Starting issue

[Georgia Mike]

Getting ready to leave yesterday to head home and I went to start the Motorhome I turned the key one notch and waited for “wait to start” light to go out. The gauges did there usual thing and when I turned the key the rest of the way to start……nothing not even a click. I tried it a second time and it started right up. It happened again today after a stop and again started right up on second try. This never happened before. Could this be the keyed switch suddenly going bad?

[Bob Danny]

I’ve been having the same problem, I have changed out the ignition switch and checked the service switch and all grounds but still having the issue. I’ll be following, I’m at my wits end 

 

2011 Monaco Diplomat 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Bob Danny

[Tom Cherry]

4 minutes ago, Georgia Mike said:

Getting ready to leave yesterday to head home and I went to start the Motorhome I turned the key one notch and waited for “wait to start” light to go out. The gauges did there usual thing and when I turned the key the rest of the way to start……nothing not even a click. I tried it a second time and it started right up. It happened again today after a stop and again started right up on second try. This never happened before. Could this be the keyed switch suddenly going bad?

How OLD are your Chassis Batteries and do you have the 750 Series and not the 500 Series?

Many of us have had this issue.  More prevalent in HOT weather.  Typical scenario.  You drive home from a trip.  You have to unhook the TOAD so you can back or get into the cul de sac or back into your driveway.  In the time it takes to unhook and get the DW settled in the car to move it, the engine absorbs a LOT of heat.  SO, it expands.  You turn the key and the moment of panic sets IN....OMG, it ain't gonna start.  SO, then it starts.  That is a sign that the batteries are becoming weaker.

NOW, you first start, depending on how COLD it was and whether the MH's Chassis Batteries were being charged....and the type of system.....Such as....Does your Chassis Batteries get CHARGED while plugged in to power at home or storage.  If the answer is NO, then that would be the cause.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to hear a CLICK from up front....or at least in my Camelot.  Shutting off and restarting is something that I rarely do.  I, and at least one 2008 Dynasty Owner will get the dreaded.....BATTERY LOW warning light....even with farily NEW batteries. 

I got about a total of 12 years and almost 65K out of TWO SETS of batteries.  FIRST the original were UNDERSIZED..31-LHD (750 CCA)..thanks to cheap Monaco.  I replaced them with the 31-MHD (950 CCA) batteries that were STANDARD on the Dynasty with the SAME ENGINE.  That was in Jun 2015.  I took delivery in January 2009....so almost 6 1/2 years.  Next ones were in June, 2021.  There was a power failure at storage and my BIRD Big Boy did NOT reengage and the Chassis went down. I jumped the engine from the House using a single jumper cable.  I was going on a trip and decided not to risk it.  BUT, i did get 6 years.  I have a Pulse Tech Desulfonater on each bank of two batteries.

It MAY be the KEY....but your situation sounds just like mine. ONE TRICK to try.  After you drive awhile and STOP....say at a rest or whatever and the engine is HOT....pup a Jumper Cable across the positives of the Two banks.  THEN hit the key.  If it starts quickly.....then, ODDS ARE....batteries are getting a little weak.  Read the manual..  If you have the stock Cummins ISL 400, ....your manual calls for 950 CCA or Group 31p - MHD (2 each)

That's my take.  You CAN pull them, after being FULLY RECHARGED and find an Interstate Distributor that has a REAL load tester and have them tested.  BUT, I suspect it is getting to be about that time....

BUT, you never know....we have had a RASH of "need an ignition switch".  I would NOT put in an Ignition switch without first knowing or testing my Chassis Batteries...and the Jumper Cable trick should be the dead giveaway....and you KNOW (OR HOPE) that you House is fully charged and will boost a slightly declining Chassis...

 

[Georgia Mike]

In my case all batteries were replaced in 2020. I have a load tester so tomorrow I will check that and the connections on the chassis batteries. I have a solar charger so both of my battery banks are always float charging around 13.5 volts or somewhere around there. The guy I bought it from wasn’t cheap he put Trojans for the house batteries but I’m not sure of the chassis brand. 

