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Intellitec EMS discussion & trouble shooting.... Shore Power & Fake 50Ampser?


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We spent last week at an Army Corps of Engineers campground and after plugging in to the 50 amp pedestal, my Progressive Industries EMS-LCHW50 registered 135 volts on leg 2 causing the unit to keep cutting off power to the RV.  Leg 1 was showing 123 volts.  The campground was run by only 2 people as the Corps has not been taking new reservations for some time since they can't get any one to work... So no maintenance man to call on.  Luckily we had unseasonable cool weather and I was able to use the 30 amp connection and only run one AC.  

So here's the question... is there any way to regulate the voltage down to 120 volts when it is higher? 

Is this a common occurrence?  I can't find anything posted about it.

I know that the Hughes Autoformer will step up the voltage but apparently from their documentation does not put a max on voltage.

Thanks again for all the great info, we are in this battle together (keeping the Monacos running).

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29 minutes ago, NGADawgs said:

We spent last week at an Army Corps of Engineers campground and after plugging in to the 50 amp pedestal, my Progressive Industries EMS-LCHW50 registered 135 volts on leg 2 causing the unit to keep cutting off power to the RV.  Leg 1 was showing 123 volts.  The campground was run by only 2 people as the Corps has not been taking new reservations for some time since they can't get any one to work... So no maintenance man to call on.  Luckily we had unseasonable cool weather and I was able to use the 30 amp connection and only run one AC.  

So here's the question... is there any way to regulate the voltage down to 120 volts when it is higher? 

Is this a common occurrence?  I can't find anything posted about it.

I know that the Hughes Autoformer will step up the voltage but apparently from their documentation does not put a max on voltage.

Thanks again for all the great info, we are in this battle together (keeping the Monacos running).

In a word….NO…. You can NOT regulate the voltage….unless Hughes says so.

This is a common problem.  Mine was the opposite.  The voltage was low as we were sharing a feed that has a big electric resistance furnace on it for a portable office.

ODDS ARE….the CG and the Power Company got tired of hearing complaints about low voltage.  There are “taps” on transformers that the power company  changes.  This is NOT something that a CG’s electrician or outside service or maintenance would do,

If there are several other folks on the site, then odds are they are using one leg or Line 1.  When they load it up from a 30 amp one side…it drops.  So, that would explain the 123 VAC.

The CG might get them out….or they might not want to change the tap for fear of low voltage on the far sites. This is more of a “Judgement call or trial and error” than just measuring and changing. I have had to move several times and the CG folks say….NOBODY ELSE COMPLAINED….You gotta a problem in your rig.  Ever try to explain voltage drop due to load and an unbalanced 240 VAC load and the stupidity of some electricians when they wired the CG and having a measurement device on your rig.  I did once….and never attempted again…LOL!

My suggestion. Use your 30 A adapter.  NOW, 135 is really high….maybe the power guy got confused….but it will take a good lineman and an understanding CG a manager to make a change…. You may have to find a pedestal that is on the loaded side of Line 1….as the ones on the unloaded side of Line 2 will still be high…

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Gary, have you actually measured voltage at the post with voltmeter?  I had exact same thing happen with a new EMS. I found that the actual voltage was higher but still within reason and it was the EMS reading it wrong and shutting down. There are pots inside it where you can correct the readings to correlate with reality. I don't remember which is for which line anymore but Progressive tech support knew exactly what I needed to do.

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Yes, I calibrated my EMS on a trip to Florida this summer.  After I calibrated it, I was able to eek out around 105-110 volts and was able to run both ACs all week.  Otherwise the vacation would have been over as there were friends in 8 other rigs camping there and no vacancies.  Yes, I bought the Hughes Autoformer after that.  My next project is to see if I can get the Hughes permanently installed into my electrical bay by replacing the Iota auto-transfer switch and jockeying all three pieces of equipment around.  However, my dear wife says I can't do that project until our two week trip that starts next week is over...that's forward thinking!

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2 minutes ago, Chuck B 2004 Windsor said:

The campground has a defective power company transformer feeding the campground.  The local power company needs to replace their transformer.  

