed that it was the transfer switch. I took off the inspection cover on the side of the inverter, and verified that the incoming voltage was there @115 VAC, but that there was 0 output voltage to the coach. So I'm just presuming that since the house batteries were down that the inverter had gone into recharge mode to charge my house batteries, and that nothing will work until those batteries were charged. I checked later, and the Status panel in my camper showed that I had 50 amps, all my 12V appliances were green LED,  and the MAGNUM panel showed "Absorption Charging" and a voltage number,  or something like that. So the implication is that the transfer switch is latching, but my batteries had run down to where the inverter was shut off, until the batteries were charged enough. So the detail left to consult is that the new transfer switch is designed for the shore power and generator power lines to come in on one side, and the 115V to come out of the opposite side. I hope I have enough slack to make this work and there is enough room inside the new transfer switch, and that I can find the room to punch a hole for the output power going to the coach.

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

4 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

Tom,

I recently purchased and installed a new EMS-HW-50C into my 2006 Dynasty. I don't see any reference to error codes C-11 or C-12 in the documentation. Are you stating that they looked into BUT abandoned the upgrade to incorporate a test for Fake 50-amp pedestals in their new EMS-HW-50C units?

As you know, I build custom Power/Pedestal Testers for RV owners who are electrically challenged or don't want to spend the time and money to build one. Those testers check for correct polarity, open ground or neutral, voltage levels on each Leg #1 & #2, plus tests for Fake 50-amp. They work for any 50-amp and can also check any 30-amp, 20-amp or 15-amp with proper dog-bone or adapters.

These testers are great to test any pedestal BEFORE spending the time to get settled into a site only to find out the pedestal power has a problem. If everything checks out, then the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C will protect the coach by constantly monitoring the power while parked.

Example below.

Yes, the “C” codes were for the Beta board that I had.  The Techs told it never got into production units and we beta testers would not receive tech support, based their new marching orders.  I got a replacement board…with a bit of “leverage”.  Never needed it since.

Yes, your tester gets high marks and unless one had the INTELLITEC EMS, which the upper food chain does not, you are at risk.

3 hours ago, Land Lubber said:

I recently replaced the Iota transfer switch in the '09 Monaco Camelot we bought 2 years ago. I had read about the fire issues so I had it replaced. The service manager at our local shop questioned me on why I wanted to replace it. I explained to him the issues but apparently he was not up to date on these transfer switches. After inspecting it though he noted some burn spots on the connections. I replaced the Iota with a Surge Guard 41260.

Google it. There was NHTSA Recall on the IOTA.  Odd that a reputable shop would not know as I think that owners from all brands could choose a shop as long as the cost was within a range.  The replacement had to be a simple ATS without the surge whistles and bells.

[marcbachman]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:28 AM, Dr4Film said:

You are lucky that you still have a coach. Others weren't so lucky.

Replace it with an ESCO or Surge Guard Transfer Switch.

Hello Dr4Film and Monacoers- Even though it looks like to me that my transfer switch is working, it's that my inverter is actually what doesn't want to work intermittently, I'm sure I should replace my transfer switch. I got my SurgeGuard 41260 ( brand new transfer switch )yesterday and now I'm not too sure about how good of an idea it is, especially if I could get some really important features with another different transfer switch. I need to do something this week, or just sit on my thumb until after the next trip. As I said earlier, because all three of the sets of conductors from the generator, the inverter, and the cable that goes to the downstream panels all come in from the top of the bay for the transfer switch and the giant cable that goes to the power pedestal. The better transfer switches, if I understand right, protect against other power faults as well as a power surge. They seem to cost 2-3 times as much, as well.