[Tom Cherry]

2 minutes ago, Georgia Mike said:

In my case all batteries were replaced in 2020. I have a load tester so tomorrow I will check that and the connections on the chassis batteries. I have a solar charger so both of my battery banks are always float charging around 13.5 volts or somewhere around there. The guy I bought it from wasn’t cheap he put Trojans for the house batteries but I’m not sure of the chassis brand. 

OK....then there is ONE more thing to do.  YES, look behind the battery box or wherever the Ground STUD is located for BOTH Banks and loosen and then rotate or burning to polish or remove and clean.  We just had an OMG moment with no or low voltage.  Turns out, on the Dynasty, the "Connection Studs" that comment the cables through the box (if you have them) was LOOSE.  A bad connection can also prevent full recharging....as I am sure you know.   IF you batteries are GOOD....and they should be, then it could be a connection. BUT, it sure acts like mine.  Also look at the CCA.  If he was mistakenly sold 750 CCA, then that would well be the problem as you need 950 CCA.

IF you really want to test my theory....then instead of ONE Jumper Cable....when it is HOT, use TWO and that way you have the GROUND as well as the positive.

ALL I can tell you is that your symptoms were exactly like mine as well as others.  BUT, we had more years on the the batteries....but the OMG and then it started, when hot, is a classic sign of batteries getting weak....but that also assumes a GOOD connection....and you can test that as well. The SWITCH issues have been more PLAY and Intermittent issues....and if you "push or hold it right", as in pushing up or maybe up to the right or whatever, things work perfectly.  If you have not lost any other power or have not had any intermittent electrical (ignition) issues, then that lowers the odds on the switch....but hey, it happens....

Good Luck, Keep us apprised....

[Frank McElroy]

3 hours ago, Georgia Mike said:

Getting ready to leave yesterday to head home and I went to start the Motorhome I turned the key one notch and waited for “wait to start” light to go out. The gauges did there usual thing and when I turned the key the rest of the way to start……nothing not even a click. I tried it a second time and it started right up. It happened again today after a stop and again started right up on second try. This never happened before. Could this be the keyed switch suddenly going bad?

When turning the key on there will be the typical swipe of the dash gauges and the clicking noises from the ASB system booting up and doing the system diagnostics and you should hear the engine lift pump humming for about 90 seconds.  If you are hearing all that, and when you turn the key to start and get nothing, the likely issue is either a bad starter, relay in the engine starter circuit or ignition switch.  You'll need to take voltage measurements to sort out this intermittent problem. 

A good first step is to be sure all the starter and engine to frame ground cables are tight.

[Martinvz]

This may or may not not be applicable…

Years ago I had a VW Microbus with the VW 2.5L inline 5 cyl engine that was giving me a similar problem. This was in South Africa and that version of the Vanagon was never built in the US. What a great towing vehicle though, just btw but it had a horrible gearbox. We used it for several years to tow our camper.

The vehicle developed a similar starting problem. The engine starts fine when cold but when it is hot it just did not react. My wife would take i5 to the dealer and they, obviously, would not find a problem until we were able to connect the dots regarding heat. The service manager had the tech swap the starter with one from a new vehicle in the lot. 

Never had the problem again. Apparently, VW upgraded the starter to be able to handle the heat better as the exhaust passed very close to the starter.

This supports the heat issue Tom Cherry highlighted. My suggestion is to add a heat shield to protect the starter from the engine heat.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Martinvz

[Guest rdetter5009]

Answer to Georgia Mike. My problem to your same symptom was the small ground wire from back of starter to back of starter solenoid. I have not fixed the problem yet because the # 10 bolt coming out of beck of solenoid is rusty and fragile. When the problem comes, ( which has been over a year now ) I tap it with a long broom handle. I don't want to take starter and solenoid down, they are heavy.

Bob Etter

2004 Holiday Rambler 45'

500 Cummins  

[Robert92867]

Same issue here.  After checking wiring and batteries I pulled the starter.  Here"s what I found.  Had to  pull the transmission as well and replace the flexplate, due to damage to the ring gear.  Cost was not bad. $145 for the starter and $260 for a flexplate.  Replaced rear main oil seal ($60) and oil pan gasket ($40) while I had the trans out.  Harbor Freight 2000 lb Transmission Jack ($300) made quick work of the job. Not saying this is your problem, but it might be. I feel lucky to have it fixed for under 1k, which is getting to be a minimum yearly maintenance buy-in for my old coach.

