Electrical EMS

[Joel Sheriff]

I understand Tom but I still have to get under the bed to trace the line he used. That's an ordeal to cut thru the bed bar or platform.  I'll let you know when I'm there.  What do you mean "sneekcircuit".

[Tom Cherry]

35 minutes ago, Joel Sheriff said:

I understand Tom but I still have to get under the bed to trace the line he used. That's an ordeal to cut thru the bed bar or platform.  I'll let you know when I'm there.  What do you mean "sneekcircuit".

I also understand.  But you are blowing a lighting circuit. The fuse panel says your EMS should be on fuse 14. If you have prints look at them.  You have to restore power to the EMS to use your AC and W/D & electric elements in the water heater.  Until you find the ADDITIONAL, I think, blown fuse, then you will not restore the EMS

NOW there is a possibility, as I said, that the downstream 3 amp fuse on the actual EMS BLEW

It is your call and priority.  I do not think from similar prints that the dead short in the lighting (can’t recall the number… 3 or 4), will restore the EMS

Again, this is a mystery.  The SNEAK circuit term means a sneaky and highly suspicious circuit was put in place and sometimes the results are not good

you said the tech kept probing and found power.  That is not the acceptable way.  If you hunt and peck and find power, it should have been traced back to the fuse or supply.  He should have told you which line and which fuse and you could have put a sticky note or a piece of masking tape identifying it

if he put an inline fuse under the bed as you speculated, then how were you supposed to replace it if the actuator was closed?

All I am doing is giving you the most likely scenarios and the causes and the need for a standardized installation with notes or labels

you decide how to proceed but understand that there maybe two problems and fixing the lighting circuit, unless someone else butchered the fuse panel, will probably not fix the EMS.  If it does, then the circuits are not what Monaco would have wired in the factory 

That is the danger of quick field fixes and sneak circuits as there is no documentation and the next tech has to spend considerable time in determining just “how and why” they were done

let us know how you proceed as the factory wiring and prints don’t tie the two issues together 

 

 

[Joel Sheriff]

I agree but when he put in the accuator he did identify fuse 5 as the power supplying the actuator. I have to check the 14 fuse as suggested. If I can get the board shed powered I can live with that the under bed unless a true short, I'm not giving a priority.  Thanks will post results

Edited October 30, 2022 by Joel Sheriff

[Tom Cherry]

Joel,

Since this is actually a combined issue and it flips and flops back and forth, it gets confusing.  I also reread all your posts.....some a few times.  So here goes.  Past this, you need to get a tech out.  I also pulled your drawings this morning and Monaco did not "tell" anyone WHERE the EMS board is getting power from.  I assume since you have been replacing fuses and your past comments on other topics that you do not have or feel comfortable using a VOM.  Therefore, if this doesn't resolve it or no one jumps in, then suggest you get a Tech....

EMS FIRST.  Disconnect from SHORE.  Go up front and trip the Generator Circuit Breaker so that it will NOT start.  Myron told you to do some things like disconnect battery and use the salesman's switch. Don't know if you did, but this is what to do.

Remove Fuses 13, 14, 17 and 22.  Note the AMPERAGE.  EVEN IF THEY LOOK GOOD.....you need to purchase new ones....of the right amperage.  You are going to replace them with NEW ONES.  NEXT UP...

Remove the 4 or 6 screws that hold on the brown(?) cover to the main electrical panel.  Lift it off.  Look to the LOWER RIGHT or maybe immediate RIGHT and you will see a printed circuit board with at least 3 harnesses or bundles and also a 3 (memory) Amp fuse. My recommendation is that you purchase a 3A fuse and just replace it. 

Remove the plugs or the pigtails from the module or the PCB.  They only fit in ONE place and one way.  Take a picture FIRST.  

Remove the 3 Amp fuse.  Look at IT.  Does it LOOK OK?  If it is blown, then that would explain a lot.  BUT, REGARDLESS,, NOW go BUY ONE.....maybe 2 or 3.  That will also give the MH time to let the EMS "rest".....like turning off your computer during a RESET.....  Don't forget to buy the FOUR replacement fuses also

OK....Reverse ORDER

Replace the FOUR fuses that you pulled with the NEW ones.

Put back of the wires or the pigtails onto the EMS.  Then the 3 Amp Fuse.  That is the way I WOULD DO IT.  