Chuck, 

NOT out of the realm of possibilities, but many CG have the power set up into the 130's as the voltage drop from the service to the far sites does run as much as 10 -15 or even 20  Volts.  We will probably never know....  I had one that was fine, in the upper 125 or so when we checked in at a KOA in St. Louis.  Then it GOT hot....all the 30 Amp TT ran their AC's and it dropped to under 105....  SO....it does happen....especially if the CG doesn't have but one feeder or doesn't split it into zones.

 

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Many, many years ago I used to dangle off 45 ft power poles and work on power lines. I am not going to get into the technical details of high voltage on Single phase lines as it gets complex. High voltage on a single phase 120 volt line is not nearly a headache as in a 3 phase system which has one leg feeding a higher voltage then the other two. In industrial 3 phase systems/feeds this can overheat motors and destroy them.

Just so happens we have an electrical engineer here on this forum whose career was all centered around designing power line systems. I am sure, since Scotty Hutto has so much time on his hands ( in between his fancy seafood dinners ) he will give you a run down on why residential power lines can be over the voltage max. Most people do not know that there are many components to an electrical power line feed that one answer doesn't fit all. People like to pull the transformer gun from the holster but there are other impedance issues as well. Substations, re-closures, regulators, relays, capacitors, etc. I have witnessed fires and explosions on all of these and have taken many electrical shocks to know anything and everything can go wrong in a power line system. It also helps to remember that a single phase power line feed is a single phase. Power companies and linemen think in 3 phase terms X-Y-Z. In other words your area maybe fed off X phase while the subdivision across the street is fed off Y phase. Phasing is very important to a lineman and I have seen phasing get switched to where industrial motors run backwards. While electricity can be a scary thing it also can be complex once you start working back from the pedestal. I think Scotty can better explain what could be happening better then I can. I built and repaired powerlines, Scotty designed them. In other words he outranks me. Besides Scotty has a lot more free time then I do.  🙂

 

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After spending decades dealing with these type issues, I can tell you it’s unlikely(but not impossible) that the power company has the voltage taps set too high. Why?  Liability. If the transformer taps are set on too high voltage, the power company is liable and will likely end up paying damages to all of the customers on that transformer. Anything over 132 volts at the transformer taps and they won’t even argue - they’ll just cut a check.  In 40 years I don’t ever recall having to lower the taps on a transformer because of high voltage. Not saying it never happens, just saying it didn’t happen to me with a pretty decent sample size  

So what could it be?  In all my years of investigations, high voltage complaints typically boiled down to two issues: 1) Loose neutral, or 2) something a neighboring home or facility was doing (I.e., very large loads cutting on and off, like Tom’s big resistive load mentioned above)

Can a loose neutral cause voltage to be high?  Absolutely. Does your EMS detect it? Not always. This happened to me last fall at my in-laws house. Grounds were not bonded, neutral was loose, and my EMS was shutting off the heat pump in the middle of the night?l. Solution… although I knew how to fix it, it wasn’t my house so I called an electrician who brought it up to code.  

I ALWAYS check voltage - even at places I stay regularly - at the campground with the pedestal tester Richard @Dr4Film built for me.  It also detects open neutrals  

The best advice in these situations was given by Ivan.  Get a real voltmeter and check it.  If the voltage is above 132 VAC on either or both legs, call the campground.  Short of repairing their system for them (not recommended), the best you can do is use the 30A adapter and limp through. 

also noted… a loose neutral was the most common cause of electrical fires during my tenure.  Can’t say if that’s true nationwide, but in my little corner of the world it was. 

Which brings me to my final admonition...  Do your annual maintenance on your electrical system and make sure alll connections are tight!  With NO power to the coach, genny off, and inverter off.  Even then, treat every connection like it’s hot until/unless you’ve checked it with a voltage tester or voltmeter.  

