Not charging house bank

[tcbrow]

My house batteries ran down and my CO detector was chirping. I realized my charger wasn't charging (showed "Float"). I read on here earlier how all breakers controlled by the Energy Management System need to be working properly (particularly the washer/dryer breaker). Of course I can't find that thread now. I cycled all the breakers and the charger came back on. The next day batteries were low again and the charger was showing "Float". I cycled all breakers again, loosened and retightened the wire screws and "polished" the contacts. The next day same as before. I replaced all breakers on that side of the breaker box. Same result. The charger comes on after an approximate 30 second delay. Amps rise from 0 to 5, display switches from Float to Bulk and the voltage rises to 14-14.5. But it only stays on for about 2 minutes.

What next?

Thanks,

Tom

[jacwjames]

Do you know which inverter you have.

One thing to check is to make sure the main large fuse is good and that your disconnect is good.  Use a multimeter and check voltage from the batteries, through the disconnect, and through the large fuse. 

EMS system has to do with load shedding when on a 30 amp shore power supply.  All the breakers have to be on for the system to work.  If they aren't you won't see the amps displayed on the load meter.  I don't think it would affect your charging circuit. 

I have an RV2012 Trace inverter, there are 2 breakers in the main service panel that send power to the inverter.  The inverter then has two circuits that provide power to the subpanel.   For the inverter to charge the two breakers in the main panel must be on. 

[Tom Cherry]

Jim is spot on.  However, as a point of information, the AC panel really has no impact on the functionality of the Inverter.  The comment about breakers being on pertain to the Energy Management System.  The EMS load sheds certain 120 circuits.  They are the AC’s and your water heater and such.  The EMS does NOT ashes the inverter.  YES, leaving all the breakers on is a must, but that should not impact the inverter, other than keeping the 30A breaker ON.  When you turned the breaker on and off, all that was accomplished was to restart it.

As Jim says, please supply the name and model of the inverter.  Download the manual and then read up on how to do a “reset”.  Not familiar with the Trace, but the Magnum has two different reset procedures.  If it gets into a funk, like you have described, it usually need to be reset and then restarted.  You must do the resets and then if it does not fix it, then you probably have internal issues with the Inverter.  There may be other issues, like a defective remote (the monitor you are reading) or something connected to the inverter.

That’s about it.  Give us some info on the inverter and then folks can help.

[tcbrow]

The Trace Legend is Model L1512 SB B20D with the RV-9 remote display. Converter output is 1500 watts. The 2 breakers on the unit are on. I'll get to the other checks tomorrow between rain showers. I have a general Trace manual that covers the Legend series and 2 others but there is no reset procedure shown. I'll look for a more specific manual online in the morning. I've had this for  almost 3 years now and I keep it plugged into 20 amp shore power. I've never used the converter side, only the charger.

In the picture there is a black square at the bottom that says Battery Charger and 15 amp. It looks like a switch but I can't switch it. Is this a switch? a fuse? 

[tcbrow]

A better pic of the switch/fuse. Like I said, it looks like a switch but it won't switch. The "15 amp" tells me it might be a fuse holder but it won't open.

I don't really need the converter, just the charger. I may temporarily put my 2 bank marine charger on it. It is 4- 6 volt batteries with each pair wired in series for 12 volts and the pairs wired parallel to boost amps. If I put the 2 bank charger on (1 bank/pair)  do I have to disconnect the parallel connection?

Any recommendations for a replacement unit that would be able to use the RC-9 remote?  They connect using a 6 conductor phone-type cable.

[tcbrow]

Rereading my posts I realize I've been typing converter instead of inverter. 

I don't know what happened to the type font on my last post.

[jacwjames]

The button you refer to is a circuit breaker, my Trace RV2012 has the a similar button.  I believe it pops out when it trips, press it back in to reset. 

Here is a link to the Trace website, at the bottom there are a number of manuals,

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/387936/Trace-Engineering-Legend-I.html?page=2#manual

[Tom Cherry]

Jim beat me to it, but here is actually a better, I think, link to the manual.  I don’t “use” the “Manuals” site.

https://www.altestore.com/static/datafiles/Others/Xantrex_TR_Operation_Manual.pdf

NOW…..I will give you some background on the inverter later on.  BUT THAT IS NOT….I THINK….the issue…..so read on.

