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Time to buy some batteries - Looking for input


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On 12/27/2022 at 5:51 PM, Tom Cherry said:

Comment and maybe you misspoke.  The Typical Battery Boost 200 Amp Big Boy is NOT designed to "Take 12 VDC and stay engaged".  The coil is designed for BRIEF doses of FULL 12 VDC.  If it was wired incorrectly (factory or some later person), then it failed due to negligence.  The Big Boy is designed to work from a separate control board or a BIRD Diesel2 module. On the Dynasties and above, there is a separate control Intellitec board.  The relay (Solenoid) is given a quick shot of 12 VDC (like you would with the boost switch).  If the battery voltage differentials are met and there is charging needed, either way, then that signal is PULSED (I think) on the Dynasty.  The result is a reduced voltage signal.  That is called the HOLDING VOLTAGE.  If is typically, if you measured it with a VOM, in the 3 - 8 (or maybe lower top end) VDC range.  That voltage will keep the Big Boy Coil engaged or energized and the coil is not damaged.  

On the later lower food chain, like my Camelot, there is an Intellitec BIRD (Diesel2) Module.  It puts out a lower holding voltage.  Generically comparing them, as several of us have done, the Big Boy "Hums and Heats up LESS" using the Intellitec BIRD Module than the Dynasty Intellitec control module....as the Dynasty puts out, a "pulse that reads higher" on a VOM.

I don't know a LOT about the device or issues you have, but we have MANY experienced and knowledgeable electrical members that are using the Blue Seas ACR instead of the various other "BiDirectional" configurations.  It has proven to be robust and it also supports a higher continuous amperage rating.

The #6 connector, if I understand it, is a "Jumper Cable" between the two banks.  This is undersized for the application.  You can get up to or around 100+ amps from the Magnum inverters and your MH may have a 160 Amp Alternator. The #6 is rated for maybe 65/70 amps.  I actually "bypassed" my Big Boy for storage this winter as it was just sitting there and "humming".  I disconnected the BIRD Diesel2 "Solenoid" or the control wire and then used a #2 jumper between the two banks.  I have 30 amp power at my storage.  I know one other person, with an extremely high level of understanding of the systems and how they work who uses a copper "Tube" between the Big Boy contacts and disconnects the control lead so the Big Boy is open.

Just passing this on for your information as well as others to prevent them from thinking that you can leave a full 12 VDC on the Big Boy.  You CANNOT....it will burn UP....as many have found out by "Wedging" a golf "Tee" under the spring loaded Boost Switch.

Thanks....

Thank you Tom Cherry,

Moderator's EDIT.  Tom and myself have discussed this offline and there is a SUBTLE difference in the "Generic" name of the Battery Boost Solenoid.  Like calling tissues "Kleenex".  In the early MH, there was a Trombetta Solenoid with WAS RATED for Continuous coil voltage.  Then Monaco evolved and adopted the Intellitec "BIG BOY".  It was actually TRADE NAMED BIG BOY.  But, every Battery Boost Solenoid is NOT a BIG BOY.  So, one MUST know what was originally installed or is in there now.  

What makes it EVEN more confusing.....there were TWO models of the BIG BOY.  The 100Amp one was OK for Continuous 12 VDC voltage on the coil....but the 200 Amp one was NOT.  It required a lower (pulsed actually) voltage and that kept the coil from burning up.

Meanwhile, Intellitec has come out with a 200 Amp LATCHING solenoid....which by definition....does NOT have any COIL CURRENT....once it is Engaged and Magnetically LATCHED ON....  There may be a pop quiz....LOL....

SO....that was the confusion....