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My experience, especially in older campgrounds, is that the installer put all (or most) of the 30-Amp outlets on the same leg of the 220-VAC line.  When all the RVers that use only 30-Amp service plug in, they are all on one leg of the 220-VAC circuit which creates a load unbalance that moving transformer tap around will not cure.  There are devices that can help this issue, but not in the price range of most coach owner.  The likely cost much more than the list price of your coach.  You have two realistic solutions.  First, do as you did, go with 30-Amp only.  But this contribute to the original problem, so watch for less voltage.  Second, move.

  - Rick N 

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33 minutes ago, Scotty Hutto said:

After spending decades dealing with these type issues, I can tell you it’s unlikely(but not impossible) that the power company has the voltage taps set too high. Why?  Liability. If the transformer taps are set on too high voltage, the power company is liable and will likely end up paying damages to all of the customers on that transformer. Anything over 132 volts at the transformer taps and they won’t even argue - they’ll just cut a check.  In 40 years I don’t ever recall having to lower the taps on a transformer because of high voltage. Not saying it never happens, just saying it didn’t happen to me with a pretty decent sample size  

So what could it be?  In all my years of investigations, high voltage complaints typically boiled down to two issues: 1) Loose neutral, or 2) something a neighboring home or facility was doing (I.e., very large loads cutting on and off, like Tom’s big resistive load mentioned above)

Can a loose neutral cause voltage to be high?  Absolutely. Does your EMS detect it? Not always. This happened to me last fall at my in-laws house. Grounds were not bonded, neutral was loose, and my EMS was shutting off the heat pump in the middle of the night?l. Solution… although I knew how to fix it, it wasn’t my house so I called an electrician who brought it up to code.  

I ALWAYS check voltage - even at places I stay regularly - at the campground with the pedestal tester Richard @Dr4Film built for me.  It also detects open neutrals  

The best advice in these situations was given by Ivan.  Get a real voltmeter and check it.  If the voltage is above 132 VAC on either or both legs, call the campground.  Short of repairing their system for them (not recommended), the best you can do is use the 30A adapter and limp through. 

also noted… a loose neutral was the most common cause of electrical fires during my tenure.  Can’t say if that’s true nationwide, but in my little corner of the world it was. 

Which brings me to my final admonition...  Do your annual maintenance on your electrical system and make sure alll connections are tight!  With NO power to the coach, genny off, and inverter off.  Even then, treat every connection like it’s hot until/unless you’ve checked it with a voltage tester or voltmeter.  

As a "Wanna be" Electrical Engineer that didn't understand enough calculus to graduate as an EE, but got a "Manufacturing" Engineering degree instead and spent most of my career in manufacturing and supervised many maintenance departments and also designed, conceptually, electrical systems for new plants and renovations....and someone that has been doing home wiring for over 60 years, Scotty speaks with authority. I have talked to a lot of electricians who had power company lineman experience.  I was not aware of the upper limit....so Scotty clarified that.  

I would comment, for Scotty's benefit, that the Progressive HW series has a very accurate meter on the remote....and assume it is the same for the non-remote model. If you were reading that high...it WAS that high.  I know many folks that always test the pedestal with either Richard's meter or do a probe test. 

NOW....I admit to being lazy. BUT, with the Progressive unit, I KNOW, IMMEDIATELY. what is going on.  DW always checks the display and calls out the values as it flashes.  So, in effect, I am doing the same as reading the pedestal or using a device like Richards. The HW series will NOT provide power if there is an OPEN neutral.....it CAN be overridden....but you have to manually do that. 

If the power is NOT within a good range or marginal, I STOP and don't turn anything on. We turn OFF the AC's at the thermostat and our house batteries are charged as we drive, so we have minimum load.  I make a judgement call as to how crowded the park is and what the folks around me have as rigs.  If one line is low....but not past the 108 range....and the other is high....I usually move.

I can also elaborate on Rick's experience.  YES....the older CG's were wired that way as nobody ever understood that there were 240 50A rigs out there.  

I have also been at a moderately "new" and nice KOA north of St. Louis that had great power when we checked in late one day.  It was cloudy and overcast.  A few days later, it was HOT and HUMID.  The HW50C shut down. One LINE was barely 100 VAC as every one of the TT's were using 30 Amps and running the AC's for all they could get. I switched to Genny then....

