Turbo Dropping Out - VGT Air Actuated

[Bill R]

Thank you for all the input on filter performance and orientation.  I will keep the current orientation, and will report back what I find out on what the current inlet/outlet size adjustments I will need to make. 

[Guest Ray Davis]

16 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Well, I think you've done permanent damage to my few remaining brain cell's , but your right! On a pleated filter, should be the same area inside & outside.

Still think the filter would work better flowing outside to in thou. Larger particles would drop off the media to the bottom of the can.

Inside to outside flow, every particle is blocking the media.

That's funny, I like it.  Now, even though the inside & outside area may be essentually equal. IIRC the pleats are more open on the outside & practically touching each other on the inside surface.  It seems the outside offers freer air flow for a longer period & perhaps not require replacement as often.      On the other hand I may be over thinking the subject which I admittedly am not equipped to do.

[Happycarz]

My air filter inlet hose, dropping down from the intake grille, was about 18” too long and swung below the inlet of the air filter, creating a J hook affect.  My first modification was to trim the excess, as the first picture shows. 
 

 

Then I thought I could streamline it more. I reversed the air filter flow and now have the drop down hose enter the air filter from directly above with no bends by moving the air filter outboard.  I bought a 90° elbow and 6” of metal duct to connect two rubber pieces.
Intakehoses.com

Did it help any? Who knows? I would assume it would help only if it were starving for air.  And, I don’t think it ever had that issue.
Does it look better? Certainly.

 

[Bill R]

1 hour ago, Happycarz said:

Does it look better?

Thanks Harry for the pics and optional install design.  I've learned quickly that everything you do "looks better".

[Happycarz]

Bill,

Thank you for the kind words. 
 

Remember the old BASF TV commercial?:  “We don’t make it, we make it better.”  
Well, that’s me. And, my mind runs faster than my body. So many ideas, so little time. But, I enjoy every minute of my “hobby.”

[96 EVO]

Harry, do you remember if the rubber boot that goes between your extension to the turbo intake pipe goes down to 5"dia, or 6"?

[Happycarz]

Bill, 

I reread how you found your solution, finding the collapsed air filter. You are very logical and methodical in your approach. Not many folks could do what you did.  Well done.

I’m pretty sure I have the same engine as you do, CM 850, CPL 1096.  I have a 2006 ISL400 in my 2008 Camelot.

My new Baldwin air filter came 2 weeks ago, to be changed at my annual service. It is three years old. Now you have me wondering about the steel reinforcements. Might just open the box tomorrow.  Hmmm.

 
Ben,

The rubber 90° elbow is 7” in, 7” out.  I used a piece of 7” aluminum tubing to connect the elbow to the existing hump hose (reducer.) The hump hose should be 7” to 5”, if I’m not mistaken.  The hump hose and the rest of the plumbing is all original. The 7” hump hose was originally clamped to the side exit of the air filter.  Hope this helps.

[96 EVO]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

I almost ordered a new straight 7" hump hose, but when I seen the price, I changed my mind.

When my new filter and constant tension clamp arrived, I realized I was waaay off thinking I needed a straight 7" hump hose!!

[Tom Cherry]

12 hours ago, Happycarz said:

Bill, 

I reread how you found your solution, finding the collapsed air filter. You are very logical and methodical in your approach. Not many folks could do what you did.  Well done.

I’m pretty sure I have the same engine as you do, CM 850, CPL 1096.  I have a 2006 ISL400 in my 2008 Camelot.

My new Baldwin air filter came 2 weeks ago, to be changed at my annual service. It is three years old. Now you have me wondering about the steel reinforcements. Might just open the box tomorrow.  Hmmm.

 
Ben,

The rubber 90° elbow is 7” in, 7” out.  I used a piece of 7” aluminum tubing to connect the elbow to the existing hump hose (reducer.) The hump hose should be 7” to 5”, if I’m not mistaken.  The hump hose and the rest of the plumbing is all original. The 7” hump hose was originally clamped to the side exit of the air filter.  Hope this helps.

The AF and hose issue have been discussed here, in a different vein.  This may be a 2009 Camelot ISL “model specific” event or perhaps more generic.

My Camelot has a flexible intake hose coming down from the upper air intake on the corner of rear cap.  That is basically a “black rubber” flex hose.  It is OEM as I purchased it new.  Around 35 - 40K, my OTR shop told me I had an issue.  The 7” hose has a 90 deg bend at the bottom to attach to the AF.  I only use the Cummins Fleetguard PN, so that needs to be remembered.