I am pretty sure that my BIG BOY 200 Amp Trombetta is designed as a full time engaged Charger relay from the Chassis battery over to the House Batteries.  It is both my factory charging relayl and my manual BOOST control.  Without hitting my boost button, it activates on about a 10 or 15 minute delay,  from the IRD--Ignition Relay Delay, off a small board that can be replaced with the BIRD ---bidirectional control, but it seems that it was designed for conventional battery chemistry.    The Big Boy Battery Isolator Relay Delay by Intellitec is rated for 200 amps continuous and draws about 5.? amps to keep it engaged.  The IRD may have cycled to protect over draw, but I do not know.    Mine might have fried when I first put the LiFePo's in there, or might have failed with the prior owner who was dedicated to being a full hook up guy and would not necessarily have noticed on  hauls from hook up at home to hook up at camp as he had a pretty big set of AGM's in there.  It looks like I could disassemble that Big Boy  and repair it but I just do not want it.  BTW, I realize on direct charge the factory 2-0 would be appropriate but I run the 6GA from chassis system to the 40 amp DC to DC. and from there to the House batteries.   I think Renogy showed 8GA for my short run, but I like overbuilt and fused or breakers for everything.

I did not want the BIG BOY  Boost Solenoid (200 Amp) to charge the House batteries after I went to LiFePo because when SOC gets low on 600 amps of LiFePo's  they can theoretically pull 600 amps charge and that would suck that alternator up to full rated 160 amp output and keep it there until it smokes.  Victron has a video where they demonstrate a stock truck Alternator burning up from high continuous draw to lithium batteries and they promote a certain heavy duty alternator with a heavier duty cycle and some cut off protection.   Anyway the LiFePo chemistry offers near Zero resistance and CAN smoke a mere mortal alternator, thus BattleBorn promotes a battery charge isolator designed for LifePo, a Li-Bim 225, that cycles on and off to protect the charging circuit and others offer the DC to DC charger which limits how much charge is available and thus how much you can SUCK out of your alternator.   In my case my Renogy, 40 amp DC to DC, will put out 39 -41 amps and seems to draw about 50 amps by my crude measurement,  off the chassis system/alternator in order to do that.   Between that and 600 watts of solar I am always fully charged when I get to my destination.

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3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

he #6 connector, if I understand it, is a "Jumper Cable" between the two banks.  This is undersized for the application.  You can get up to or around 100+ amps from the Magnum inverters and your MH may have a 160 Amp Alternator. The #6 is rated for maybe 65/70 amps.  I actually "bypassed" my Big Boy for storage this winter as it was just sitting there and "humming".  I disconnected the BIRD Diesel2 "Solenoid" or the control wire and then used a #2 jumper between the two banks.  I have 30 amp power at my storage.  I know one other person, with an extremely high level of understanding of the systems and how they work who uses a copper "Tube" between the Big Boy contacts and disconnects the control lead so the Big Boy is open.

Let me clear the air one more try.   The 6ga wire is from Chassis bank to 40 amp DC to DC charger. then from the 40 am DC-Dc over to the house battery.   Not a jumper cable. it is just a feed to the limited draw (maxes out at 50 amps) of the DC to DC charger.   A 6ga jumper to charge my house bank off the Chassis bank would be smoking in minutes and a deadly fire risk.   It is just the wiring to install the "Renogy Appliance"---which happens to be a 40 amp charger using max 50 amps from the alternator.   In other words that wire pulls about 650 watts at peak.   A short run of 6 GA wire can handle well over 1200 watts of 12vdc continuously.

And TOM CHERRY with your comment about the charging relay, you have me going back to the book and my rig,(and the schematic to relearn what by your statement may be my very bad understanding)  but pretty sure in the day of all batteries being similar lead acid chemistry my 4 house golf cart battery system was designed to charge full time through a TROMBETTA 200 amp continuous duty relay.  (see already I was wrong, the BIG BOY which intellitec rates for 200 amps continuous is a latching relay that requires reversing polarity to open and close it.  The Trombetta which I have is non latching) My Trombetta is clearly fed by the Boost Button, but that just overrides the Ignition Relay Delay and pushes the relay closed using the same 12 ignition on, wire that is fed by the IRD.   By design the IRD feeds full time power to that relay which is the only charging link I find in the original coach wiring to begin charging the house batteries after the Chassis battery has 15 minutes to catch up from starting.  I think the golf Tee situation sets up a different situation, where starting and running  100% through the Charging Relay when the chassis batteries are  dead rather than just an added boost for ordinary starting when the Engine battery is low.  My coach calls for two chassis batteries  with minimum combined 1500 cold cranking amps.  The 200 amp continuous rating surely cannot take too much of that full starter amperage.  But the ordinary charging of two golf cart batteries is not likely to pull that massive a draw from my 160 amp alternator and surely is within the  200 amp continuous duty cycle rating of the Trombetta 200 amp relay (or the Big Boy which some coaches evidently have but mine evidently does not).  Both are rated for 200 amps with a 100% duty cycle.