You have a DEAD, actually dying, CO detector.  These have a service life. Your batteries are probably fine or at least are being charged. You PROBABLY need a NEW CO detector.  Odds are your up front Propane detector, located in the baseboard under your stove is dead or will be dead soon.  I usually replace BOTH at the same time.  You can get the model and name info off the units.  These are what I recently ordered.  These are the latest models.  Colors may vary…

MTI Industries 40-442-P-BR Safe T Alert 40 Series Professional Propane/LP Gas Alarm - Flush Mount, Brown

Safe T Alert 65-542-WT Classic Carbon Monoxide Alarm - 12V, 65 Series Flush Mount, White.

I think one was $110 and the other was $85, but the prices on Amazon vary all over the map.  MTI says to buy on Amazon…..cheaper.

THAT’S THE REAL ISSUE.

OK…your test.  Disconnect your shore power.  Then you should still have power to the outlets.  Plug in something.  Your 1500 Watt inverter is marginal for the microwave.  I have a 2000 watt and I never run it on the inverter….I start my Genny.

Your TV and such should work.  Look at the Trace inverter.  It should be reading in the 12.5 volts….it may say “inverting” or displaying an amp range.  No ideas how it displays when inverting or running off battery.

We have NO IDEA on the age and condition of your house batteries….so how long they will last is a crap shoot.  But, I suspect the issue is a dying detector.  If you can run the TV or other small appliance (your interior ceiling and all house lights are ALSO 12 VDC and now running off the battery), your INVERTER is find.

What you need to understand is that there is a 30 amp 120 VAC breaker that goes TO the inverter or supplies power for charging AND aid also your interior HOUSE outlet circuits.  When you have incoming power, the inverter’s INTERNAL automatic Transfer Switch just routes or sends  power to these outlets.  

Your inverter is capable of inverting or supplying from your batteries 1,500 watts.  That is the same as MOST 15 Amp home circuits.  So you only have ONE.  That will power your microwave…..but not much else.

If you scan or scroll through the manual, you are SUPPOSED auto have a 30 Amp breaker.  That 30 A breaker can supply 3,600 Watts or power.  That is like having TWO 15 amp circuits.  So, you have two 15 amp circuits when the inverter is “passing through” the incoming shore power.  BUT, when it switches to INVERTING, it only supplies you with 1,500.  If the Inverter goes bad, you HAVE NO POWER to the internal outlets.  So…make sure that sinks in.  Yes, you are using the inverter ALL the time, it is passing through power….not inverting it.

Try the test.  If you have house lights and TV and all your interior outlets work, then it is the CO detector.

Let us know….

[tcbrow]

Thanks, I'd already found that manual site. They have a Series II manual but not a Series I. I have a general manual covering 3 different models but it is not very specific. 

If that thing is a breaker it has not popped out. The fact that it shows 15 amp tells me it's a fuse or a breaker.

I'm beginning to think I just need to replace the whole thing. As I said, I don't need an inverter just a charger but I figure the next owner will be expecting an inverter in there. Looking for replacement recommendations.

[tcbrow]

Tom Cherry, The CO detector was chirping because of a low battery situation. Each series wired pair was reading about 7.6 volts on my hand held volt meter. As soon as I charged the batteries with an external charger the chirping stopped. The Trace will not maintain the voltage on the hiuse bank. It was 11 volts (on the RC-9 remote display) last evening and it was showing "Float". I should have been showing "Bulk".

The inverter will not provide 120vac but that could be the low battery voltage kicking it off. Try to turn it on and the LED starts fast blinking immediately. My manual says fast blink=shutdown. As I said, I've never used it before so I don't know if it was working before. I'm pretty sure I've turned it on before but I don't recall ever seeing the fast blink.

[Rikadoo]

How about this, use a external battery charger, and recharge the batteries with it. Test them, an if ok Then connect a VOLTMETER to the batteries an plug in the coach, wait like a hour an see if it holds the voltage or settles, then start putting on a load an see if it keeps up, if not diagignose from that point, the objective is to save the batteries, cause if there lead flooded or gel the longer there dead or cycled to dead the faster they will crap out all together.

The inverters have a thermal overide in that if lets say a battery goes south an begins shorting internally it will become too much resistance to overcome, and will overheat the overide causing low or non operation. Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater, rule out possable battery issues 1st.

