Brake Lights not working

[Tom Cherry]

10 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Ken, for the brake lights not to work BOTH air pressure switches would have had to fail.  On a wiring diagram I have for a 2006 Endeavor, both of these pressure switches feed a Bosch relay called brake relay.  I'm not sure where you would find this relay but it should be very close to the trailer brake relay.  Either of these relays will turn on the brake lights.  Have you already verified that the brake relay is good?

Frank and I spent a LOT of time on this topic and he pulled a lot of prints.  You might go to the 08 Knight topic and also read my last post.  The two Nason 3 Wire switches are actually "In Parallel".  So, if one failed.....then the OTHER one would work.  The OP with the 08 Knight swapped his switches.  Presumably....as he did not state, he PROBABLY swapped the wiring harnesses as well.  THUS, swapping the switch wires actually cleaned up the contacts and he now has a good circuit.  I did a write up on how to clean the terminals and make them more bullet proof.  This is NOT difficult. You MIGHT not have a switch issue as it is....just a corroded mating plug.  Certainly worth a try.

The two Relays in the LEFT upper corner of the drawing are what Frank suggested.  If you SWAP them and you have Brake Lights....then, ODDS ARE....you have a bad relay. The one on the LEFT is the Brake Light Relay.  If that relay is BAD....it ain't gonna work.  Your comment about the Manual Lever working is not really germane.  That works off the same Line as the Mechanical Brake Switch OVER or above the Brake Pedal....on the INSIDE.  SO that is not, most likely, the issue.

Swap the Relays.  If you have Brakes Lights NORMALLY, then the relay that you put into the Trailer (Left) side) is BAD....get a new one...

Good Luck....

BTW....BOTH of the Nason Switches on the Brake Valve Treadle are in Parallel.  If you go to the OTHER thread, that switch is listed there.  Yours uses BOTH circuits....so if you can't get up there to trouble shoot and such....then order BOTH.  Cheaper.  BUT, even a NEW switch will sometimes NOT work if the Female Connector is corroded.  Case in point.  A new Step Controller was installed under warranty.  BUT, the connections were flaky.  Drove it home.  NO WORK.  Pulled the connectors (new part) out....cleaned and used the NoAlox (see the other post) and the dielectric grease.  Been 8 years and NO issues.

Good Luck.  Let us know what works and what you finally do.  

[Cubflyer]

14 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

  Either of these relays will turn on the brake lights.  Have you already verified that the brake relay is good?

Frank,

I'm away from the coach at the moment (7 hrs)... but when I was trouble shooting this 'inop coach brake lights', I was able to operate my coach and tow dolly lights with my exhaust brake switch or my brake controller.  The coach brake lights and the trailer/dolly brake lights were only inop when stepping on the brake pedal, also when I first hit the pedal, sometimes the coach and the trailer lights would just turn on for an instant (blink and you would miss it). 

So what you are saying about the coach brake light relay and the trailer brake light relay makes sense that both of my pedal switches have failed.  As a side note I have had issues with my ABS that does not show any faults yet the ABS light is on.  So maybe my ABS also has a relationship to those switches.  In the next month or so I will be able to fix this problem.... and maybe even my ABS...!

Ken

Thanks Tom, 

I appreciate your input, it will be a while before I can get back to this problem, but when I do, I will use your counsel.  Yes, bad connections can give electrons fits!

Ken

[Frank McElroy]

22 minutes ago, Cubflyer said:

Frank,

I'm away from the coach at the moment (7 hrs)... but when I was trouble shooting this 'inop coach brake lights', I was able to operate my coach and tow dolly lights with my exhaust brake switch or my brake controller.  The coach brake lights and the trailer/dolly brake lights were only inop when stepping on the brake pedal, also when I first hit the pedal, sometimes the coach and the trailer lights would just turn on for an instant (blink and you would miss it). 

So what you are saying about the coach brake light relay and the trailer brake light relay makes sense that both of my pedal switches have failed.  As a side note I have had issues with my ABS that does not show any faults yet the ABS light is on.  So maybe my ABS also has a relationship to those switches.  In the next month or so I will be able to fix this problem.... and maybe even my ABS...!

Ken

Thanks Tom, 

I appreciate your input, it will be a while before I can get back to this problem, but when I do, I will use your counsel.  Yes, bad connections can give electrons fits!