But in a newer KOA, north of Memphis in AR, they had a NEW section dedicated to "big rigs".  They put me on an old one and I had low voltage....  They immediately moved me to the new section where the power was great.  It ALWAYS HELPS TO ASK about power and if they have a 50 amp section for big rigs. The first section DID have 50...but the distribution was incorrect.  The CG manager said that the new section was "Wired differently", but he had NO IDEA what that meant....but folks that had issues and were moved never had any problems.

And YES....there are FAKE 50 AMP services out there.  Those of us with the Intellitec EMS need to be aware of this.  Richard's tester will tell you that.  Measuring will tell you that. The EMS remote will tell you that.  SO....if you have an HW series....look at it..... and ALSO at the EMS (which I THINK that you have)....if it shows 30 or 20....then that is a FAKE 50 amp....and you COULD overload...

Good Luck.....

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After a few hours at the lake in the RV, I was able to think more clearly and wanted to add...

When I say "loose neutral", most of us (myself included) tend to immediately think of the neutral in the pedestal, BUT... that loose neutral connection can be at the pedestal, at the switchbox, at the service entry (point of connection between the power company and the campground, i.e., the meter - very common), or even before that, at the power pole (or for underground systems, the padmount transformer).

Hence, my advice that if the problem is at the pedestal, let the campground, their electrician, and their host utility handle it.  By virtue of the fact that we own these complex beasts, most of us are "Fix it" type folks, but for safety's sake, this is one instance we shouldn't try to fix it...

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Scotty has given some very good advice about watching out for a loose neutral causing high line voltages.  One of the things I monitor on my coach is the Line 1 and Line 2 voltage readings.  My rule of thumb is that with load, I don't want to see any more than a volt or two difference between line 1 and line 2.  When you start seeing a delta more than that be suspicious of a loose neutral.  If say you have 40 amp draw on line 1 and 30 amp draw on line 2, the current draw on the neutral should be 10 amp unless it's loose and having resistance.  When that happens, one of the lines will see voltage rise and the other line will see voltage drop.  Normally voltage protection devices will catch this problem but periodically monitoring line 1 and line 2 voltages is a good practice.   That's one of the reasons why a good pedestal voltage tester will put a load on each line to determine if you might have a loose neutral connection.

The other issue is with "fake" 50 amp service where both line voltages are 120 volts but in phase.  This means that the neutral line must be able to carry 100 amps of power.  Our power cables and panel boxes are not rated to carry 100 amps of power on the neutral wire.  If you measure the pedestal voltage between line 1 and line 2 and don't get 240 volts, but read near zero volts, you have a fake 50 amp service.  In that case the maximum power you can use when adding the current on line 1 plus line 2 is 50 amps.  If you have a true 50 amp service with 240 volts between line 1 and line 2, your maximum power is 50 amps on line 1 and 50 amps on line two adding up to 100 amps of 120 VAC power.  Under this scenario, the neutral will carry 0 amps because the two lines drawing 50 amps each are out of phase lines that cancel each other out.  If one line is drawing 50 amps and the other line is drawing zero amps, the maximum draw on the neutral is 50 amps.  That's why both AC lines and the neutral line only needs to be rated for 50 amps when plugged into a real 50 amp 240 volt power pedestal. 

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7 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

Scotty has given some very good advice about watching out for a loose neutral causing high line voltages.  One of the things I monitor on my coach is the Line 1 and Line 2 voltage readings.  My rule of thumb is that with load, I don't want to see any more than a volt or two difference between line 1 and line 2.  When you start seeing a delta more than that be suspicious of a loose neutral.  If say you have 40 amp draw on line 1 and 30 amp draw on line 2, the current draw on the neutral should be 10 amp unless it's loose and having resistance.  When that happens, one of the lines will see voltage rise and the other line will see voltage drop.  Normally voltage protection devices will catch this problem but periodically monitoring line 1 and line 2 voltages is a good practice.   That's one of the reasons why a good pedestal voltage tester will put a load on each line to determine if you might have a loose neutral connection.

