2002 Sig (Nav/Exec/Dyn) 12v Interior Grounding Issues? Interior Lights, Rear Camera, etc.

[JJMonaco]

Murphy has struck again!  He always seems to have something new for me…

I think I have a couple of different 12v grounding issues.  

The first one must be an incorrect ground connection to my kitchen florescent lights above the sink (photo  enclosed).  Whenever I turn one or both of them on, that turns on some of the hockey puck ceiling lights throughout the coach and bedroom.  It also messes up the operation of the other light switches.   As long as the florescents remain off, the rest of the lights and switches work as they should. I haven’t been able to figure out how to get the lens off the florescent light to check where the wires come from that power them.  Any insight on removing the lens and what would cause this to turn on the other lights in a dimmed state?

The second issue is an intermittent one- out of the blue all the interior lights go off as well as the power for the in-dash stereo and back camera display. They stop working for 30 seconds to several minutes or so, and then magically come back on.  It has happed when driving and while camped-but only two or three of times.  It’s a real pain…I think it is probably in the salesman switch circuit and suspect it is a loose ground.  I’ve checked the 12v+ connections and they seem fine and I have serviced the negative buss grounding strip under the dash behind the gauges-cleaned the connections with DeoxIT, and then retightened. It’s working fine now until it doesn’t-but I really didn't find any bad connection that would cause the problem. I can’t seem to find where the large white buss ground that connects to the grounding bus goes after it disappears in the lower dash-I suspect the problem is in that line somewhere.

So that’s the question- where is the major ground for the dash coming from?  I have recently replaced the salesman-switch and changed out the two solenoids in the rear high current box for two Victron non-smart battery saver relays.  Everything works fine for weeks until Murphy shows up!

Thank You,

John J

2002 Signature 40

[hex_nut]

John

I would suspect that your biggest issues are failing ballasts in your florescent lights.  When the ballasts age and start to fail electronically, they create a strong electromagnetic field.  The field they create impacts all the other wiring in the area (it is called cross-talk).  In my old '98 Tradewinds, my kitchen light ballast would randomly turn my furnace on (or off) just because the wires were close together in the ceiling.  I replaced those light panels with LED's.  No more problems.

Richard

[Dr4Film]

10 hours ago, jjroxus said:

Murphy has struck again!  He always seems to have something new for me…

I think I have a couple of different 12v grounding issues.  

Any insight on removing the lens and what would cause this to turn on the other lights in a dimmed state?

The second issue is an intermittent one- out of the blue all the interior lights go off as well as the power for the in-dash stereo and back camera display. They stop working for 30 seconds to several minutes or so, and then magically come back on.  It has happed when driving and while camped-but only two or three of times.  It’s a real pain…I think it is probably in the salesman switch circuit and suspect it is a loose ground.  I’ve checked the 12v+ connections and they seem fine and I have serviced the negative buss grounding strip under the dash behind the gauges-cleaned the connections with DeoxIT, and then retightened. It’s working fine now until it doesn’t-but I really didn't find any bad connection that would cause the problem. I can’t seem to find where the large white buss ground that connects to the grounding bus goes after it disappears in the lower dash-I suspect the problem is in that line somewhere.

So that’s the question- where is the major ground for the dash coming from?  I have recently replaced the salesman-switch and changed out the two solenoids in the rear high current box for two Victron non-smart battery saver relays.  Everything works fine for weeks until Murphy shows up!

Thank You,

John J

2002 Signature 40

 

To remove the lens off of the fluorescent light fixture you simply squeeze the long sides of the lens inward ever so slightly to remove.

Can't help you with your second problem other than to bypass the relay circuits that control your 12 VDC such they are all hooked directly together. I don't use the "salesman" switch nor have I ever had a need for it. But I DO need to have 12 VDC when I call for it.

[Chuck B 2004 Windsor]

The Murphy's law in your coach is your "salesman switch".  Do yourself a favor by bypassing it.  

[Old Dog]

Had weird stuff start happening on different Intellitec switch panels and it was all caused by a faulty ballast in a hall light. Promptly changed them all over to LED.

[Tom Cherry]

11 hours ago, jjroxus said:

Murphy has struck again!  He always seems to have something new for me…

I think I have a couple of different 12v grounding issues.  