Reinstall the cover on the Electrical Panel.

Turn Back ON the Genny breaker.

Plug back into the Pedestal.  See if that fixes it.  

NOW....here is WHAT MAY, and we have seen this before, HAPPENED.  When the EMS was "upset" and shed the AC and started clicking, it scrambled its brain.  The power to the EMS MUST be killed and it allowed to "drain off any stored energy".  Sometimes that takes a few minutes....othertimes....more.  If you did not successfully kill the power, then the EMS is still addled.  Once you totally KILL the power, it should come to LIFE.

The issue is that if you had a test light or a VOM, you could put it on the POWER pin and see if there is 12 VDC coming in.  But, will assume that the new fuses are NOT Blown and Monaco is not exactly forthcoming (I went over 50 prints for your MH) with info.

NOW, the very next question....why does it WORK with the Genny.  This is my theory after reading a lot and also looking at the info that Monaco DID provide.  When the Generator is running, there is a 12 VDC power lead to the Genny's Hourmeter.  That is USED to signal or tell the EMS that the Generator is on.  SO, they used that Hour Meter power for TWO purposes.  When the power was being fed into the EMS, I THINK that also powered the BOARD.  That is what you called..."Coming to LIFE" one time. 

That is all that I can do.....others may have more insight....but if it does NOT work, then a tech needs to look at it and see if it is getting power.  If it does get power, since it works with the Genny....a blown fuse or an upstream (Fuse 12; 14; 17 or 22?).....or some OTHER one....that only a tech can use a tracing tool to chase down.

ACTUATOR.

You originally implied that the installer grabbed a positive and a negative.  You just stated last night that it was Fuse 5.  Had that been included, then that would have narrowed down the trouble shooting. 

Turn OFF the Fluorescent fixtures UP FRONT that do NOT work.  Use the side switches to do that.  If it is ONE and the Ballast has shorted out, then it could very well be the DEAD SHORT that is  blowing the fuse. (5).  The Puck Lights are incandescent and UNLESS there was a chaffed wire, when a bulb blows....it is the bulb and will NOT short. 

Also TURN OFF the PUCK light Switch....the one that does NOT work.

Here is where I am confused.  Do you have a THREE WAY switch for the front flourescent light?  I did not understand WHY there was, a switch in the rear.....which is where the tech grabbed the power.  Is you have two switches....and each will turn on or off a single fixture....then, remotely.....or rarely a switch could go bad.

OK....the front Fluorescent side switch on the fixture is OFF.  The PUCK switch is OFF.  Try a new fuse in position 5.  Dead SHORT....then flip one of the 3 way switches on the Fluorescent.  If it still blows.....GAME OVER.

Call in a tech and let his trouble shoot this.

IF you have a tech out.....and he will undoubtedly pull off the cover for the AC panel.  Have him do a visual inspection on the circuit breakers and reseat (not the 50) every one.  Takes less than 15 seconds.  THEN have him tighten or test EVERY screw for a loose connection.  That will take maybe 10 mintues.....and that is something that needs to be done every few years. 

Hope this resolves it and also gives you some insight,.....,Let us know what happens... 

 

[Joel Sheriff]

Tom very thorough and doable. I ordered a box of fuses from Amazon here today I have a tech coming out tomorrow. You are spot on with everything you said and I'm going to go through that with the tech assuming he's not as knowledgeable as you on this area. Nice guy but limited.  I will do all your steps and I can't thank you enough for all the time you put into this.  If anyone has to add fine but I will not be posting until solved I have enough to go on. Again thanks all for the advise... Joel 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Joel Sheriff said:

Tom very thorough and doable. I ordered a box of fuses from Amazon here today I have a tech coming out tomorrow. You are spot on with everything you said and I'm going to go through that with the tech assuming he's not as knowledgeable as you on this area. Nice guy but limited.  I will do all your steps and I can't thank you enough for all the time you put into this.  If anyone has to add fine but I will not be posting until solved I have enough to go on. Again thanks all for the advise... Joel 

10-4   Have at it.  He should be able to determine if there is incoming power.  I will PM you the manual on the EMS so you have it.  If NO incoming power, then tone out the power wire....and fix.  

If power, then resetting it or total shutdown is the usual fix.

