Only 30 amps coming in and intellitec 750 clicking with GenSet power.

[Frank McElroy]

5 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

From the manual. 

If the generator is running, 120 VAC will be present at the L1 and L2 inputs and a +12 VDC signal will be present at J2 pin 2 on the Control Module. In this mode the energy management feature is disabled and all control relay contacts are closed, energizing all of the controlled loads. The Control Module sends a signal to the Display Module causing the load meter to display actual load current, the GEN SET service indicator to light, and all power status indicators to light.

Myron, you are correct.  I forgot that the Genny, no matter how underpowered or not 240 VAC is ASSUMED to have sufficient power for the needs of the Motor Home. BUT, there is also a fallacy there, in that the Genny's 35 Amp breaker...a two pole with 120 on each leg, could see or provide loads of 35 + 35 or 70 amps. We had one member overload his MH and had the HW50C DOWNSTREAM of the ATS....thus the Genny feed went through it.  He burned up the contactor, a FIRST, per Tommy Fannelli, the original owner and founder of Progressive.  

NOW that makes sense.  Late last night and too early this morning.

OK, if we go back to the very first post....then it appears that the EMS's display is not working...as he reported. The Gen Set light should have been on.  The ONLY thing that I might point out....  MM RV Tech, the paid Intellitec Tech Support (or were) says that the Remotes can act up or go bad. They are not like the Magnum remotes that retain settings.  They are just a "dumb" remote. The ONLY thing or action that they can control, via the 20/30 Current button is to SWITCH or tell the EMS which current is available.  

BrokenArrow has a new board on the way.  I guess we see.

Thanks...

 

The Intellitec installation manual was pretty clear on how Air Conditioning load shedding was to occur.  Basically, the AC thermostats were to be wired to the 12 volt relays 5 and 6.  Relays 1-4 are not FLA (Full Load Amp) relays and about the largest motor load they can safely switch is a refrigerator or washer/dryer.  I looked and the roof AC units on my coach even have connections for a load shed option.

Monaco elected not to install the two extra 12 volt wires and instead used the relays 1-4 to shed the AC units.  So, it's not surprising that they are failing.

As for the 50 amp load center heat, yes, that is an issue.  I know somewhere around model year 2007 on the dynasty and above coaches, both load center panel boxes were relocated from the rear closet to above the driver's side window.  They also ran an AC duct vent to the cabinet housing the electrical panels to cool them.  There is another AC duct vent in the entertainment cabinet to cool the equipment housed there.

[Tom Cherry]

6 hours ago, Martinvz said:

Tom, that is an interesting theory about having a load on each breaker. 
About a year ago I had to replace the Intellitec board and was informed by the tech I was working with that the a/c relays are normally closed so that the thermostat makes the on/off decision until the board needs to do load shedding. All the relays for the other breakers would be normally open until a load is applied. In our case it was a a/c relay that failed. 
Back to your theory, we do not have a washer/dryer installed even though it is plumbed for it. The specific breaker is always off. It is difficult for me to see how that one breaker/relay could cause the board failure. But then, what do I know. 
What this does emphasize is that I need the board to be rebuilt by M&M so that I have a woking spare.

EDIT

I lost my home pump this morning and started this response way earlier.  I just sat down to take a break and posted this.  I had NOT realized that Frank McElroy, whom I was discussing this with had done a premptive post....so, hopefully, we are saying the same thing....

Lori G and ALL OTHERS...

NOW....we are really getting interesting....and also DEEP.  There has been a LOT of comments made by a LOT of people with good electrical trouble shooting skills some WAY MORE ADVANCED than mine.

From the TOP.  The general "consensus" is that Monaco Cheated and did not run thermostat wires to the EMS.  I've looked at mine a few times, but it never acted up.  I have looked at my prints....as well as others and I BELIEVE that I have seen a print where Monaco actually DID have the AC Power going to the EMS thermostat loads.  NOW even that is getting FUZZY.  @Martinvz posted this earlier.....