[Tom Cherry]

52 minutes ago, tcbrow said:

Tom Cherry, The CO detector was chirping because of a low battery situation. Each series wired pair was reading about 7.6 volts on my hand held volt meter. As soon as I charged the batteries with an external charger the chirping stopped. The Trace will not maintain the voltage on the hiuse bank. It was 11 volts (on the RC-9 remote display) last evening and it was showing "Float". I should have been showing "Bulk".

The inverter will not provide 120vac but that could be the low battery voltage kicking it off. Try to turn it on and the LED starts fast blinking immediately. My manual says fast blink=shutdown. As I said, I've never used it before so I don't know if it was working before. I'm pretty sure I've turned it on before but I don't recall ever seeing the fast blink.

OK….the chirping is also a sign it is going bad (memory) or maybe a blinking light.

No offense to Rickadoo, but only 7 VDC means that you have lost cells.  Each cell, totally discharged, but NOT shorted out, MUST deliver almost 2 VDC …actually 1.92.  So, you have batteries with shorted out cells.  They will not recharge properly.  I really think your Inverter is working…

BOTTOM LINE.  Your house bank or at least some of them areiSHOT.  Here’s how I or you know.  There is a State of Charge table in the Trojan manual.  It is FOR Trojans, so the voltages might be a tiny bit different for other brands.  I have used the Interstate tables before…..so they work.

YES…the TRACE….probably is cutting out.  When that happens, the ATS inside the Trace has to have a “reasonable facsimile” of a 12 VDC battery.  So, here is what I would do.

TURN OFF both battery switches.  UNPLUG the Shore.  I would tell you to cover (use a tarp or blanket) a solar panel as well as trip the Generator circuit breaker up front, but since we’re on DC….don’t sweat it.

Take a picture of the house bank.  Trivial, but some folks get mixed up when doing this….so a picture is good.  Make sure you can see the colors and the polarity of the house Bank.  PERSONALLY, I would take a piece of tape (painters, masking, etc.) and look at the house bank.  On the Negative side (black to the first battery and a jumper to negative on the next).  THEN about a piece of tape on the end of each middle jumper that is attached to the POSITIVE of the two that have the BIG a jumper from Neg to NEG.  That identifies where the jumper goes when you finish.  Pictures NEXT.

Remove the two Center jumpers.  That breaks the series connections.  NOW measure EACH battery.  If the battery is fully discharged, it will still measure in the High 5’s to low 6’s.  TRUST ME….this happened to me.  If you get 4.5 or so or 2.3 or so…..that battery has a shorted out cell.  It ain’t gonna work.  You should have read at least 11.5 with an almost dead set of batteries.

Here is what you need.  You need TWO batteries that have at least 5.75 VDC.  Then you get rid or pull out the other two.  These MAY a work for a day or at least a while.  I ran 2 GOOD batteries with no issue.  Hook the two batteries back up.  Keep the heavy duty side jumpers out…and install one center jumper.  Big black NEG to battery 1 Neg.  Then jumper from Battery 1 POS to Battery 2 NEG.  Battery 2 Pos goes to the big RED Positive cable.  

Then, turn back on the battery cutoff switches.  Measure the voltage across the Big cables….hopefully you have more than 11.5 VDC.  Plug in the shore.  Your inverter should work and you are reading good voltage.

NOW…see how long it lasts.  If the two batteries that were reading at least 5.75 are charging, they MAY last.  Or NOT.

OR…if all the batteries read low….and NONE is above 5.75…..TIME TO GO SHOPPING.  I like TROJAN T-105.  Most golf cart shops have them.  Folks buy interstates at Costco or Sam’s.  Do NOT buy a “combo” starting and deep cycle one from Walmart,  you need a battery that is 6 VDC and has a Reserve or listed amp hour rating of 220 or 225.  Some folks use Costco Duracells.  That would be the ONLY 3 that I would buy, unless I was going to sell the MH….and I would pay extra for Trojans.  Do some online googling for RV or Golf cart…dealers,  use the Trojan dealer locator.  Right now, no one is buying Golf,Cart batteries….so you might catch a deal.  They are probably in the $175 range…

OK….you can’t get them today.  Your Workaround is this.  Leave the two batteries in place….leave the middle jumper out…  get a pair of jumper cables.  Hook the Positive from the Chassis to the positive of the one battery.  Same for the Negative.  NOW, your Inverter “sees” a GOOD a set of Batteries.  It does NOT know the the difference.  It will work fine.  This is ACTUALLY like pushing in your BOOST switch and somehow taping it down….