Edited by TomV48
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2 hours ago, TomV48 said:

Thank you Tom Cherry,

I am pretty sure that my BIG BOY is designed as a full time engaged Charger relay from the Chassis battery over to the House Batteries.  It is both my factory charging relayl and my manual BOOST control.  Without hitting my boost button, it activates on about a 10 or 15 minute delay,  from the IRD--Ignition Relay Delay, off a small board that can be replaced with the BIRD ---bidirectional control, but it seems that it was designed for conventional battery chemistry.    The Big Boy Battery Isolator Relay by Intellitec is rated for 200 amps continuous and draws about 5.? amps to keep it engaged.  The IRD may have cycled to protect over draw, but I do not know.    Mine might have fried when I first put the LiFePo's in there, or might have failed with the prior owner who was dedicated to being a full hook up guy and would not necessarily have noticed on  hauls from hook up at home to hook up at camp as he had a pretty big set of AGM's in there.  It looks like I could disassemble that Big Boy  and repair it but I just do not want it.  BTW, I realize on direct charge the factory 2-0 would be appropriate but I run the 6GA from chassis system to the 40 amp DC to DC. and from there to the House batteries.   I think Renogy showed 8GA for my short run, but I like overbuilt and fused or breakers for everything.

I did not want the BIG BOY to charge the House batteries after I went to LiFePo because when SOC gets low on 600 amps of LiFePo's  they can theoretically pull 600 amps charge and that would suck that alternator up to full rated 160 amp output and keep it there until it smokes.  Victron has a video where they demonstrate a stock truck Alternator burning up from high continuous draw to lithium batteries and they promote a certain heavy duty alternator with a heavier duty cycle and some cut off protection.   Anyway the LiFePo chemistry offers near Zero resistance and CAN smoke a mere mortal alternator, thus BattleBorn promotes a battery charge isolator designed for LifePo, a Li-Bim 225, that cycles on and off to protect the charging circuit and others offer the DC to DC charger which limits how much charge is available and thus how much you can SUCK out of your alternator.   In my case my Renogy, 40 amp DC to DC, will put out 39 -41 amps and seems to draw about 50 amps by my crude measurement,  off the chassis system/alternator in order to do that.   Between that and 600 watts of solar I am always fully charged when I get to my destination.

OK....so we are on the same page....and my comment was to make sure that folks did NOT misinterpret your comment about 12 VDC.  From the top

Your MH, per the sales brochure and the owner's manual was equipped with a MOMENTARY CONTACT Battery Boost Solenoid.  I don't know the particular brand, but if it is "Called" a Big Boy Solenoid then most interpret that as an INTELLITEC High Capacity Solenoid.  There are TWO styles of them.  One is the 100 AMP model and will NOT burn up.  But the most commonly used, due to the high current draw as well as the ability to BOOST or help start the engine was the 200 AMP model.  That Model is NOT for continuous duty.  Read the Specs on it... FROM THE LINK BELOW....

The 200 amp version is not a continuous duty unit and requires an Intellitec Isolator - diesel controller to prevent it from overheating when it is used for continuous duty.

 

https://intellitec.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/53-90000-000-Prod-Spec-Battery-Isolators.pdf

Now, Intellitec DID have a Latching Style one that folks sometimes confuse and also do not fully understand.  The Latching style is what is used for the Salesman's Solenoid.  It has a different switching configuration.  It requires a Double Throw with CENTER OFF position.  Push it one way....it latches ON....the other way....OFF.  