About a year ago I had to replace the Intellitec board and was informed by the tech I was working with that the a/c relays are normally closed so that the thermostat makes the on/off decision until the board needs to do load shedding. All the relays for the other breakers would be normally open until a load is applied. In our case it was a a/c relay that failed. 

The above is correct...Monaco did NOT follow the recommended or required wiring.  The theory, postulated by many unhappy folks with EMS issues was....This will WORK for at least a year....no WARRANTY.  I talked to another wizard this morning and he cleared up a few facts....so this is WHY we have issues.

Look at the PRINT.  Intellitec says in the instruction manual to control the load shedding by the Thermostat low voltage wiring.  That is the terminals on the RIGHT....and are rated at 1A @ 24 VDC.  I THOUGHT that Monaco put the 120 AC there.  NOPE.  They used the four relays on the left.  NOW....the board says 15 Amp i HP rated.  I was told, but have not verified...but I trust the source, that the relays are NOT FLA (Full Load Amperage) rated for 15 Amps.  A motor starting....pulling the amps for the AC has a high "Inductive" or starting load....A resistance load like a dryer or water heater is just that....what the plate says.

The circuit breakers on the AC's are 20A, I believe.  When the AC first starts up, if you have an HW50C, you will see upwards of 17 -18 Amps.  Therefore these relays are "SWITCHING" on or OFF FLA power that is too high (too much current) for the relays.  I also looked at my Owner's manual and also the prints. 

Mine will load shed in the following order Water Heater (Aqua Hot); Rear AC; Washer/Dryer and Front AC. That means that Monaco labeled or chose to only do FOUR loads to shed.  Relays 5 and 6 are the low voltage AC thermostat....so mine, like everyone else....has the 20 amp breaker protected AC's on the AC relays....and NOT the DC Thermostats. 

It would have taken a little more wire to run the control wires properly.  NOW....to really add some fuel to this flame.....The Duotherm/Penguin AC's actually HAD a load shedding 12 VDC option.  That COULD have been wired or used with the Intellitec EMS.  It wasn't....

SO....that is what I now understand....and it has taken many years to fully get the whole, sordid story....and to understand the circuitry and be able to explain it.

Having SAID THAT....I have NO IDEA why all the breakers need to be ON.  Many folks without a Washer/Dryer have reported turning OFF the NOT USED breaker will make the EMS get hostile and go into a funk.  SO, there is still one mystery...but there is a confirmed or verified Cause and Effect relationship.

1 hour ago, Lolo1034 said:

Tom,

This is what my ATS is....bad??

IN A WORD.....YES.  Even with fully tightened lugs, it has been know to fail and have high resistance.  Scroll on page 1 to Chris Throgmartin's write up from his shop.  This NEEDS TO BE REPLACED.  It is a human safety issue....as well as a fire issue.....DO NOT USE IT ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY....

There are several writeup and threads on changing it out and recommendations.

[brokenarrow1244]

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

EDIT

I lost my home pump this morning and started this response way earlier.  I just sat down to take a break and posted this.  I had NOT realized that Frank McElroy, whom I was discussing this with had done a premptive post....so, hopefully, we are saying the same thing....

Lori G and ALL OTHERS...

NOW....we are really getting interesting....and also DEEP.  There has been a LOT of comments made by a LOT of people with good electrical trouble shooting skills some WAY MORE ADVANCED than mine.

From the TOP.  The general "consensus" is that Monaco Cheated and did not run thermostat wires to the EMS.  I've looked at mine a few times, but it never acted up.  I have looked at my prints....as well as others and I BELIEVE that I have seen a print where Monaco actually DID have the AC Power going to the EMS thermostat loads.  NOW even that is getting FUZZY.  @Martinvz posted this earlier.....

About a year ago I had to replace the Intellitec board and was informed by the tech I was working with that the a/c relays are normally closed so that the thermostat makes the on/off decision until the board needs to do load shedding. All the relays for the other breakers would be normally open until a load is applied. In our case it was a a/c relay that failed. 

The above is correct...Monaco did NOT follow the recommended or required wiring.  The theory, postulated by many unhappy folks with EMS issues was....This will WORK for at least a year....no WARRANTY.  I talked to another wizard this morning and he cleared up a few facts....so this is WHY we have issues.