[Happycarz]

No start when cold has different issues than no start when hot. 

As some of you mentioned that your problem happens only when hot, I’ll give you another take on that.  With a vehicle with many start cycles on it, the starter brushes wear down, which is normal. These brushes are attached to a Bakelite holder. The copper and Bakelite expand/contract at different rates.  When cold, the worn down copper brushes protrude enough to make contact with the starter commutator. But when they get hot, the Bakelite is touching the commutator and the copper is slightly suspended, producing a no start condition. A strong rap on the starter jars the copper brushes enough to make contact with the commutator and the starter now turns.

This is just one case of no start when hot.

A cold no start condition, with tested good batteries, is usually an open circuit between the battery and starter. And that circuit on our coaches could be of considerable length with many connections and devices along that circuit.  

An example is both Tom’s and my coaches.  The ignition key is powered by a fuse on the PCB in the rear run bay, out through a connector, along the frame, through the FRB and to the ignition switch.  When the key is in the start position, the 12v runs back to the rear run bay PCB, through a power relay, through a neutral start relay, to a hard wire screwed to the PCB and finally to the starter solenoid. If that solenoid gets 12v, the starter engages. If anywhere along this circuit there is an open, the motor will not start. 

This example is for two years of one model. (Add sister coaches Scepter and Contessa to this model) A wiring schematic would be almost required to trace this circuit on each year/model. 

I have used a test box with different colored lights to be connected in the circuit at different points, when tracing an intermittent open. Each light has its own test lead. When the open happens, the lights downstream won’t illuminate. Now you have it narrowed down between the lights that are on and the ones that are off.  You get to pick where you place the leads using your best judgment and keep narrowing it down.

08 & 09 Camelot’s, Contessa’s and Scepter’s have a know issue of the starter solenoid wire coming loose at the rear run panel. A pocket screwdriver and 5 minutes cures this no start condition. 

This is not Mikes issue, as he has a 2006 Dynasty.  I’m just saying there are many no start conditions. And load testing the batteries is of course the first test to be done.

Once the batteries are proven good, and grounds are good, it is time to work your way down the start circuit.  

[Tom Cherry]

10 hours ago, Happycarz said:

No start when cold has different issues than no start when hot. 

As some of you mentioned that your problem happens only when hot, I’ll give you another take on that.  With a vehicle with many start cycles on it, the starter brushes wear down, which is normal. These brushes are attached to a Bakelite holder. The copper and Bakelite expand/contract at different rates.  When cold, the worn down copper brushes protrude enough to make contact with the starter commutator. But when they get hot, the Bakelite is touching the commutator and the copper is slightly suspended, producing a no start condition. A strong rap on the starter jars the copper brushes enough to make contact with the commutator and the starter now turns.

This is just one case of no start when hot.

A cold no start condition, with tested good batteries, is usually an open circuit between the battery and starter. And that circuit on our coaches could be of considerable length with many connections and devices along that circuit.  

An example is both Tom’s and my coaches.  The ignition key is powered by a fuse on the PCB in the rear run bay, out through a connector, along the frame, through the FRB and to the ignition switch.  When the key is in the start position, the 12v runs back to the rear run bay PCB, through a power relay, through a neutral start relay, to a hard wire screwed to the PCB and finally to the starter solenoid. If that solenoid gets 12v, the starter engages. If anywhere along this circuit there is an open, the motor will not start. 

This example is for two years of one model. (Add sister coaches Scepter and Contessa to this model) A wiring schematic would be almost required to trace this circuit on each year/model. 

 

I have used a test box with different colored lights to be connected in the circuit at different points, when tracing an intermittent open. Each light has its own test lead. When the open happens, the lights downstream won’t illuminate. Now you have it narrowed down between the lights that are on and the ones that are off.  You get to pick where you place the leads using your best judgment and keep narrowing it down.