The other issue is with "fake" 50 amp service where both line voltages are 120 volts but in phase.  This means that the neutral line must be able to carry 100 amps of power.  Our power cables and panel boxes are not rated to carry 100 amps of power on the neutral wire.  If you measure the pedestal voltage between line 1 and line 2 and don't get 240 volts, but read near zero volts, you have a fake 50 amp service.  In that case the maximum power you can use when adding the current on line 1 plus line 2 is 50 amps.  If you have a true 50 amp service with 240 volts between line 1 and line 2, your maximum power is 50 amps on line 1 and 50 amps on line two adding up to 100 amps of 120 VAC power.  Under this scenario, the neutral will carry 0 amps because the two lines drawing 50 amps each are out of phase lines that cancel each other out.  If one line is drawing 50 amps and the other line is drawing zero amps, the maximum draw on the neutral is 50 amps.  That's why both AC lines and the neutral line only needs to be rated for 50 amps when plugged into a real 50 amp 240 volt power pedestal. 

Hey Guys, once again thanks for the great info.  Until this post, I haven't' ever heard about Fake 50 amp service.  If my thinking is right, can I assume that if it is fake 50 amp service then the meter on my EMS should show that L1 and L2 have the same voltage?  or maybe off by 1 volt due to the meter calibration?  Or, is the only way to detect this by checking for 240V across both legs with a voltmeter?  I don't believe the EMS is checking for this by looking at their error codes.

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3 hours ago, NGADawgs said:

Hey Guys, once again thanks for the great info.  Until this post, I haven't' ever heard about Fake 50 amp service.  If my thinking is right, can I assume that if it is fake 50 amp service then the meter on my EMS should show that L1 and L2 have the same voltage?  or maybe off by 1 volt due to the meter calibration?  Or, is the only way to detect this by checking for 240V across both legs with a voltmeter?  I don't believe the EMS is checking for this by looking at their error codes.

Frank answered....and I would put it this way.  With a FAKE 50 Amp service, you WILL see, on the Progressive, Line 1 and Line 2 voltages that may or may not be identical.  Probably are.  It is the same as having a 30 amp service, but if the pedestal pulled it off the incoming and did not have Line 1 and Line 2, it IS protected by 50 amps....assuming there is a breaker.  

On the Intellitec EMS, you will ONLY see 30 or 20 amps.  The reason, the EMS measures Line 1 to Line 2 and if it is not, say 220 or so VAC, then it reverts back and thinks it is a 120 VAC Service.  NOW....that is the HAZARD....but what the real issue is . 

The Neutral in a 240 System will, if the loads are EXACTLY balanced, carry ZERO amps.  Don't ask for more detail....you will regret it.  LOL.

OK>>>>>SEE THE EDITED REST OF THE POST....

The real world is this.  You have a 204 VAC Line 1 and Line 2 load of exactly 30 amps.  If you measure the Neutral with a clamp on meter....you get ZERO.  Say WHAT....you measured the Line 1 and Line 2 and each read 30.  That is because the 240 is an OUT OF PHASE system...

OK....What if the Line 1 Drops to 25 and the Line 2 Increases to 35.  NOW measure the neutral and you get 35 minus 25 or 10.  SO, if you have ZERO load on Line 1 and a full 50 Amps on Line 2....the DIFFERENCE will be 50 and that is SAFE.

NOW....you get a FAKE 240 Pedestal....where only Line 1 (or 2) is used....and they jumper it to BOTH sides of the Pedestal.  NOW....THAT is a "IN PHASE" system....  Illustration from above.  Line 2 has 30 and Line one has 30.  NOW, the Neutral will read 60 or the SUMK (not the DIFFERNCE) of the Amp loads.  You are OVERLOADED as the Neutral is only 55 max....in a 50 amp breaker.

Take that ONE STEP FURTHER (see my response to Richard's post).  If you have a 120 VACK 7.5 KW or 8 KW, then if you are pulling 35 amps per leg (the dual pole breaker's rating on the Genny), you will have 70 amps total.  You are at RISK....as the current is WAY above the rated value of 55 amps.  YES....Monaco probably KNEW this....but they would have had to run #4 from the Genny to the ATS and #4 from the ATS to the main panel.