If NOT.....then he can contact M&M RV in Ohio City, OH.  They are the tech support for Intellitec.  That's it.  YES, we have had them fail.  But, many times it is things, like many say, that CB are off.  We have had ONE issue where an AC did "upset" one....and it acted the same.  But that was a failure of the AC.  If yours is fixed, probably not an issue...

Good Luck....

[TomV48]

Just a thought on chasing problems.  The rule of thumb for trailer hook up was always CHECK THE GROUND.  That meant ground line between tow and trailer. But I had a similar ghost in our DP.   Everything on the "Salesman Switch" or house power switch at the door as you enter was hinky every time the water pump cycled on.  That pump would then chirp and labor to get back to pressure shut off.  Water pump company said there must be air in a line making it hard to come firmly back to cut off pressure.

The prior owner replaced the water pump and then put the perfectly good one in a box for me.  The problem was easy when you looked the right place.  Contacts on the Ratcheting relay (yes ratcheting not full time load relay that some of you have) was burning hot to the touch.   The ground on the relay was soooo loose that it is miracle that anything was working and it hadn't been a fire.   Tightened up the lugs, repaired and replaces all the connectors from that relay to the the water bay and no more problem.   I had the same problem on a Toy Hauler with a poor connection on the main ground leg from the battery to the frame.  Again really bad ground and probably got that way from corrosion and the passage of time and then one day stuff started to act up and malfunction.  Sad thing is the Volt meter is only a tiny draw so it will not cause the problem to occur so all looks normal.  Just a thought where the ghosts can live in electrical.  Chase the ground

Edited November 2, 2022 by TomV48

[Joel Sheriff]

Tom, et al, to put a lid on this topic, 10 minutes before the tech came in I was going to assist with time saving measures meaning I was going to do the simple unplug, shut the genny breaker, close down the main power and pull the fuses. Upon taking off the EMS brown cover I saw the (3amp) 5 Amp fuse in my ems right on front. It looked OK but did ad Tom said replace anyway. That was my first task and upon replacement the board Lit up like a XMas tree, all shed lites on as well as all power restored.  Tom I'm very grateful for your time and research effort on my behalf and only wish future issues are this simple. I replaced and am replacing my fuses with ones that glow if blown. Idiot fuses for an idiot.  This forum is so helpful and thanks all for their input again.  I can't tell you how much over the years you all have taught me about Rv's. Have a wonderful day and holiday season. 

Just a thought, for future reference. The Intellect indicator light was on in the bottom left corner. I pulled the fuses the light went out. I replaced the fuse the light went back on and the shed lights worked. No more than 3 min elapsed is it possible that just that fuse reset the system? Just thought for people who may have to reset the EMS down the road. To try that fuse first!  

[96 EVO]

Good to hear!

That's the fuse I thought you were looking at days ago 😉!

[Joel Sheriff]

Just a thought, for future reference. The Intellect indicator light was on in the bottom left corner. I pulled the fuses the light went out. I replaced the fuse the light went back on and the shed lights worked. No more than 3 min elapsed is it possible that just that fuse reset the system? Just thought for people who may have to reset the EMS down the road. To try that fuse first!  

 

The fuse I was initially looking at was the 15 Amp in the closet box #5 down. That's the short issue with the bed. Tom brought the 3amp to my attention the other day in inside the Intellec box

Edited November 3, 2022 by Joel Sheriff

[96 EVO]

I would say that fuse would be the second thing to check. The one time my EMS got confused, a simple reboot of the entire coach power (both 120 &12v), set it straight!

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Joel Sheriff said:

Just a thought, for future reference. The Intellect indicator light was on in the bottom left corner. I pulled the fuses the light went out. I replaced the fuse the light went back on and the shed lights worked. No more than 3 min elapsed is it possible that just that fuse reset the system? Just thought for people who may have to reset the EMS down the road. To try that fuse first!  

 

The fuse I was initially looking at was the 15 Amp in the closet box #5 down. That's the short issue with the bed. Tom brought the 3amp to my attention the other day in inside the Intellec box

Here is WHAT I think is going on.  Monaco did STRANGE things.  SOMETIMES the Salesman Switch was wired so that it killed power to the Fuse Distribution Box.  If so, then everytime you killed the power via the Salesman's switch.....BINGO....the EMS lost POWER....It shut down and rebooted.