THEN….source good batteries.  When you go to get them, remove the jumpers….actually you only need the positive, but the negative ensures good connection…

Leave the house battery switch OFF..

 

[Larry Laursen]

The inverter has a "protection circuit" to prevent damage and will not charge fully discharged batteries.  In that case you need to connect an external charger to bring the batteries up to a state that will the inverter to charge.  I have been there and done that.  The circuit breaker marked 15 amps is for the charging circuit.  I had one go bad also on my 2000 Endeavor.  You need to get the batteries charged some, then start the inverter and check the voltage at the batteries to see if it is charging.  If it's not charging, then start by replacing the 15 amp. circuit breaker.  This can be a challenge.

[Guest Ray Davis]

38 minutes ago, Larry Laursen said:

The inverter has a "protection circuit" to prevent damage and will not charge fully discharged batteries.  In that case you need to connect an external charger to bring the batteries up to a state that will the inverter to charge.  I have been there and done that.  The circuit breaker marked 15 amps is for the charging circuit.  I had one go bad also on my 2000 Endeavor.  You need to get the batteries charged some, then start the inverter and check the voltage at the batteries to see if it is charging.  If it's not charging, then start by replacing the 15 amp. circuit breaker.  This can be a challenge.

Good sugestion Larry, I have done that too, however most chargers today have that same protective circuit so they don't want to charge either        What I have done is use jumper cables hooked to my pu to get it started,

[Tom Cherry]

As a status update, Tom and I spent some time on the phone.  We believe his house bank is toast.  He has had the MH for 3 years and the House bank came with it.  He also has two 12 VDC a deep cycle marine batteries out of his boat and will charge them up with his auxiliary charger, then install.  BTW, he did charge the MH  bank and they only would read 11.5 VDC and all the cells were in the RED or BAD zone on his simple Hydrometer.

Once he has charged up the marine batteries, he will install and knock off the surface charge and test with his “red/yellow/green) hydrometer as well as measure the voltage.  That will tell him their SOC.  With them attached to his Trace Legend, then let the Trace run for a week or so and see.  He was getting a “flashing” light on the Trace….that may be normal as his manual is “simplistic” at best.  By powering down and the starting with good charged batteries, he can monitor.  If all is well after a week or so, then probably shopping for batteries.

Thats it..  if anyone has some experience with the Trace Legend and the “lights” and such, please PM Tom.  This thread is now in the “complex” stage.  Any help is always appreciated….but the step by step posting can be confusing.

After Tom gets more info and facts, I have asked him to post a status or whatever.  Hopefully, all is well with his inverter and having a good set of house batteries will resolve it.

Thanks for all the input and information….we always learn a lot….especially when it is over the phone.

[tcbrow]

In case you didn't see my separate update, it seems that the problem has been solved. A bad Battery Temperature Sensor was preventing the inverter/charger from working properly. As soon as I unplugged it everything went back to normal. Of course this was discovered as I was starting to remove the Trace unit to replace it with my brand new Magnum unit.

So, today's lesson, check the BTS for proper operation before ordering a new inverter/charger.

Thanks to all that contributed.

[Tom Cherry]

23 minutes ago, tcbrow said:

In case you didn't see my separate update, it seems that the problem has been solved. A bad Battery Temperature Sensor was preventing the inverter/charger from working properly. As soon as I unplugged it everything went back to normal. Of course this was discovered as I was starting to remove the Trace unit to replace it with my brand new Magnum unit.

So, today's lesson, check the BTS for proper operation before ordering a new inverter/charger.

Thanks to all that contributed.

can't knock success....GOOD DEAL

[bonfield]

The coach stays inside a closed garage and is plugged in.We were getting ready for our first trip of the year and the coach would not start.i checked the batteries and they were dead so i replaced them.Drove the coach 450 miles and them plugged into campsite 120 volts.Checked meter inside coach and the house batteries were showing good charge but the starting batteries did not read anything.Tried to restart coach and it wouuld not,checked the new batteries and they are dead so pulled them out and took them to advanced auto parts and they could not get any reading at all on eithhier of the batteries.They replaced them under warranty buut i am still parked and they are off at the disconnect swith.Any ideas.