08 & 09 Camelot’s, Contessa’s and Scepter’s have a know issue of the starter solenoid wire coming loose at the rear run panel. A pocket screwdriver and 5 minutes cures this no start condition. 

This is not Mikes issue, as he has a 2006 Dynasty.  I’m just saying there are many no start conditions. And load testing the batteries is of course the first test to be done.

Once the batteries are proven good, and grounds are good, it is time to work your way down the start circuit.  

 

Great info.  Coincidentally, when I retorque or check all the ANL fuses and other high current connections in the RRB, I had also used a screwdriver and snugged the terminals on the PCB’s as well.  Good to know.  

NOW, on a tangent, there is a “black box” in the engine compartment on the main cross beam (about shoulder height) on the RIGHT side.  Maybe a “fuse”.  I am hesitant to mess with stuff I don’t understand.  Just moving the bundles or wire, in the corrugated wraps one time shorted off a NOT USED wire we used on the Dynasty and up.  Apparently one or more backbone harnesses was used on the Camelots as the Dynasties.  There is an alarm wire for open “bins” as in storage bays or engine hatch.  Our Camelots do NOT have the switches, but the wire is there.  It is chafed and got grounded on mine when I had to move (gently….not brutally) the bundles most of the way to install a fire suppression system.  I got it back to where it was not grounded,

Do you know what that black box with a heavy battery cable is? Thanks

[Happycarz]

I have yet to see such a black box in my wiring bundle. I have had many of the bundles opened, adding wires in an orderly fashion, or just tracing wiring circuits. Plus, I just had to clean up the mess, reorganizing where I could make an improvement. At the same time, learning how and where the circuits were routed.  Never enough information. Never saw a black box.

But with all the running changes on our coaches I’m not surprised that yours is different than mine.  On the factory tour in Indiana, and again in Oregon, the guide was adamant that each coach had the wiring harness built for that particular coach. We now know that just isn’t the case.  My two axle 40’ coach has a wiring harness that incorporates a tag axle, including a mounted tag axle relay. The list goes on.

That being said, I am happy with my coach. It did take a few years to get all the anomalies corrected, but it’s just a hobby. It is not a Lexus. And, after 15 years, I can go to and correct most issues that arise.  Shopping for a new coach and starting over again would not be on the top of my list.

Tom, were any of your screws loose at the rear of the rear run PCB? Maybe you fortunately had the gorilla guy install your wires. I didn’t.

 

 

[Georgia Mike]

I started looking into my starting problem. I checked all battery connections and they were all very tight. I decided to replace the ignition switch since it was fairly cheap. All went well except when trying to spin the bezel back on. It won’t tighten down all the way and seems to bind up but when i have it out of the dash it spins freely. Anyways I know there is a tool to use on these but not sure which one to order. Here is picture of the bezel I have with the three indentations and a couple of different tools I found. Anyone know which one will work? Using a screw driver and hammer is to hard you have to have 3 hands. 
https://www.amazon.com/3918893-1968-72-TRUCK-IGNITION-SWITCH/dp/B004IWZRJ0/ref=asc_df_B004IWZRJ0/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=390880032701&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4580939133929202231&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1015464&hvtargid=pla-838444879129&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=79833126213&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=390880032701&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4580939133929202231&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1015464&hvtargid=pla-838444879129

https://www.classicindustries.com/product/all-years/chevrolet/chevyiinova/parts/T10010.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4am3w_mo_AIVwxmtBh0ACgtxEAQYHyABEgIJZPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
https://www.zip-corvette.com/60-65-ignition-switch-bezel-tool.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIytaHmfqo_AIV4Rd9Ch1-rgH6EAQYEiABEgLFMvD_BwE

[Georgia Mike]

If you need to remove or tighten a loose ignition switch bezel this is the correct tool on most of our Monaco’s

https://www.ebay.com/itm/68-69-70-71-72-Ignition-Switch-Nut-Tool-Chevrolet-GMC-Truck-Van-C10-398893/204163139916?pageci=5a7fd145-a2aa-4667-b43b-279a7eba423e&redirect=mobile

