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Electric power is off inside


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We have a 2004 Windsor and the electric has turned off three times while hooked up to shore power. Twice we were able to turn it back on with the salesman switch but this time that didn’t work. We checked to make sure connection to shore power wasn’t the issue. 

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You need to define "ELECTRIC".  

If your lights are going out, that is a 12 VDC system.  If your Microwave and the outlets go out....that is the 120 VAC system.

From your comment about the Salesman's switch, it WOULD appear that you are losing 12 VDC power to the "House".

That will kill all the interior lighting (it is ALL 12 VDC).  That will also kill the AC units as the Salesman's switch cuts off the 12 VDC to the thermostat.  

If the Solenoid is bad, then it needs to be bypassed.  Two WAYS of doing.  You have to disconnect the battery NEGATIVE (House Bank) to safely do that. 

One is to see if you have enough slack in the two large cables to move one to the other side of the solenoid 

The other is to put a JUMPER over the solenoid BIG posts or cables.  There is a Jumper on NAPA part that we use for that.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MPB781144

If you use one that is longer, you get a voltage drop and that is bad.  HOWEVER....for a short period, folks have bought some at Walmart.  PROBLEM....they are much longer.

This is a picture from several topics on this.  I don't know EXACTLY how your Solenoid looks.  .  

How do I bypass the “salesman's switch”?? - iRV2 Forums

The above TOPIC has a good discussion.

NOW....ONE WAY to identify the Solenoid is to look in the Electric Bay....don't know if yours if front or rear....MAYBE FRONT.

Have someone TURN ON and then OFF the salesman's switch.  Stay up there and put your hand on what you THINK is it.  If it is WORKING.....it will click or you will feel it work.  ODDS ARE....the contacts are internally burned up.  SO, it keeps shorting out.  BUT, if the coil is working, it will go CLUNK or you feel it.  Once you have identified that....then follow the recommendation.

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Just to add a safety factor to Tom's great post.

Disconnect shoreline, generator off, disconnect the negative of both banks of batteries. 

Some battery combining systems could feed power back to the house battery banks and you would still have a live 12 volt feed.

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A 12 volt test light connected from ground and then probe each side of the solenoid mentioned. It should glow on both sides when engaged. The large terminals that is. 

A voltmeter works but can trick you into believeing things are fine. 

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If it is your 12 volt power controlled by the salesman switch you could just bypass the solenoid altogether.  Many people do this as the solenoids fail and are unreliable.  They also consume power while in use. 

Mine has not failed yet but if/when it does I'll just take the two power cables and bolt them together on one of the studs. 

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37 minutes ago, BillDeb45 said:

Where can you purchase the cellinoid?

have you followed my advice or Myron's?  If you don't KNOW that the Solenoid is bad... then why is it being replaced?

If you do NOT have a Voltmeter or a Test light and have concerns about trouble shooting, then this would be the advice...

Purchase the Jumper from NAPA.  OR bypass the solenoid by moving a cable to the other side.  

NOW....use the MH and see if the problem comes back.  The bypassing or jumpering is TEMPORARY....and you will have full function and use of the MH.

The bypassing is something that say, 75% of the folks here have done....either by the jumper or moving the cables.  SOME folks use the Salesman Switch.  That is THEIR call.  BUT, realize that the Salesman Switch was added to assist the dealers in closing up at night.

So, unless you have a specific need and use it frequently or just "WANT IT LIKE THEY BUILT IT"....then removal or bypassing is the preferred option.

The Solenoid is a HIGH FAILURE item.  SO, if you use it or want to use or don't want to mess with the wiring, then be aware that it WILL FAIL AGAIN....usually at an inopertune time.....  That is guaranteed.....and that is why the majority bypass or get rid of it.  

BUT, if you want to keep it as an option, then testing the "JUMPERING or MOVING THE CABLE" is the ONLY way to make sure that you do NOT have problem somewhere else in the system.  Bad cables or Loose connections or whatever.