[jacwjames]

I'd take your meter and start checking from the battery all the way to the solenoid that ties the two battery banks together.   Make sure you are getting power through the disconnect, I had my chassis battery disconnect fail and lost all power, but you said you were able to start the coach with a new battery so it's probably good. 

If your house charging system is working I'm not sure if it keeps your chassis batteries charged but either way you chassis battery shouldn't have drained that fast unless your alternator wasn't working, did it show charging on the dash gauge at ~14 volts?

I looked in the electrical wiring diagrams and there is not one for a 2004 Endeavor, not sure what Monaco coach is equivalent to (my coach is equivalent to an Imperial so no help there). 

[Tom Cherry]

12 hours ago, bonfield said:

The coach stays inside a closed garage and is plugged in.We were getting ready for our first trip of the year and the coach would not start.i checked the batteries and they were dead so i replaced them.Drove the coach 450 miles and them plugged into campsite 120 volts.Checked meter inside coach and the house batteries were showing good charge but the starting batteries did not read anything.Tried to restart coach and it wouuld not,checked the new batteries and they are dead so pulled them out and took them to advanced auto parts and they could not get any reading at all on eithhier of the batteries.They replaced them under warranty buut i am still parked and they are off at the disconnect swith.Any ideas.

You need to review your Owner's manual.  I don't know "What gauges" you have, but somewhere, I would suspect that you have a dash volt meter.

I would do the following.

Measure the Voltage across the two (in parallel, I assume)....with the Chassis Disconnect Switch OFF.

Measure the Voltage with the Disconnect Switch ON.

Start the Motor Home.  Immediately check the voltage (have some one turn it on while you are at the bank.  

Then continue to read the voltage or monitor it for the next 5 minutes or so.  Most of the Monaco's will read a lower chassis voltage during the warmup and maybe 2 minutes or so....go up.  That MAY depend on the ambient and whether the heater intake coil is on.  BUT, after 5 minutes....you should see a stable voltage.  Most run in the high 13's or even 14.0/1.  If the voltage is the same as when NOT running, then you have an issue with the Alternator (which probably has an internal voltage regulator) not charging.  You MOST LIKELY have the Leece Neville Alternator.  Take it to a GOOD and TRUSTED (preferably a heavy duty truck, bus, garbage truck, etc) shop.

If it is defective, then have them overhaul it.  They MUST order all new parts....including ALL NEW DIODES (don't just "test and say OK").  Whatever parts they need MUST come from an Authorized Leece Neville distributor and be OEM parts....not aftermarket.  The shop can call LN and the tech support will give them the exact PN's to rebuild.  That, generically, will be a new Voltage Regulator, Diodes and Brushes......probably some more....but I don't know....but the LN tech support will advise.

Do NOT let them install an aftermarket unit.....your system is a "funky" kind and we have had more folks end up with a failed new unit because it was NOT a direct replacement. You have a DUVAC system....there are files on converting the system to a conventional charging system, but many shops THINK they know what is going on and tell the customer he is "misinformed".....then they drive a few hundred miles.....no charging and then they drive  back.  The most cost effective solution is a complete overhaul with LN OEM parts by a qualified shop.

NOW....if the alternator is NOT charging, you can do this as a TEMPORARY FIX.  You can add a Jumper cable from the House to the Positive of the Chassis and that will keep the Chassis charged while parked....

Good Luck...

[Larry Laursen]

12 hours ago, bonfield said:

The coach stays inside a closed garage and is plugged in.We were getting ready for our first trip of the year and the coach would not start.i checked the batteries and they were dead so i replaced them.Drove the coach 450 miles and them plugged into campsite 120 volts.Checked meter inside coach and the house batteries were showing good charge but the starting batteries did not read anything.Tried to restart coach and it wouuld not,checked the new batteries and they are dead so pulled them out and took them to advanced auto parts and they could not get any reading at all on eithhier of the batteries.They replaced them under warranty buut i am still parked and they are off at the disconnect swith.Any ideas.

Jeff, The charging system on the 2004 Endeavor does not charge the chassis batteries from shore power as it came from the factory.  You need to install an aftermarket device to charge the chassis battery while on shore power.

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