They did NOT.  Folks that install a Progressive HW50C AFTER the ATS will (and have) burn out the 50 Amp contactor.

A sharp eyed "expert" pointed out my "oversimplification" or the "zero" current phrase originally posted....so this is EDITED and corrected.

WAY TOO MUCH INFO....but one also needs to know that you can overload your cabling by pulling more that 50 amps or a sum of line 1 and line 2, in and IN PHASE system .....  on the Genny.  The Intellitec EMS will ADD or display the total neutral.  NEVER EXCEED 50 AMPS...

 

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2 hours ago, NGADawgs said:

Hey guys, once again thanks for the great info.  Until this post, I haven't' ever heard about Fake 50-amp service.  If my thinking is right, can I assume that if it is fake 50-amp service then the meter on my EMS should show that L1 and L2 have the same voltage?  or maybe off by 1 volt due to the meter calibration?  Or is the only way to detect this by checking for 240V across both legs with a voltmeter?  I don't believe the EMS is checking for this by looking at their error codes.

There are TWO different EMS systems found in RV's. One is made by Progressive Industries and one is made by Intellitec. They are used for completely different purposes.

The one you reference above in your post is the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C as that one issues error codes when the incoming power is out of normal range. That device does not check for Fake 50-amp power, nor does it issue a code when that condition occurs.

However, the EMS unit made by Intellitec (some coaches do not have this device) that is used to monitor the amount of voltage being used by the coach as compared to the amount of voltage available from shore power will show 30 amps on the EMS display not the 50 amps that you were expecting as Frank pointed out in his post above.

Therefore, the only way to actually test for fake 50-amp service is to measure across Leg#1 & Leg#2 for 240 VAC or have a plug-in tester that detects fake 50-amp power.

Edited by Dr4Film
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10 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

There are TWO different EMS systems found in RV's. One is made by Progressive Industries and one is made by Intellitec. They are used for completely different purposes.

The one you reference above in your post is the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C as that one issues error codes when the incoming power is out of normal range. That device does not check for Fake 50-amp power, nor does it issue a code when that condition occurs.

However, the EMS unit made by Intellitec (some coaches do not have this device) that is used to monitor the amount of voltage being used by the coach as compared to the amount of voltage available from shore power will show 30 amps on the EMS display not the 50 amps that you were expecting as Frank pointed out in his post above.

Therefore, the only way to actually test for fake 50-amp service is to measure across Leg#1 & Leg#2 for 240 VAC or have a plug-in tester that detects fake 50-amp power.

Agreed and informative.  But, I would not classify them both  as EMS.  BUT....in Richard's defense.....BOTH Intellitec and Progressive uses the acronym....EMS (Energy Management System). 

The Intellitec is a Monitoring and SHEDDING SYSTEM....that prevents or tries to prevent OVERLOADS. It does NOT monitor any "power characteristics" or tell you about the quality and the individual line loads and Hertz.  Since it SHEDS loads, then Intellitec called it a MANAGEMENT....

The Progressive is also a Monitoring....but it does NOT shed Loads.  Since it protects you from surges and ugly voltage and Hertz issues....they, TOO, call it Management....It will prevent overvoltage or undervoltage or open neutral or hertz or about 12 functions (see the ERROR CODES). 

As Richard says.  It tells you IF you have a REAL 240 (Out of Phase) system.  It the Intellitec EMS ASSUMES that the Pedestal Breaker is a 50 A ....but some enterprising CG will put in a 30.  Don't ASK....Idiots are allowed

OK....now it is getting heavy....NOW....the REAL RUB....and the Confusion.  IF you have a 240 VAC Generator, the Intellitec will also tell you that....in that the Gen SET is ON....as it has a Genny Run input....and if that is 240....then you get a 50 Amp light.