BUT, there are also, and I believe this is ONE, a separate feed....should be a FUSE somewhere.  If it is NOT on the Salesman Switch Solenoid.....the EMS is NEVER gonna reboot due to a reset.  My GUESS.  Joel's is that way.  SO, unless he isolated the MAIN feed to the EMS module....it never shut down.

The 3 Amp FUSE is the Circuit Board power connection.  My advice was to have a GOOD ONE....Just in case.  USUALLY, but without a lot of info, just pulling it will reset it and all is well.  The CLICKING and OMG issues when the Front AC went crazy was the final clue.  

What took time was to sort out the TWO issues.  The Fuse 5 SHORT.....and the EMS acting up.  They were NOT, in my opinion, remotely located or had a cause and effect on each other.

NOW....remember if the EMS goes south.....TEST with the Genny.  I LEARNED something also.....that a cranky and crotchety EMS that refuses to work on normal 120 Shore....will be just FINE on the Genny.....and there has to be a reason....but if I figured it out....then I could open up an M&M....so leave it alone.

It is NOW fixed....and if it gets whacky.....pull fuse and reset it...

GOOD JOB.  

Joel, let us know how the Actuator is fixed....then that will close out this project.....  Thanks,

[Joel Sheriff]

I did respond with a final outcome I hoped it posted. There were so many great responses and after some thorough research on Tom's and many other responses I got the issue resolved. If need be I can post again the final outcome. Thanks all again for saving my butt and a lot of money. 

[Joel Sheriff]

To help finalize this long thread, my 15amp fuse in the back closet that was shorting the bed actuator is done.  After some travel and movement of the slide, I tried the fuse again and it didn't short. I got the actuator to raise and I found the wires crimped in the slide mechanism.  Cut, sliced and tapped the wires and disconnected the actuator.  Stupid me it was a 110 hookup made an extension to plug in only to fry the motor of a12v actuator.  $46 mistake but livable. Buying another actuator 12v with a converter to 110 to use an external plug unless someone has an easy way of finding a 12v power wire near the bed to eliminate the converter.  Again folks, this site has educated and afforded me invaluable information I'm very grateful. 

[jacwjames]

1 hour ago, Joel Sheriff said:

To help finalize this long thread, my 15amp fuse in the back closet that was shorting the bed actuator is done.  After some travel and movement of the slide, I tried the fuse again and it didn't short. I got the actuator to raise and I found the wires crimped in the slide mechanism.  Cut, sliced and tapped the wires and disconnected the actuator.  Stupid me it was a 110 hookup made an extension to plug in only to fry the motor of a12v actuator.  $46 mistake but livable. Buying another actuator 12v with a converter to 110 to use an external plug unless someone has an easy way of finding a 12v power wire near the bed to eliminate the converter.  Again folks, this site has educated and afforded me invaluable information I'm very grateful. 

I used an old piece of extension cord and ran it from my passenger side rear electrical bay.  I pushed it through one of the existing holes.  I then ran it through the ~3" tubing that goes from side to side, this is what supports the rear cap,  This came out under the closet drivers side.  There was a hole with other wires that had the black foam seal around the wires.  I used a piece of coat hanger, taped the end of the extension cord on it and pushed it through the foam.  In my closet there was a plastic bin that was recessed into the closet floor, I remove that and pulled the cord through.  All the other wires were routed to under the bed, some 12 volt and 120 volt, just pulled the end of the extension cord into the same area under the bed. 

I used a fuse and attached the extension cord onto the buss bar type connector on the passenger side and connected to the control box for the Actuator. 

I had installed an actuator with wireless control, worked great until earlier this year and then quite.  So I just removed the control box for the actuator and installed a reversing switch, mounted at the foot of the bed.  My wife doesn't like it as well but I already had the switch and just had to figure out how to install. 

When I first installed the actuator I was concerned how to open the bed if the actuator railed so I also installed a hitch pin with a small cable going to the opposite side,  I was able to use this to release the actuator from the bottom of the bed to be able to lift it and repair the wiring issue.   

Edited November 26, 2022 by jacwjames

[MyronTruex]

Not clear on your wiring path but the closet being so close should provide all the 12 volts you need. Of course you have to deal with the movement of the wires but find the path of the existing ones and follow those.