Edited January 27, 2023 by Georgia Mike

[Georgia Mike]

I m on a 4000 mile trip and  a few days ago I fueled up midway to a campground and turned the key and nothing happened. Tried agian and it started. The next morning the same thing but it took 3 attempts of turning the key until it started. I am now sitting in Amarillo Texas and have one more day till we leave and am afraid if this thing is going to start. After I replaced the ignition switch in January we went on couple of trips and have started it to get fuel and bring it to the house  a few times and no starting problems. I thought it was fixed for sure. We have traveled a couple thousand miles with no issue till now. This sounds different though. When trying to start before I didn’t hear anything now I can hear a click something coming from the rear. I haven’t investigated because it eventually starts so tomorrow when we leave I’m going to stand behind to hear. I have checked battery connections in the battery bays and both battery banks are at 13.5 volts. I think it’s the starter or the solenoid. I am hoping I can finish this trip out and fix it when I get home. Hopefully I can get it started each morning. 

[Robert92867]

After a logical progression of checking ground and power resistance, and bypassing the ignition switch, I unbolted my starter and found chipped teeth on the pinion gear. Same symptoms as you are experiencing.  The Flexplate had taken a beating from the chipped pinion gear and I ended up replacing that too.  

[Georgia Mike]

Thanks for the information. I’m hoping the teeth aren’t broken. I’m going to start the engine from the rear in the morning. Does the ignition key need to be on for that?

[Frank McElroy]

20 minutes ago, Georgia Mike said:

Thanks for the information. I’m hoping the teeth aren’t broken. I’m going to start the engine from the rear in the morning. Does the ignition key need to be on for that?

Turn the front ignition to on, flip the front/rear start switch to rear then press the rear start switch.  When done be sure the flip the switch back to front.

[Ivan K]

A friend of mine with a Cat engine (not that it makes a difference) had the starter mounting bolts get loose and similar symptoms. If so, easy check before the misalignment causes teeth wear. And ground comes through the mount too, I assume.

[Raymond]

On 11/27/2022 at 5:31 PM, Tom Cherry said:

How OLD are your Chassis Batteries and do you have the 750 Series and not the 500 Series?

Many of us have had this issue.  More prevalent in HOT weather.  Typical scenario.  You drive home from a trip.  You have to unhook the TOAD so you can back or get into the cul de sac or back into your driveway.  In the time it takes to unhook and get the DW settled in the car to move it, the engine absorbs a LOT of heat.  SO, it expands.  You turn the key and the moment of panic sets IN....OMG, it ain't gonna start.  SO, then it starts.  That is a sign that the batteries are becoming weaker.

NOW, you first start, depending on how COLD it was and whether the MH's Chassis Batteries were being charged....and the type of system.....Such as....Does your Chassis Batteries get CHARGED while plugged in to power at home or storage.  If the answer is NO, then that would be the cause.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to hear a CLICK from up front....or at least in my Camelot.  Shutting off and restarting is something that I rarely do.  I, and at least one 2008 Dynasty Owner will get the dreaded.....BATTERY LOW warning light....even with farily NEW batteries. 

I got about a total of 12 years and almost 65K out of TWO SETS of batteries.  FIRST the original were UNDERSIZED..31-LHD (750 CCA)..thanks to cheap Monaco.  I replaced them with the 31-MHD (950 CCA) batteries that were STANDARD on the Dynasty with the SAME ENGINE.  That was in Jun 2015.  I took delivery in January 2009....so almost 6 1/2 years.  Next ones were in June, 2021.  There was a power failure at storage and my BIRD Big Boy did NOT reengage and the Chassis went down. I jumped the engine from the House using a single jumper cable.  I was going on a trip and decided not to risk it.  BUT, i did get 6 years.  I have a Pulse Tech Desulfonater on each bank of two batteries.

It MAY be the KEY....but your situation sounds just like mine. ONE TRICK to try.  After you drive awhile and STOP....say at a rest or whatever and the engine is HOT....pup a Jumper Cable across the positives of the Two banks.  THEN hit the key.  If it starts quickly.....then, ODDS ARE....batteries are getting a little weak.  Read the manual..  If you have the stock Cummins ISL 400, ....your manual calls for 950 CCA or Group 31p - MHD (2 each)

That's my take.  You CAN pull them, after being FULLY RECHARGED and find an Interstate Distributor that has a REAL load tester and have them tested.  BUT, I suspect it is getting to be about that time....