It APPEARED that Monaco either did not push the precut 7” line far enough up on the sleeve of the air intake housing or maybe the precut one was too long OR maybe it was a “Assembler” goof in that the hose was supposed to be “trimmed as needed”.  Whatever the reason, my hose was TOO LONG.  So the 90 deg bend was actually below the AF.  Doesn’t sound critical, RIGHT?  WRONG.  By having a greater than 90 deg bend, the outer edge of the 7” rubber intake hose had too much tension or strain.  It split along the external seam of one of the “wraps”.  The hose is made by wrapping (think Ace bandage) a piece of rubber with an wire insert and then thermal welded or heat fused.

The shop said they had ordered parts and was going to put in a solid pipe and a fixed 90 deg fitting and then use the original 7” hose to transition to the AF…..so we temporarily installed the new filter and taped “AT” the hose…..then waited.  The shop could not figure out how to install the new parts….I added this explanation after looking at his photos so read along….I apologize for the wandering explanation…

EDITED…..If you look closely at HappyCarz first photo, that is exactly the OEM installation and his bend is “drooping” or below the centerline of the intake side of the filter.  And you can see it bulge or extend out.  His solution is good.  But I did talk to Cummins and they said that they had some “90 degree” filters with a side inlet.  They said it was trial and error so that you had to measure the filters with the proper outlet diameter and the centerline of the side intake and see if they would fit in Monaco’s application.  I chose to repair and see how that worked as any leakage or incoming air in the bend was a little dirtier and hotter, so the Turbo was less efficient, but the increased frequency of my replacement and the fact that I don’t drive on dusty roads for extended periods was factored in.  They said replace the hose and correct the improper bend or, if feasible, trim properly and repair the hose and inspect and monitor…..thus my path (shade tree) was approved and confirmed by a Cummins tech support person in a very long  conversation.

The air intake sleeve is about a FOOT out or more from the intake of the filter.  So, the lineup of getting a straight down pipe and then the 90 deg fitting lined up and “in place” for the 7” flexible coupling was not feasible.  What we had done in the interim until the new parts arrived was to “tape it up”.  The shop used the High Temp Foil HVAC tape.  I actually cut the strips and assisted the tech in the repairs.  That lasted about 10 miles and I removed the tape and cleaned the rubber hose with acetone and then wrapped it like it was an Egyptian Pharaoh…..  Mummyfied wrapping is an understatement.  The comments from Cummins and the final decision were made or worked on after the shop could not install the new parts….

That was at least 30K ago.  I and the shop inspect the bend at each service.  I have not had to repair or rejuvenate my Gorilla tape.  I don’t think I used any special grade or type….just the plain vanilla. I have had 2 new AF installed and I had to removed the hose to get to a J-box behind it.  It is solid.

I have read reports of other Camelot owners actually replacing the 7” hose and their creativity is amazing,  But, until there is visible deterioration on the bend or the upper section, mine will be used.  I DID, very carefully, retrim the 7” hose so that the 90 deg bend is “natural”….neither compression or tension and it lines up perfectly….or it looks square without a protractor measurement.

Just a comment.  The Fleetguard filter has never failed and the REAL issue, other than the inadequate air flow of an improper filter, is the care and alignment of,the filter onto the air intake (downstream of the filter’ pipe that runs to the turbo.

Just passing this on as “Gee how did that happen?” hands on issue and solution with the ISL and a Camelot/Scepter circa model years 2008/09….

Edited November 13, 2022 by Tom Cherry
Edited for clarity and also referencing photo in previous post

[Bill R]

I started today to measure and configure for the retrofit of the air intake filter for my '06 Windsor.  As mentioned earlier in this thread, the rubber Cobra Head reducing elbow that is attached to the inlet of the turbo was being sucked in and causing loss of turbo.  Investigation found a reverse ruptured air intake filter that is smaller than the coaches spec filter in the manual.  The existing air filter housing is 10" diameter with 6" inlet/outlet, plus NO flex steel wrap (not original design).  The Monaco spec air filter (Donaldson P537448) housing should be 11" diameter with a 7" inlet/outlet and now has the flex steel wrap on the inside and outside of the filter.  I have researched all the design specs for the Donaldson P537448 and several cross reference filters are available, I purchased the Baldwin PA2722. 