BUT....here is the issue....these were not used or maybe never used on the Dynasties and up from about 2005 or so....or maybe even earlier....as there was a separate system and you could monitor current from one of the displays (don't ask any more).  BUT, in the Camelots ....THREE AC unit models.  They had a 10 KW Genny and it was 240.  MOST of the other Coaches, Windsors and such and Camelot included, that were 40 ft or so only had TWO AC's and the Intellitec also monitors the Voltage. 

SO....in a 2 AC coach with a 7.5/8 KW generator, the Genny was 120.  OPPS.  Then the Intellitec will only display 30 Amps.  That means....NO 240. 

NOW....the technical explanation.  If you have a 3 AC unit and a 240 Genny, then you will NOT see CURRENT or measurement on the Intellitec.  BUT, on a TWO AC, you will see the NEUTRAL CURRENT.  That is what is coming from the Genny (likewise on a 50 - 30 adapter on SHORE).  You have to read the manual and also the "Definitions" and how it works.  Technically, it measures the current on the Neutral going into the main panel. 

SO, you get the TOTAL current from the Genny....which could be upwards of 70 Amps (they have two pole breakers and the 8 KW is 35 Amps).  The Neutral is ONLY rated at 55 or so....OVERLOAD.  That is WHY you NEVER, EVER mount a Progressive (50 A contacts) DOWNSTREAM of the ATS....it will burn up the contactors.

OK....the Progressive monitors much more and is more informative and it does TURN OFF....not SHED.  It also, if you have the HW50C remote, tell you INSTANTLY about the individual LINE and CURRENT specifics....as well as the Hertz.

My head hurts just typing this....BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND how both are different and how BOTH monitor and work. They are the BEST combination of really understanding how not to OVERLOAD your system.  Prepare for a mass email pop quiz....LOL...

 

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4 hours ago, NGADawgs said:

Hey Guys, once again thanks for the great info.  Until this post, I haven't' ever heard about Fake 50 amp service.  If my thinking is right, can I assume that if it is fake 50 amp service then the meter on my EMS should show that L1 and L2 have the same voltage?  or maybe off by 1 volt due to the meter calibration?  Or, is the only way to detect this by checking for 240V across both legs with a voltmeter?  I don't believe the EMS is checking for this by looking at their error codes.

Richard and Frank and myself have some posts here.  I tried to summarize it....but in two separate responses.

The "Error Codes" in the Progressive are just that.  It is CALLED an EMS....but it doesn't KNOW if you have a FAKE or REAL 50....all it knows is the characteristics of the incoming supply.

Assuming you have an Intellitec EMS, that WILL tell you if the 50 is FAKE or not.  A FAKE 50 will NOT turn on the 50 Amp light....and you WILL see the current on the display...  But if you have a REAL 50 Amp (OUT OF PHASE) system, then the current will NOT be displayed....I can't remember what it will display....maybe blank.

The Progressive Hw50C will display Line 1 Volts and Line 2 Amps.  If you have a FAKE pedestal, NEVER exceed 50 amps TOTAL of Line 1 and Line 2.  See the Examples in my edited post....

Hope this helps.  SO....if you understand HOW to use the Intellitec EMS, it WILL tell you that it is fake....but that is a sublitity that not many pick up....and it ALSO depends on the Intellitec Remote working properly. The Remote is a DUMB device.  It can ONLY toggle between 20 and 30.  If the lights or the indicators are burned out....it will NOT be accurate. YES, that does happen....and there are times where you need to pull off the main panel cover.  NO SHORE or GENNY ON....of course.  Then you pull the 3 amp fuse to the Intellitec (usually on the right) and the pigtails to the PCB and wait a minute....then plug back in and put in the fuse and then put the cover on and then provide power...

Hope this is clear....it took me several attempts to type what was clear to me....NOW...

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29 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Assuming you have an Intellitec EMS, that WILL tell you if the 50 is FAKE or not.  A FAKE 50 will NOT turn on the 50 Amp light....and you WILL see the current on the display...  But if you have a REAL 50 Amp (OUT OF PHASE) system, then the current will NOT be displayed....I can't remember what it will display....maybe blank.