SO....the only comment, one should TROUBLE SHOOT and identify the defective device or component using normal test or trouble shooting techniques....then decide what to do.  Replace or eliminate.  Some folks actually, that do use it, I think I read here, carry a spare....as they KNOW it will fail and are prepared.

Just some comments as you asked for help and assistance.  It is up to you as to how to proceed from here.  

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I bypassed the salesman switch solenoid by putting all the red cables on one post.  I disconnect the plus and minus small wires and taped each separately and stored.  

If you are one of those who like to have everything left as it came with the coach, be prepared to continue to have issues.  

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Bill, that is the "BIRD" solenoid and has its own set of problems. It's a great idea to replace that solenoid every three or four years to prevent the inevitable. That solenoid controls the "combining" of the battery banks for charging and as an emergency jump start function. 

That solenoid does draw a lot of current and can get so hot you cannot touch it. That is normal for that setup. The "Salesman" solenoid is a "latching" solenoid and draws no current when toggled on. 

The solenoid you show Bill has two simple control wires. The white is ground, and the purple is the control wire. A 12 volt test light or meter placed on the purple wire will show weather the thing is supposed to be active. If there is voltage on the purple wire, there should be the exact same voltage on each of the large terminals, thus showing the internal contacts are working properly. Well, mostly properly. HUH! The contacts can make very poor contact do to arcing and contamination growth and still allow some charging voltage across the large terminals which will drive anyone insane trying to diagnose it. Replacement is a great way to avoid problems.

 

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47 minutes ago, Chuck B 2004 Windsor said:

I bypassed the salesman switch solenoid by putting all the red cables on one post.  I disconnect the plus and minus small wires and taped each separately and stored.  

If you are one of those who like to have everything left as it came with the coach, be prepared to continue to have issues.  

Guys who know a lot have a hard time making it simple so guys like me can get it.  😁

So, here's the simple version.  We are talking about 2 seperate solenoids,  the specific solenoid in question is the salesman solenoid located in your front elect bay. It turns off much of your 12 volt elect stuff, it causes lots of problems, so like Chuck said it's best to eleminate it by combining the wires.  Do that and presto problem is gone.  👍

The other solenoid is in the rear elect bay on the pass side.  Its purpose is to combine the seperate battery banks.  It will not cause the problem you are having.

Edited by Ray Davis
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48 minutes ago, BillDeb45 said:

This is our set up. Where would we attach cables to?

A2C182F9-B44E-41BB-8807-8EACA57E67FB.jpeg

RAY JUST NAILED IT....This IS PROBABLY YOUR REAR AREA.  On the Windsor, it is PROBABLY in the FRONT ELECTRICAL BAY.  Shoot a picture of that.....

The ROUND Black device with the silver/white label is the BIG BOY or the BIG SOLENOID that connects the TWO battery Banks.  This is NOT the Salesman Switch Solenoid.  It is MUCH smaller.  It will ONLY have TWO Cables and two SMALL wires.  

FWIW....In the picture the silver round fuse to the lower RIGHT of the BIg Boy is a 300 Amp Fuse that connects you INVERTER to the Battery Buss.  This is NOT the Salesman Switch Solenoid

The two Square devices....one under the 300 amp fuse and the other at the LOWER LEFT of the Big Boy are Resettable Circuit Breakers.  They have the yellow or green printing.  They are NOT the Salesman Switch Solenoid.  

Look for the OTHER (presumably UP FRONT....as this is probably in the BACK) Electrical bay....

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It would help owners out to familiarize themselves with what is in each bay of their coaches.   That way when you encounter issues you will not be riding around with the top down.  Being familiar with that helps.  Of course you can check the manual that came with your coach.  Good bathroom reading.

2 hours ago, myrontruex said:

Just to add a safety factor to Tom's great post.

Disconnect shoreline, generator off, disconnect the negative of both banks of batteries. 