Look at the PRINT.  Intellitec says in the instruction manual to control the load shedding by the Thermostat low voltage wiring.  That is the terminals on the RIGHT....and are rated at 1A @ 24 VDC.  I THOUGHT that Monaco put the 120 AC there.  NOPE.  They used the four relays on the left.  NOW....the board says 15 Amp i HP rated.  I was told, but have not verified...but I trust the source, that the relays are NOT FLA (Full Load Amperage) rated for 15 Amps.  A motor starting....pulling the amps for the AC has a high "Inductive" or starting load....A resistance load like a dryer or water heater is just that....what the plate says.

The circuit breakers on the AC's are 20A, I believe.  When the AC first starts up, if you have an HW50C, you will see upwards of 17 -18 Amps.  Therefore these relays are "SWITCHING" on or OFF FLA power that is too high (too much current) for the relays.  I also looked at my Owner's manual and also the prints. 

Mine will load shed in the following order Water Heater (Aqua Hot); Rear AC; Washer/Dryer and Front AC. That means that Monaco labeled or chose to only do FOUR loads to shed.  Relays 5 and 6 are the low voltage AC thermostat....so mine, like everyone else....has the 20 amp breaker protected AC's on the AC relays....and NOT the DC Thermostats. 

It would have taken a little more wire to run the control wires properly.  NOW....to really add some fuel to this flame.....The Duotherm/Penguin AC's actually HAD a load shedding 12 VDC option.  That COULD have been wired or used with the Intellitec EMS.  It wasn't....

SO....that is what I now understand....and it has taken many years to fully get the whole, sordid story....and to understand the circuitry and be able to explain it.

Having SAID THAT....I have NO IDEA why all the breakers need to be ON.  Many folks without a Washer/Dryer have reported turning OFF the NOT USED breaker will make the EMS get hostile and go into a funk.  SO, there is still one mystery...but there is a confirmed or verified Cause and Effect relationship.

IN A WORD.....YES.  Even with fully tightened lugs, it has been know to fail and have high resistance.  Scroll on page 1 to Chris Throgmartin's write up from his shop.  This NEEDS TO BE REPLACED.  It is a human safety issue....as well as a fire issue.....DO NOT USE IT ANY MORE THAN NECESSARY....

There are several writeup and threads on changing it out and recommendations.

Since reading a lot of information, i am curious which brand and model is the most suitable  to replace the Iota 50? I have watched some videos that select the ESCO LPT50BRD 50 amp as THE choice of replacements for Monaco Coach. They mention others are available and will work. The  RV Upgrade store will list the IOTA and replace it with the ESCO as it is NLA.  Thank you again, you guys are simply the best!

[Tom Cherry]

19 hours ago, brokenarrow1244 said:

Since reading a lot of information, i am curious which brand and model is the most suitable  to replace the Iota 50? I have watched some videos that select the ESCO LPT50BRD 50 amp as THE choice of replacements for Monaco Coach. They mention others are available and will work. The  RV Upgrade store will list the IOTA and replace it with the ESCO as it is NLA.  Thank you again, you guys are simply the best!

Biased as all get out.  But this has been a topic of a lot of discussion since the recall.  ESCO tech support says LOT50BRD.  They are a well known and reliable company. Their 60N switch was the “tank” of the simple ATS that Monaco used. It is 120 VAC coils and folks complain about the hum or buzz.  The LPT50BRD has a low voltage coil and their choice.  It is also field, as in replacement board or contactors.  No need to send it back.

Much written about it here,  read and search. I have posted detailed instructions on how to replace and how to install.

Good Luck.  Mine was put in over 10:years ago.  It has been in daily use at storage and we have camped at least over 20 months in it.  

[JohnC3]

Mine already had the 50BRD. I Replaced it with the same when it burned out a relay trying to switch with the ACs on. It is rather flexible, All my AC connections came from one side and this was one of the few that could accommodate that.  This is well labeled and pretty quiet. 

John

[brokenarrow1244]

Looking at the available products that all carry the basic same Model # LPT50BRD.