The first one must be an incorrect ground connection to my kitchen florescent lights above the sink (photo  enclosed).  Whenever I turn one or both of them on, that turns on some of the hockey puck ceiling lights throughout the coach and bedroom.  It also messes up the operation of the other light switches.   As long as the florescents remain off, the rest of the lights and switches work as they should. I haven’t been able to figure out how to get the lens off the florescent light to check where the wires come from that power them.  Any insight on removing the lens and what would cause this to turn on the other lights in a dimmed state?

The second issue is an intermittent one- out of the blue all the interior lights go off as well as the power for the in-dash stereo and back camera display. They stop working for 30 seconds to several minutes or so, and then magically come back on.  It has happed when driving and while camped-but only two or three of times.  It’s a real pain…I think it is probably in the salesman switch circuit and suspect it is a loose ground.  I’ve checked the 12v+ connections and they seem fine and I have serviced the negative buss grounding strip under the dash behind the gauges-cleaned the connections with DeoxIT, and then retightened. It’s working fine now until it doesn’t-but I really didn't find any bad connection that would cause the problem. I can’t seem to find where the large white buss ground that connects to the grounding bus goes after it disappears in the lower dash-I suspect the problem is in that line somewhere.

So that’s the question- where is the major ground for the dash coming from?  I have recently replaced the salesman-switch and changed out the two solenoids in the rear high current box for two Victron non-smart battery saver relays.  Everything works fine for weeks until Murphy shows up!

Thank You,

John J

2002 Signature 40

From the top.  You Dynasty Prints, which are in the Owner's Manual are a bit "Different" from most MH prints.  So, it takes someone that can "Speak" Dynasty (the Sig and Nav and Exe are all the same system).   I scanned through them.  Here is what I think...

First. the Ballasts "COULD" be the issue, but that is typically an "Electronics" or Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) issue. It impacts control boards and thermostats and other sensitive electronics.  There is no good way to isolate this....it is a matter of hunt and peck.  I can't resolve or understand a back feed from a faulty ballast turning on the overhead lights.  NOW, your overheads appear (from my limited knowledge of the prints) to be Dimmer Controlled.  Are they on FULL intensity or partially dimmed.  Put the Dimmer on FULL or BRIGHT.  Does that impact it.

Next....there should be (maybe) a slide switch on the side of the Fluorescent fixtures. TURN BOTH OFF. Then see if turning on the switch for them has any impact.

OK....the front. There is a print Back UP TV 38010042. That is near the beginning.  Look at it.  When you say "LIGHTS" come on....are you talking about some lights up front or the lights that are controlled by the HOUSE switches in the Galley. ALL the lights in the Galley area and on back are controlled by the two Salesman's Switches. There is a MAIN DC Fuse panel. The circuits for these lights are labeled. If the lights you are talking about are coming on when the CD and Backup Camera goes crazy, then those two items are NOT connected.

For starters....I would do the following.  Look behind the Battery Box(s). there should be THREE ground studs there and three large Negative Cables. Loosen the nuts....or take them off and clean and reconnect. That is the MAIN Chassis Ground for the two House Banks and the Chassis Bank. Often times, a ground, as you pointed out, will be the issue. 

There is a GROUND on the House Fuse Panel or near it.  Check that for tightness

There are TWO Grounds in the Front Genny area.  One is for the Ignition and the other for Accessories....That might not be what the print says or my memory.  Those TWO Grounds are connected via a cable to an Upfront Chassis Ground Stud....much like the rear one. There may be ONE or TWO cables. Find the Ground terminal Strips...  There are about 5 0r 6 terminals on each. TIghten ALL then the screws.  Chase the Cable and go back to where it goes to the Chassis and do the same that you did for the battery grounds. NOW, if you want to try an experiment. If there is a vacant terminal on either one, run a piece of #10 Stranded copper wire from the front run into the cockpit (Look on the driver's said up towards where the dash is....from the outside as you put you head under a bit). There is usually an AIR line coming out and it has the black spray foam to seal it. Take a long thing screwdriver and poke a hole and run the wire through that....or take it around the MH to the Driver's window that moves and bring it inside. Find the Ground to the instruments and put it on a terminal.....if that fixes the second issue, you know that the grounds are loose.  Some folks have run a secondary ground, like this one, permanently using the air hose area.