Some battery combining systems could feed power back to the house battery banks and you would still have a live 12 volt feed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A 12 volt test light connected from ground and then probe each side of the solenoid mentioned. It should glow on both sides when engaged. The large terminals that is. 

A voltmeter works but can trick you into believeing things are fine. 

Not for me, I know how to use it

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Bill,

The solenoid in the photo you just posted is your Battery Isolator which will combine your house and chassis batteries together. That can be replaced with a Blue Seas ML-ACR Device and you will never have anymore problems with that one.

In addition, I observe two BIG problems in that last photo you posted. You have BEP Battery Cutoff Switches which are a major accident waiting to happen. You may discover your coach on fire from one of those switches.

I suggest you search this forum to see what a failed BEP Switch looks like inside. It will give you nightmares!

Edited by Dr4Film
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Thses pictures texted to me last evening by somone that is/was having a loss of 12 volt power. 

Note that the "Salesman Solenoid" is bypassed by a previous owner.(bottom picture). Chasing the problem of no slide, lights, and various other 12 volt problems was made more difficult by having a tough time accessing the 12 volt fuse panel hidden by the bedroom slide and to make things a bit more challening, the persons lack of experience with a voltmeter. 

Once you find a voltmeter and setup that works for the DC or AC readings, take pictures of your meter and print them out. Put in sheet protectors and secure them with your voltmeter. 

The problem led back to the Rear Run panel in the picture. Below the left switch. A large breaker that feeds the solenoid up front. It is rare for this to trip but could have accidently been left off by the person I was working with when they tried to diagnose an issue. 

 

Rear run bay 2007 Camelot.jpeg

Salesman switch bypassed.jpeg

Edited by myrontruex
trying to get pictures attached
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WOW....we are really pontificating....and perhaps trying to convince Bill to take up ANOTHER HOBBY...

From the TOP.  If the photo Bill posted is, as I suspect, THE REAR RUN BAY....then the Salesman Switch is NOT there.  I tried to help him identify what the funny looking things are.

Richard (DR4Film) does make an excellent point....as well as the REASON that you have to isolate the problem.

BILL, YES, those older swtiches are HIGHLY unreliable.  Blue Seas makes Replacements and they are easily (WITH Myron's TIPS) replaceable with the power off.  They are simple.  TWO WIRES.  No other contacts.  That MIGHT be on your  TO DO LIST.....or at least have the new spares....

Here is the one that most folks use....

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00445KFZ2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It is their model 6006 and you can get your choice of color....RED or BLACK.  That is an EASY DIY project.....

BUT....along those lines, IF you have one of the Battery Cut OFF switches arcing or going bad.....then it will be an issue.....so to eliminate the Salesman Switch....then JUMPER it or BYPASS it.  If the problem persists....then I WOULD put in the two new switches.....as that is most obvious place. 

Other than that....if it gets worse and you can't find it....get a tech or someone who can help trouble shoot.  The Solenoid is Plan A....but bypass....then the switches....and that will be the best $50 (total) that you will spend as they usually go bad just when you need them.

RAY...

Yes, I type fast.  My mother went to "Secretary Night School" when I was in the 7th grade and worked her full time day job.  I did her TYPING assignments for her as they took off for strikeovers and such.  She could type....but the homework had to be perfect. I finally got around to taking Typing as a Senior and I did get a good grade.  But some of the quick fingered girls could beat me....BUT, I can click with the best of them....SOMETIMES that is a curse....like I keep ON and ON....LOL...

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That is a Latching Solenoid. To bypass connect all of the LARGE red wires on each side of the Solenoid together effectively bypassing the Solenoid.

You'd be hard pressed to find two Monaco coaches alike.

Edited by Dr4Film
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"and perhaps trying to convince Bill to take up ANOTHER HOBBY..."😉 Bill this might be a good time to step back and read the previous posts. The answers you seek will be found within. I most always troubleshoot with jumpers in the front pocket. And for some perhaps, a small bible in the back pocket.

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