[Tom Cherry]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:01 AM, marcbachman said:

I would really want to be able to recommend a mechanical/electrical device with the knowledge that I or someone I trust has represented that the manufacturer and/ or the device has a good warranty or a good track record. I have no such inspiration for a recommendation. I have ordered a Technology Research ( now Southwire ) 41260 transfer switch because it reportedly has surge protection built in. It is a verrry expensive item, and will require that I adapt it to my application in terms of how I route the wiring,  and I would guess that a good lightning or AC surge will burn out some part of a circuit board or similar protection that is built in. So that means I will pay a handsome price for the surge protection. This is my second motorhome, I don't even remember what transfer method was on the first one, so never mind that. I am a member of our local Holiday Ramblers group, which is aging out, and our future is somewhat uncertain. We have a member who has some kind of RV repair shop going in a county hundreds of miles from me. So far he has not offered or suggested many remedies for the electrical issues I have had, so I'm pretty much still on my own. That's why I'm here. There are some recommendations on other replies to my initial post.

Based on your last post about “potential buyers remorse” after you received the 41260, I would offer this.

The combo of an HW50C upstream of an ESCO LPT50BRD is simplicity.  Both are well known for relaibiiity.  Both are user field serviceable.. there are only “3 boards” and two contactors.  Tech support, while I have not been as euphoric about at Progressive, is still good and the design is simple.  There is a control board and a MOS (the sacrificial surge or lightning) board.  
 

I do not know the cost of the 41250.  You can easily nada up the costs of the HW50C and the LPT50BRD. I do not know if there is a “self diagnostics” that tells you all is well on it on boot up. I do not know if it has a remote that you can mount INSIDE and monitor the amperage and the voltages on each line. I do not know if the MOS chips are on a separate replaceable (in the field) board.  I do not know if it has a readout or error codes or some type of diagnostics so you KNOW it is 100% and working.  I do not know the serviceability of it in the field or if you have to pull it out and send it in.

I recognize the name Southwire and know it has a good reputation for “some” electronics and “wire”…

I would look at the items “I don’t know” and then call Southwire technical support and ask them.  I will say that having a 3 or 4 ft additional lead (read my posts on installing the two) does give you more slack and freedom during the physical install.

You, have the POINT as a buddy said when he assigned me some Church electrical upgrades responsibilities told the rest of the folks, “Tom’s got the POINT”.  You got the POINT now…with some insights perhaps better than a few days ago.  

[Dr4Film]

On 8/14/2022 at 5:29 PM, marcbachman said:

Hello Dr4Film and Monacoers- Even though it looks like to me that my transfer switch is working, it's that my inverter is actually what doesn't want to work intermittently, I'm sure I should replace my transfer switch. I got my SurgeGuard 41260 ( brand new transfer switch )yesterday and now I'm not too sure about how good of an idea it is, especially if I could get some really important features with another different transfer switch. I need to do something this week, or just sit on my thumb until after the next trip. As I said earlier, because all three of the sets of conductors from the generator, the inverter, and the cable that goes to the downstream panels all come in from the top of the bay for the transfer switch and the giant cable that goes to the power pedestal. The better transfer switches, if I understand right, protect against other power faults as well as a power surge. They seem to cost 2-3 times as much, as well.

The Southwire Surge Guard model 41260 is an excellent transfer switch for the money. It does have surge protection with 2600 Joules. It also will check for open neutral and reverse polarity. There are two indicator lights on the face of the panel that will light when the transfer switch needs service. There is also a Time Delay of 3 seconds when shore power is connected and a 30 second delay when you start up the generator. It is also Generator dominate. 

There two more expensive and better Southwire Surge Guard Transfer Switches, model 40350 and 40450. They have better surge protection with 3350 Joules of protection PLUS they check for ALL possible power problems similar to the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C unit does. The 40350 & 40450 can come with an optional remote. However, if the coach has an Aladdin System you would need to purchase the 40450 in order for it to talk with the Aladdin System and display monitor.

Since the previous owner of my coach chose to replace the original TRC Surge Guard model 40250 with a new Southwire Surge Guard model 41260, instead of replacing it with the 40450, I chose to add the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C unit prior to the transfer switch so I now have FULL power protection not provided by the 41260 transfer switch.