The battery boost switch (refer to pages 63-64 and 312 in your manual) is a MOMENTARY ON Switch.  It is designed to work with the Momentary Intellitec (or equivalent) 77-90006-120 200A Solenoid.  That SAME solenoid was used later on with a BIRD module or an Intellitec Control board for BiDirectional charging.  To the BEST of my knowledge, a LATCHING style solenoid was never used for this purpose.  Therefore for the Big Boy 200 A (Non-Latching) to work, there had to be an initial 12 VDC pulse to energize or close the solenoid.  IF it was to be used for Bi-Directional Charging, then the control voltage had to be dropped by some "device" to keep the solenoid coil energized, but with a LOWER holding voltage.

If you read the instructions for the OEM Boost Solenoid (pages 63-64) in your manual, it specifically says that DAMAGE WILL OCCUR IF THE MOMENTARY CONTACT SWITCH IS HELD ON.  Thus the warning to folks as several folks have posted here to just use a golf "TEE" or some other wedge and leave it energized.  The Boost Switch is typically powered from the HOUSE battery and has a  full 12 VDC.  If the House bank is drained....it is useless as it will NOT energize.  BUT, if you look at the additional circuits needed to also utilize the Boost BIG BOY, there is a lower voltage control device that prevents the coil from burning up.

NOW....Whatever was modified or removed or reconfigured on your Ambassador and how it is wired now is somewhat irrelevant FOR MY POINT and also to PROVIDE THE CORRECT OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS for the Boost Solenoid.  That was my POINT.  You can NOT provide or hookup the BOOST SOLENOID with a continuous 12 VDC....or it will burn up the coil.  Your comment about "taking apart" probably will NOT work, if the coil has been burned up due to incorrectly rewiring your solenoid from the original HR design.  Folks do, routinely, disassemble and clean the contacts, with good success.

I hope this clears up my post as we can not allow posting of information that will damage a component.  

Thanks for understanding.....If this needs further comment, please PM me and/or  we can talk.

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OK Tom Cherry  You have me back to reading and studying the situation when day light comes Saturday morning

 

Thank you Sir for your continuous attention to my education.  God knows I need all the help I can get

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11 hours ago, TomV48 said:

OK Tom Cherry  You have me back to reading and studying the situation when day light comes Saturday morning

 

Thank you Sir for your continuous attention to my education.  God knows I need all the help I can get

Not trying to test you or grade you.  We ALL learn.  If it makes you feel any better, I always thought and finally got around to reading and "noodling out" that you were NOT supposed to ever, ever.....use the Boost to start.  BUT, then I kept reading Monaco's instructions AND the Intellitec PDF.  

Hidden, or at least not clear to me.....You MUST have a ROBUST House bank and also a BARELY "Can't quite start the engine" Chassis Bank.  The Big Boy's contacts are "strong enough" for a brief HIGH current load....but NOT rated for the Full Load Amperage required to start an engine.  SO....if you have SOME CURRENT (that is why the instructions are to put a Surface Charge on the Chassis), available in the Chassis bank, then you MIGHT pull it off.  BUT, if your Chassis are 100% TOAST, then using the Big Boy to send the full starting current to the Chassis is gonna play havoc with the contacts.

Do you reading.  I would like to edit your posts to "properly define" Continuous Duty....but wanted to you to be on the same page.  PM me after your research so that we are OK with my edit.

YES....we all learn....I was a second year Electrical Engineering student (actually TWICE).  I switched Engineering majors, but I learned a lot about DC and such (Norton and Thevenin...Google them) .....and then was in charge of large maintenance departments and did hands on work with Master Electricians. I also did a lot of process control design as well as power layouts for new factories.  So, MH's were not my first rodeo.....BUT.... I have learned a LOT moderating this forum (and the Yahoo that was the original) and pick up stuff daily.

Good luck with your issues....

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