As explained by @windsorbill06 previously in this thread, Monaco had made a "mistake" in the installation with the wrong size filter install.  Unfortunately my coach was also the beneficiary of this "mistake" and was never corrected.

I believe the combination of an incorrect air intake filter (too small), along with damp/humid conditions, lead to the reverse filter rupture.  With reduced air flow and the weakening of the Cobra Head reducer over time lead to the sudden collapse and loss of turbo.  This is my theory to date, but regardless, the wrong size filter is installed.

The retrofit however is not going to be as straight forward as I had hoped.

First issue I experienced is that the larger housing of the new intake air filter could not fit because the radiator surge tank radiator hose was in the way and "frozen" in place.  I believe it had to be original.  When I tried to slightly move it, it cracked and started leaking.  I am actually glad for this because it definitely needed to be replaced.  I did that, see pics below.  Now the filter can fit in easily.

Second issue, since the new 10" housing is larger, the inlet orientation and outlet orientation are not the same.  The inlet is not a problem as I have retrofitted prior to this a galvanized hard pipe bend that is connected to the 7" flex intake hose on one end and to the inlet of the air filter on the other.  This will just need a few adjustments.  The more difficult part of this will be the hard pipe going to the turbo which needs to be shorter on both ends to accommodate for the new larger filter.  See pic below.  I plan to remove the pipe next week, cut and reinstall.  I was surprised to find that this pipe is not supported anywhere.  Only the connections at the filter exit and turbo inlet are holding it in place.  Anyone have this same arrangement and do you have additional supports?

Third issue, the existing filter housing strap bands are smaller and will need to be replaced.  I have already found the correct Donaldson part no. and have those on order.  Just need to cut out the existing bands and install the new ones.

I also have found the correct spec outlet 7"x5" Rubber Hump hose reducer, and I am going to install a new Cobra Head reducing elbow for the Turbo attachment.  The existing one is rather soft and after talking with the manufacturer it should be stiff.

So there we have it.  A little more work than I anticipated, but will "get'er done".

Any thoughts, comments, and suggestions are always welcome.

 

[windsorbill06]

Here are a few pictures of mine now.  The intake hose coming down from the air intake box, directly connects to the air filter intake, no adapters.  I believe warranty changed that hose out, but I can't exactly recall.

The air filter exit goes directly into the rigid pipe leading to the turbo with the rubber reducers.  There are not additional supports on the Cobra, that I can see.  

One thing I found, the new larger filter doesn't quite allow the hatch door to close without hitting the filter.  It's minor, but  you can see a little dent on the front of the filter housing.  Not too sure if you can off set the filter brackets on that frame or not.   You need less than 1/2".

You have the original overflow plastic tank too, I see.  Keep an eye on that thing.  It's old and gets brittle.  I went with an aluminum tank, but they have exact replacement plastic tanks too.

[96 EVO]

37 minutes ago, windsorbill06 said:

  

One thing I found, the new larger filter doesn't quite allow the hatch door to close without hitting the filter.  It's minor, but  you can see a little dent on the front of the filter housing.  Not too sure if you can off set the filter brackets on that frame or not.   You need less than 1/2".

 

That right there may be why they tried getting away with the smaller filter!

My rear cap must be deeper, as I have plenty of clearance between the filter and cap!

[windsorbill06]

1 hour ago, 96 EVO said:

That right there may be why they tried getting away with the smaller filter!

My rear cap must be deeper, as I have plenty of clearance between the filter and cap!

If you look at Harry's pictures posted above, it looks like he off set his inward some from the square tube frame.  However, I don't think I could offset mine as much as it looks like his is.  The filter housing would likely rub against the serpentine belt.

[Bill R]

2 hours ago, windsorbill06 said:

There are not additional supports on the Cobra, that I can see. 

Bill - that pipe must not weigh much to be supported by both boots.  Thanks for the pics, it will help in my install.  I'll send pics when done.

[96 EVO]

8 minutes ago, windsorbill06 said:

If you look at Harry's pictures posted above, it looks like he off set his inward some from the square tube frame.  However, I don't think I could offset mine as much as it looks like his is.  The filter housing would likely rub against the serpentine belt.

I'll check mine tomorrow and see if ours came that way.

[Happycarz]

Mine came with large filter (Baldwin PA2722 or eq.) so when reversing it, the original straps were used.  My door might be further away than Bill’s. 