Trying to determine what is the difference in ESCO and Elkhart. I can find some information that specifically states dc coils and some that does not even mention the coils.

I believe the coils are important as to quiet operation. Also big differences in pricing, up to 100.00 variation for the same item!!

What are your thoughts? Anything to avoid?

[Martinvz]

Read the topic below that is specifically answers your questions. It is long but it is specific.

 

[brokenarrow1244]

Thank you, lots of very valuable information there. It is a long read.

I have been reviewing the install instructions and configuration of wiring. Interesting that none of the instructions I can locate identify proper torque/ or required torque readings. They surely identify the need for proper installation of the LPT50BRD.

I looked into another brand WFCO T57. That one does specify 35inch lbs of torque. I believe most of the information I have reviewed lends to apply 45 inch lbs on Periodic Maintenence . Some are simply saying as tight as you can. My training and background cause me to seek specific values of torque.

Any comments or suggestions or source to see it printed out?

[Tom Cherry]

54 minutes ago, brokenarrow1244 said:

Thank you, lots of very valuable information there. It is a long read.

I have been reviewing the install instructions and configuration of wiring. Interesting that none of the instructions I can locate identify proper torque/ or required torque readings. They surely identify the need for proper installation of the LPT50BRD.

I looked into another brand WFCO T57. That one does specify 35inch lbs of torque. I believe most of the information I have reviewed lends to apply 45 inch lbs on Periodic Maintenence . Some are simply saying as tight as you can. My training and background cause me to seek specific values of torque.

Any comments or suggestions or source to see it printed out?

Purchase a tube of Loctite GREEN. Put that on the screw of each terminal. If you have a calibrated inch pound torque wrench.  I do, but I use the common sense one.  Find a good hand filling screwdriver.  Get a “red” or “blue” cloth  shop towel, the kind a MECHANIC always had in his back pocket.  Put 2 wraps around the handle.  Then when you tighten the screws, use your left hand to PUSH hard on the screwdriver to keep the blade in the slot.  Use all your hand and arm strength and tighten them. I was Director of Quality for an assembly plant and the average male with good hand and arm strength can put up to 45 inch pound…probably closer to 40.  The NEC spec varies….typically 35-45.  So, you are good to go.  The only difficulty in using an inch pound wrench is it is not suited for slotted screw, so it tends to cam out,  but if you use the push down method, the reading is prone to errors.  I have used this technique for years and assisted one NHTSA recall company put it in their instructions …which their engineers tested…and said…OK.

the other tip is to tighten up all three conductors on each cable.  Then go back and wiggle or pull on them.  Then retighten.  Then I do a random tightening.  The Loctite Green will do the rest.  Every 3 years or so…retighten.  The GREEN Is approved for electrical work in vibration environments.  Remember to use the Green on the ground and retighten.

[JohnC3]

When I installed myline. I found the screws on the terminal block to be a little soft. You can strip them with a Phillips screw driver if you crank down on them. I would have preferred slotted screws, but that's just me.

[Tom Cherry]

7 hours ago, JohnC3 said:

When I installed myline. I found the screws on the terminal block to be a little soft. You can strip them with a Phillips screw driver if you crank down on them. I would have preferred slotted screws, but that's just me.

If the screws are Phillips. Then do not use a pointed Phillips screwdriver or bit.  Find one that is slightly flat on the end.  Sometimes the Phillips recess will be “headed” or formed with a worn recess punch.  The pointed end of a screwdriver will hit and not allow the four “ears” to properly contact or engage the recess.  

if they are the combo slot/Phillips, I only use the slotted recess

Odds are that the terminal screw is a 8-32 or maybe a 10-32 X 3/8”.  They should have a flat point and not be a cup or tapered style (like an Allen).  In a pinch, you can order replacements from Amazon or perhaps find the locally at a hardware store. A Torx recess button head SS would work well as long as it has a flat point to contact the stranded #6 wire.  This is a bit from memory as the screw just flattens out the stranded wire which you insert in the terminal below. It has been a while since I installed mine.  Even a screw slightly longer as long as it did not stick up too far would do.