Ken

Yes if both pressure switches failed there would be no brakes lights.  BUT if the relay energized only by the service brakes failed you would also have no brake lights.  This is NOT the same relay that the trailer brake controller or exhaust brake switch relay uses to turn on the brake lights.  In effect a bad relay that gets energized by either pressure switch would have exactly the same symptom as having both pressure switches failing yet the trailer brake controller and engine brake would turn on the rear brake lights just fine.  At least this is how a 2006 Endeavor is wired. 

Do you have a set of wiring diagrams for your coach?

[Tom Cherry]

39 minutes ago, Cubflyer said:

Frank,

I'm away from the coach at the moment (7 hrs)... but when I was trouble shooting this 'inop coach brake lights', I was able to operate my coach and tow dolly lights with my exhaust brake switch or my brake controller.  The coach brake lights and the trailer/dolly brake lights were only inop when stepping on the brake pedal, also when I first hit the pedal, sometimes the coach and the trailer lights would just turn on for an instant (blink and you would miss it). 

So what you are saying about the coach brake light relay and the trailer brake light relay makes sense that both of my pedal switches have failed.  As a side note I have had issues with my ABS that does not show any faults yet the ABS light is on.  So maybe my ABS also has a relationship to those switches.  In the next month or so I will be able to fix this problem.... and maybe even my ABS...!

Ken

Thanks Tom, 

I appreciate your input, it will be a while before I can get back to this problem, but when I do, I will use your counsel.  Yes, bad connections can give electrons fits!

Ken

SORT OF.  If BOTH switches FAILED....then YES.  But ONE would have had to have failed....and the other one carried the load.  Before I went to the switches as Frank said, I would swap the relays.  That is the simplest.  THEN....before I pulled things apart, I would actually plug and unplug the switches.....and use the cleaning technique that I outlined in the other post.  That means you have a good connection.  THEN, unless you have other problems....YES....both switches.

I noticed something on the picture and called it out to Frank.  Look at the bottom wiring harness.  FORGOT to mention it....You have had a VIBRATION and worn into the copper wiring.  LOOK CLOSELY....there are WHITE spots on the bottom two wires.  You need to INSPECT the wiring.  If you have partially gnawed the wiring, all bets are off.  Check ALL 6 wires.  If some are chafed and you do NOT see Copper.....then put a dot of silicone sealer or RTV rubber and a piece of tape.  BUT, a wire that has worn into the copper is suspect.  You can install a NEW BUTT SPLICE (use a ratcheting crimper) on each wire.  THEN you know you have a good connection. Look at the wires on the top.  You also need to use zip ties and prevent them from rubbing ....presumably on the black bar or bracket or whatever is behind them.

Lots of things to fix or repair or try.....then SWITCHES....

[Cubflyer]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

LOOK CLOSELY....there are WHITE spots on the bottom two wires.  You need to INSPECT the wiring.  If you have partially gnawed the wiring, all bets are off. 

Thanks, Tom, yes I did see those wires' insulation, they actually look like someone (prior to me) cut the insulation to expose them (maybe for test??)  I will be checking everything I can before I dive into those switches.  I am very experienced in electrical systems, switches, relays, etc  (50 years as an A&P mechanic)

 

2 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

Do you have a set of wiring diagrams for your coach?   

Please Frank, if you can find me a wiring diagram for a 2003 Holiday Rambler Endeavor PST that would be super!

Thanks,

Ken

[Frank McElroy]

2 hours ago, Cubflyer said:

Please Frank, if you can find me a wiring diagram for a 2003 Holiday Rambler Endeavor PST that would be super!

Thanks,

Ken

Ken - If our Downloads section we have a lot of wiring diagrams on file.  However, the only set of wiring diagrams close to the model year of your coach that we have are from a 2006 (link below).  If you look closely, the picture I posted previously was taken from that file. 

Actually, I don't know if the brake light circuit is the same as yours but it should be fairly straight forward for you to find out when looking at the wiring diagram and compare it with the fuses and relays in your coach.

If you didn't receive a set of wiring diagrams when you purchased the coach, maybe someone with a 2003 Diplomat or Endeavor will post an electronic copy of their wiring diagrams.  If you are able to find a set of wiring diagrams either online or in your coach's documentation, please upload them to our files.

 

[Yoaks5]

I am also having brake light Issues on my 06 Navigator. My toad and engine brake lights work as they should but I have no brakes lights on the RV.