I also installed two remote displays for the EMS-HW-50C, one in the service bay and one in the bedroom closet.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Dr4Film

[saflyer]

On 8/8/2022 at 9:52 AM, marcbachman said:

MODERATOR EDIT.  This post is a classic example of the IOTA 50-R ATS that was recalled by most major RV or MH Manufacturers several year ago. IOTA refused to accept any LIABILITY.  These ATS have caught fire and also stranded many individuals. The poster is very lucky to have figured out the issue.  The contacts and the terminal strip created High Resistance connections.  Even a thorough retightening does not correct the problem.

They need to be replaced.  Monaco was purchased by Navistar. Navistar recalled ALL the IOTA's they installed.  However the Bankruptcy of Monaco absolved Navistar of any liability for the Monaco production and IOTA refused to participate in the NHTSA Recall.

If you MUST use one until you can purchase and install a replacement, retighten the terminals and use sparingly.  ESCO, a well known brand and one of the most popular choices for replacement, also recommends using Loctite Green on the terminals.  If not, they need to be retightened periodically....but also even with Loctite, they should be checked every few years...or more if you are a high miler.  This, I assume from discussions with ESCO on the maintenance would apply to all.

EDITED NOTE...if you have an IOTA with the #2 Square drive screws in the terminals, I reused them. A SHARP Poster just gave some INSIGHT.  DO NOT REUSE THE IOTA SCREWS (on Page 2).  They DID work for me...but they MAY have had a different "point" and more contact area on the wire. 

Hello Monacoers- I am fixing, or attempting to fix an intermittent shore power problem. When I get home with my camper or to a campground, and attempt to plug into shore power, I have to "pump" my transfer switch to get it to connect to the power coming from my power cable. At least this is my explanation for why I don't get power right away. I have been working around this for almost a year, I would say, give or take. It's now time to take the bull by the horns. I have been looking for any type of mechanism in my camper that would cause this behavior and my analysis is that it is my transfer switch, the IOTA IS50R. I see that there was a recall on these, don't know why the previous owner(s) didn't take care of this. Certain suggestions are that it wasn't this transfer switch, but an installation problem as a result of not enough torque applied to the connections. If anyone wants to, please tell me what I need to get to ensure that my replacement lasts as long as it should. Maybe these transfer switches are a more consumable item that I would guess.

I’ve decided to go with the LPT50BRD. While shopping for them I find wildly different prices. Further confusing the issue Amazon has one that says in the title it’s an Elkhart LPT59BRD but in the expanded description it says ESCO. It’s sold by Amazon for about $218. Another Amazon vendor has one that does say ESCO in the title for about $360. The RV upgrade store has it for about $290. They all say LYGHT on the cover. Should I just go by price or could there be differences?

 

Also, please clarify if there can be a hum issue or was this corrected in new units?

Thanks,

Ed              
‘05 HR Ambassador 

 

 

[96 EVO]

My LPT50BRD makes no sound.

Haven't heard of a '59' model till now.

[Dr4Film]

26 minutes ago, saflyer said:

I’ve decided to go with the LPT50BRD. While shopping for them I find wildly different prices. Further confusing the issue Amazon has one that says in the title it’s an Elkhart LPT59BRD but in the expanded description it says ESCO. It’s sold by Amazon for about $218. Another Amazon vendor has one that does say ESCO in the title for about $360. The RV upgrade store has it for about $290. They all say LYGHT on the cover. Should I just go by price or could there be differences?

Also, please clarify if there can be a hum issue or was this corrected in new units?

The $218 transfer switch is the exact same one as the $360 transfer switch as is the one for $290. Just depends on which vendor you are purchasing it from.

There will be NO hum fromthe LPTBRD as the relay coils are all 12 VDC versus the 120 VAC coils found in the ESCO 65N model.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Dr4Film

[saflyer]

34 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

My LPT50BRD makes no sound.

Haven't heard of a '59' model till now.

Sorry, 50. I do my best proofreading after hitting SEND.

[96 EVO]

6 minutes ago, saflyer said:

Sorry, 50. I do my best proofreading after hitting SEND.

Got it!

Thought maybe they introduced a new model.

[Georgia Mike]

My brother-in-law has a newmar and he was showing me a picture today and I noticed the transfer switch. Is this one of the ones that can cause a fire?