That's about all I can do. I do NOT think that you have any issues on the Salesman's switch. There MAY be two large solenoids up front. These are Ignition Controlled.  When you turn them ON....they provide power to all the "Chassis" Wiring.  They are NOT connected or involved with the Salesman's switch in the rear.  You "Lights" comment confuses me....and that is why I think it COULD be grounding. If either of these two solenoids were defective....and they HAVE FAILED....then you would have a lot more issue...

Good Luck....best I can do.  A Dynasty or higher wiring expert need to chime in...

I did change the title to include the year.

t 

ONE TEST....

[MyronTruex]

I must agree that the fluorescents should be upgraded when you figure out how to get the lens off and fixture out. 

 

The loss of power for your other issue sure sounds like a salesman solenoid acting up. That provides the Power versus your suspected ground issue.

Getting a voltmeter onto one of the devices that does not work when things are acting up is important. A simple 12-volt test light is even better. 

Finding a ground for the meter or test light can be difficult in any vehicle. You can run a piece of scrap wire to a known good ground or grab an extension cord and plug it in to any outlet. Then use the ground hole on the extension cord to connect your testing device.

I like test lights in situations like this because a voltmeter can trick you. 

If you do find power on any of the devices not working then you can figure out which side is ground by taking the bulb out for example and probing each pin connection. The test light will not come on when touching the ground side of course. 

To see if the ground is valid, connect your test light alligator clip via a scrap piece of wire to the positive post of the batteries. This will provide 12 volts to your test light and you can check if things are working by touching the probe to a good ground. It should light up.

Then with this 12 volt power source on the end of the probe, go to the fixture where you have the light bulb out of the socket. Touch each side of the connections for the bulb socket. IF the test light comes on brightly you have found the ground side/connection. 

[Tom Cherry]

6 minutes ago, myrontruex said:

I must agree that the fluorescents should be upgraded when you figure out how to get the lens off and fixture out. 

 

The loss of power for your other issue sure sounds like a salesman solenoid acting up. That provides the Power versus your suspected ground issue.

Getting a voltmeter onto one of the devices that does not work when things are acting up is important. A simple 12-volt test light is even better. 

Finding a ground for the meter or test light can be difficult in any vehicle. You can run a piece of scrap wire to a known good ground or grab an extension cord and plug it in to any outlet. Then use the ground hole on the extension cord to connect your testing device.

I like test lights in situations like this because a voltmeter can trick you. 

If you do find power on any of the devices not working then you can figure out which side is ground by taking the bulb out for example and probing each pin connection. The test light will not come on when touching the ground side of course. 

To see if the ground is valid, connect your test light alligator clip via a scrap piece of wire to the positive post of the batteries. This will provide 12 volts to your test light and you can check if things are working by touching the probe to a good ground. It should light up.

Then with this 12 volt power source on the end of the probe, go to the fixture where you have the light bulb out of the socket. Touch each side of the connections for the bulb socket. IF the test light comes on brightly you have found the ground side/connection. 

Your advice on trouble shooting is correct. 

However, his Dynasty (Sig/Exec/Nav wiring) has four solenoids.  Two are technically, operate off the single Salesman's switch.  We only have a single one.  The interior flourescent light issue is fed from the House Fuse box. It is a simple SWITCH.....and the overheads are on Dimmer Switches.  Our Flourescents operate off the Multiplex Output Relay box and the incandescent overheads off one of the two Muliplex diming modules.  His system is NOT a Multiplex like ours.  BTW, have you ever had issues with the 5 circuit breakers hidden behind the panel around the Intellitec units.  Some have.  I really need to get in there and tighten up all the connection behind there.  There is a LOT of stuff there.

The front has 2 soleonids....and they are ignition wired....where we have the big PCB upfront.  They feed several PCB or Fuse Panels (from the print....similar to the House distribution panel). The Backup camera is fed from the fuse panels or boards up there...which are fed from the Ignition Solenoids.  That is why his comment about "Lights" is confusing....as the "Interior Lights" are off the rear house panel.