I attached the page for the tail lights from my schematics (my full schematics are in the down loads sections but hopping these are a bit clearer). A picture of my brake light switches and also attaching the schematics that @K7JV made for his 06 Dynasty which I believe are the same as my Nav. They are much clearer and easier to follow than my factory ones (at least for me, a big thank you Jim V for posting these). Jim's actually have the correct wire colors on them and my factory ones don't. 

So far I have tested both brake light switches continuity and both switches passed. If I'm reading the diagrams correctly (unlikely) with the key on and the brake peddle pushed down I should have 12v+ on the switches. I don't, but if I attach one end of the meter to 12 volt positive and touch the switch leads with key on and brake applied I get 12 volts? So these switches are working off of ground to turn them on? Is this correct? 

Also switched both relays ( FRB Panel 16-k4 and RRB panel 2-K4) with others and no change. Also took them off and tested by applying power to them and they worked fine as far as I can tell. 

Only thing I can find that is off is, I have 12V+ going into FRB -J4-1 (power to relay 16-K4 that is the purple one in the picture of my front run bay. I also switched this with one from the RRB with no change) but only 2v at FRB 16-j4-3 (power out of the relay). I also have the same thing on the relay for the engine brake FRB 8-K3. 12+ going in but only 2v+ coming out. However the brake light did come on with the use of the engine brake just not with the brake pedal. 

FYI in Jim's schematic he calls them the front run panel and rear run panel. Also Monaco labeled my boards 1-15 you can see this on the labels. So in Jim's schematic the only board that Monaco didn't label is the one with the purple repay attached and he called that 16 which makes sense to me. 

Let me know your thought on this as I'm stumped!

 

06 HR Nav brake light schematics.pdf Layout - Front Run Panel (Front 3).pdf Schematic - Brake Lights.pdf

[Yoaks5]

After a lot more testing and head scratching I think I found my problem. 

My front run bay has had water in it. Hoping I have it stopped now but I had to replace some of the bottom PCBs last year. I took most of the boards out and cleaned them up and replaced the bad ones that I could find. 

This new problem is on the J connectors (see pic) that are on the front side top of my FRB. Looks like this one had water in it also. 

Any one know how to get the metal connector that goes on the end of the wire out of the J plug? And how to reattach it or replace it. 

[Scotty Hutto]

This requires a tool called a Deutsch removal tool. You can find them at many automotive stores, Amazon, or online. Pro tip: the tool releases the catch holding the pin from “behind” - you still need something to push the pin out from the “front”.  Here’s a link to an inexpensive plastic one:

https://www.delcity.net/store/Contact-Removal-Tools/p_824370.h_824360.r_IF1003?utm_term=&identifiers=pla-4577885387334982&Campaign=Shopping - Catchall&CampaignId=445029913&AdGroup=Catchall&AdGroupId=1188573056390575&AdId=74286034062410&Network=s&msclkid=ea3ef3e9ce3e17cc41f297d1f8f630e7&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping - Catchall&utm_content=Catchall

You can buy the Deutsch connector pins at places like Amazon or Mouser (or your local electronics store, if you still have one!) I can’t advise on the exact info because I can’t tell the size from the pic!

[Yoaks5]

Thanks for the info Scotty!

After looking at it with a magnifying glass I was able to see it's an Amp connector and I ordered this tool from Amazon 

Jonard R-5926 Pin Extractor, 16-20 Contact Size, 3" Length https://a.co/d/7ABzrW8

and was able to get the burnt one out. Unfortunately the connector is pretty damaged (burnt) so I had to order a new connector (part number stamped on it) and some pins. From the look of it I'm guessing my brake lights have been intermittent for quite awhile. I'll be really glad to get this issue fixed.

 

[Cubflyer]

Update for everyone...

Although Kevin and I both had the same problem, coach brake lights inop, we had different reasons for the failure..... Kevin with broken/burnt wires... good find!

My 2003 Endeavor's problem was that both switches at the brake pedal pressure valve were bad (well, at least I changed them both) and replacing them solved my no brake light problem.  The reason for this 'late update' is because after winterizing my coach and having it parked outside until April.

When I finally had a place to work on it, I found that setting a 'baker scaffold' up spanning  the open generator door gave me a way of actually reaching the switches for replacement.  Once I had access, it was a straight foward change out.  Even though the original switches had three wires, only two wires per switch were used, so my two wire N.O. switches (under $20 each) hooked up and fit perfectly and operation checked great!

Thanks Ivan and DennisZ for sending me on an alternate switch search!

Edited June 29, 2023 by Cubflyer
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