[96 EVO]

My rear cap is a different design from Harry's Camelot.

Filter resides far below the engine door! Looks like the mounts are offset in about the same. 1 1/2" clearance between filter can and belt tensioner.

[Bill R]

Well, I have the larger spec filter installed.  What I had to do to make it work.

1) Used a 7x6 galvanized reducer on the exit of the filter and then used the existing 6x5 rubber hump hose to attach to the "L" pipe to the turbo inlet.  I did not have to cut down the "L" pipe for the larger filter as the rubber hump hose allowed for a slight angle at the connection point.

2) Installed a new cobra 5x4 rubber boot at the inlet of the turbo.  The new cobra boot was definitely stiffer than the old one.  I think the slow loss of stiffness over the years contributed to the boot collapsing when reduced airflow was experienced.  I did have an exciting moment installing the cobra boot while attaching the hose clamp.  It briefly touched the back of the alternator and gave off a spark.  Nothing damaged and all ok, but a learning never the less.

3) I was able to use a couple of 7" galvanized pipe fittings to attach the existing inlet hose to the filter.  This seems to have worked out well. 

4) I bought two new 11" diameter mounting brackets but there was going to be a lot involved in installing them.  Cutting out the old ones and having to weld in the new ones.  So I decided to use the existing 10" diameter mounting brackets and used some heavy duty tie wraps to make up the circumference difference and cinch down using the latching mechanism.  This seems to be working well.  Everything is snug.  Any suggestions though on another way to strap down the filter housing.  I thought about using ratchet tie downs around the frame below. 

I started the coach, and ran the engine at various RPM's using the CC buttons.   All looked good!!  I will be doing a test drive in a week when heading back home, but I do not anticipate any issues and am looking forward to seeing if there is any improvement in MPG and power with a larger filter.  See pics below also of install.

[96 EVO]

As long as you have good seals between the filter and turbo, should work 👍!

[windsorbill06]

Doesn't look like you can slide the filter forward either without hitting the serpentine belt.  But hard to tell, it looks like you have a little more room between filter and rear cap,  to get the door shut without bumping the filter housing.

As Ben mentioned, as long as seals are tight, you should be fine, especially just getting home.  Personally, I wouldn't leave the bailing wire there as a long term fix, but that's me.    With a little planning, this would be a great Quartzsite project to get the new straps installed for the filter housing.

BTW, our coaches must have been built right next to each other.  Your yellow air minder supply line in your picture, is stretched out about as far as it will go, exactly like mine.

[Bill R]

1 hour ago, windsorbill06 said:

Doesn't look like you can slide the filter forward either without hitting the serpentine belt.

The angle of the pic doesn't show it well, but the filter is about 1 1/2 " in front of the tensioner.  If it moved forward it would hit the tensioner and not the belt.  But that is almost impossible because the boot and "L" pipe have nearly zero tolerance for forward movement.  Also, my hatch does not hit the filter like yours.  Probably because it is installed just a bit more forward.

 

1 hour ago, windsorbill06 said:

Personally, I wouldn't leave the bailing wire there as a long term fix, but that's me.

Will be thinking through my options.  Unfortunately won't be able to make Quartzsite this year.

[Bill R]

Drove 200 miles yesterday since installing the larger air intake filter.  Specs show that the cfm rate is around 20%-30% more and I definitely could tell that the coach had more power and turbo boost.  Going up inclines there was no hesitation or struggle.  Too short of a trip to see if fuel mileage is better, but did show about a 0.5 mpg gain for this little trip.

If you have a 400ISL I would sure check to make sure Monaco installed the spec filter size.  Myself and @windsorbill06are two known coach owners for which a smaller air intake filter was installed.

Thank you again for everyone's help in this venture.  

[windsorbill06]

Bill R

Sure glad it worked out.   Besides yours and mine, I saw one other 2006 Windsor that had the wrong filter.  I'm sure there are others.  Can't speak about non Windsor's with the ISL, however.        Once you see the physical size difference, it's not surprising that the engine produces more power.  Kinda like drinking a thick milkshake through a straw!

 

BTW, You should  be getting 12++mpg now with that new filter. 😆.     NOT!

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, windsorbill06 said:

 

BTW, You should  be getting 12++mpg now with that new filter. 😆.     NOT!

I'd install 2 filters to get 12 mpg.  LOL  😁