The first photo below is a typical Intellitec EMS Display. When on 50-amp shore power the 50-amp indicator lamp is lit. No amps displayed in middle window. When on Generator power the Gen Set lamp is lit & total amps will be displayed in the middle window. When on 30-amp shore power the 30-amp lamp will be lit and total amps will be displayed. When on 20-amp or 15-amp shore power you have to push the button at the bottom labeled 30/20 amp Select. That will light up the 20-amp lamp & again the total amps will be displayed in the middle window.

The second photo is the remote display for the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C. It rotates display information on the quality of the incoming shore power plus error codes if present.

Intellitec EMS Display.jpg

Progressive EMS Display-02.JPG

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20 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

The first photo below is a typical Intellitec EMS Display. When on 50-amp shore power the 50-amp indicator lamp is lit. No amps displayed in middle window. When on Generator power the Gen Set lamp is lit & total amps will be displayed in the middle window. When on 30-amp shore power the 30-amp lamp will be lit and total amps will be displayed. When on 20-amp or 15-amp shore power you have to push the button at the bottom labeled 30/20 amp Select. That will light up the 20-amp lamp & again the total amps will be displayed in the middle window.

The second photo is the remote display for the Progressive Industries EMS-HW-50C. It rotates display information on the quality of the incoming shore power plus error codes if present.

Intellitec EMS Display.jpg

Progressive EMS Display-02.JPG

Are these photo from you previous Windsor or the Dynasty.

if the generator is a 120 and not 240, like I think is the case, in the picture, you WILL see the amps which is the load on the Neutral.  But if the Genny is a 240, then I thought that the display would be 50 A and the Gen Set light would be On as well.  That is what it says, if I interpret the installation and trouble shooting manual, and there would be no AMP reading.

what type of generator was in the MH in the picture?

Thanks.

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39 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Are these photo from you previous Windsor or the Dynasty.

if the generator is a 120 and not 240, like I think is the case, in the picture, you WILL see the amps which is the load on the Neutral.  But if the Genny is a 240, then I thought that the display would be 50 A and the Gen Set light would be On as well.  That is what it says, if I interpret the installation and trouble shooting manual, and there would be no AMP reading.

what type of generator was in the MH in the picture?

Thanks.

Tom, you are correct.

These photos are from my previous Windsor and the generator is a 120 VAC Inverter generator.

My current Dynasty does not have an Intellitec EMS. The Dynasty's and up did not come standard with those devices. They weren't even a factory option.

But like Bill Groves (RIP) did, he added one to his Dynasty. You would have to add the control board plus cables for board power supply and display then reroute the Romex cables from the power panel of the devices you choose to manage to the board and then back to the device you want to control and shed. There is also a current sensor that has to be installed to the main neutral line too. You also need a Gen Set run signal wire that has to go to the board in order to sense when the Gen Set is running.

I have added the Installation and owner's manual for the Intellitec EMS Model 750.

Intellitec EMS 750 System.pdf

Edited by Dr4Film
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7 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

Tom, you are correct.

These photos are from my previous Windsor and the generator is a 120 VAC Inverter generator.

My current Dynasty does not have an Intellitec EMS. The Dynasty's and up did not come standard with those devices. They weren't even a factory option.

But like Bill Groves (RIP) did, he added one to his Dynasty. You would have to add the control board plus cables for board power supply and display then reroute the Romex cables from the power panel of the devices you choose to manage to the board and then back to the device you want to control and shed. There is also a current sensor that has to be installed to the main neutral line too. You also need a Gen Set run signal wire that has to go to the board in order to sense when the Gen Set is running.

I have added the Installation and owner's manual for the Intellitec EMS Model 750.

Intellitec EMS 750 System.pdf 315.3 kB · 0 downloads

Well, score one for me…. LOL.  Frank and I went over the system, the file you attached, and we both concluded the same thing.  YES, assuming your Intellitec EMS remote has the idiot lights working and is “100%” functional…and M&M says they do go “out” then they will tell you that is it is a fake….but only if you fully understand it.  I admit to being rusty here also…

thanks for the clarification….

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  • Tom Cherry changed the title to Intellitec EMS discussion & trouble shooting.... Shore Power & Fake 50Ampser?

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