BUT, you never know....we have had a RASH of "need an ignition switch".  I would NOT put in an Ignition switch without first knowing or testing my Chassis Batteries...and the Jumper Cable trick should be the dead giveaway....and you KNOW (OR HOPE) that you House is fully charged and will boost a slightly declining Chassis...

 

WOW! This was helpful. I’ve experienced the same “heart stopping” phenomena of not starting every once in a while. I recently changed batteries (and upgraded to MHD) just because the (LHD) were due—never thinking the start problem was connected to the batteries and so I continue to be on alert for the starting issue to reappear. After reading your post I don’t need to have that worry anymore! Thanks. 

[Georgia Mike]

I am now in Wichita Falls getting ready to head to Waco this morning. Yesterday on the first attempt it didn’t start but I definitely heard the solenoid  loud and clear then it started on the second attempt. It seems now that every attempt it’s not starting but eventually after one or two times it does. We are going to be 3 days in Waco so I am going to crawl under and try to tighten all the connections to the starter and grounds and recheck the battery connections. I just hit 70,000 miles so I guess the starter could be bad maybe even though the starting batteries are two years old and show great voltage that they could have a problem. Next time it doesn’t start I was going to try the battery boost switch and see if that does anything. I am trying to get her home so I can order a starter and do this myself but we have 10 more days. I would love to go on a trip just once and not have any problems. Seems like I always have some kind of drama.

[Frank McElroy]

11 minutes ago, Georgia Mike said:

I am now in Wichita Falls getting ready to head to Waco this morning. Yesterday on the first attempt it didn’t start but I definitely heard the solenoid  loud and clear then it started on the second attempt. It seems now that every attempt it’s not starting but eventually after one or two times it does. We are going to be 3 days in Waco so I am going to crawl under and try to tighten all the connections to the starter and grounds and recheck the battery connections. I just hit 70,000 miles so I guess the starter could be bad maybe even though the starting batteries are two years old and show great voltage that they could have a problem. Next time it doesn’t start I was going to try the battery boost switch and see if that does anything. I am trying to get her home so I can order a starter and do this myself but we have 10 more days. I would love to go on a trip just once and not have any problems. Seems like I always have some kind of drama.

You have all the classic symptoms of a starter going bad.  Eventually you will get to a point where it won't work.  Hitting with a hammer might be your last resort before having it rebuilt or replaced.

[Georgia Mike]

Thanks Frank, yes that’s what I believe as well. Just hoping I can get it home before it goes out totally. 5 more stops

[Frank McElroy]

I think you'll make it home.  Might take a few hammer hits but you should be able to get home.

[Tom Cherry]

23 hours ago, Georgia Mike said:

I am now in Wichita Falls getting ready to head to Waco this morning. Yesterday on the first attempt it didn’t start but I definitely heard the solenoid  loud and clear then it started on the second attempt. It seems now that every attempt it’s not starting but eventually after one or two times it does. We are going to be 3 days in Waco so I am going to crawl under and try to tighten all the connections to the starter and grounds and recheck the battery connections. I just hit 70,000 miles so I guess the starter could be bad maybe even though the starting batteries are two years old and show great voltage that they could have a problem. Next time it doesn’t start I was going to try the battery boost switch and see if that does anything. I am trying to get her home so I can order a starter and do this myself but we have 10 more days. I would love to go on a trip just once and not have any problems. Seems like I always have some kind of drama.

Reality is cruel.  Waiting multiple times to breath….as in….THANK GOD….it started does take a lot of pleasure out of our hobby….

Read the last sentence in my sidebar bio….

 If rebuilding is not an option, I’d pm @vanwill52  He is a total gearhead from 2 wheels and up.  He swapped starters and went to a gear reduction and wrote it up or posted about it here.  I’d consider that if i had to replace.

Good Luck…