Electrical...no inverter power to frig receptacle

[n4248z]

2004 Monaco LaPalma with Xantrex Freedom 458 Series Inverter/Charger (2000 watts) modified sine wave. 

When connected to 30amp shore power and refrigerator "on" and cooling I switched the inverter "on" and the inverter went to "standby" mode. When shore power was disconnected did not go to "on" and frig display was "noco". GFI tripped and was reset with generator running (frig runs fine on generator power). The Norcold refrigerator is now the JC Refrigeration AC Electric residential with a compressor and is powered by the bank of four 6 volt batteries when not connected to shore power or running the generator. 

There are 2 receptacles in the outside access behind the refrigerator. The top outlet is labeled "inverter" and that is where the icemaker (I removed the icemaker previously) was plugged into. When the unit was Gas Absorption (ac/propane) the refrigerator was plugged into the bottom outlet. Now the frig is plugged into the top outlet (labeled inverter) and works on either shore power or generator.

On the road I had to run the generator to power the refrigerator. I am connected to 50 amp shore power at my Florida Resort now and the frig is working fine. I am considering removing the GFI outlet and replacing it with a standard receptacle. The breakers on the inverter are not tripped and I have not found any fuses that are blown in the motorhome. 

I know that it is difficult to diagnose from a distance, but any and all assistance will be appreciated. Thank you. 

[Dr4Film]

The telling statement that needs some troubleshooting is why the Inverter did not transfer over to ON from "standby".

That tells me that you need to find out why the internal Inverter transfer switch is not switching from standby mode to inverter mode.

You may have to disassemble the Inverter to find out why. Or call the Xantrex Freedom Inverter Technical support to ask them what they think.

[Tom Cherry]

Richard has a point and there have been some funky things go wrong with inverters.  But, to make sure everyone is on the same page…..

Need to verify or confirm the following.  There are two outlets.  
 

The Bottom one feeds through the AC breaker in the main panel.  It does NOT feed or  go through the inverter.  It was designed to be used for the “ELECTRIC HEAT OPTION”.  

The TOP one is the icemaker.  It DOES go through the Inverter….as the ATS inside the inverter switches it ON, when the Inverter is on…. NOW…the Xantrex MAY be different from the Magnum…..so verify this….  

Typically, there will be TWO a circuits out of an inverter.  One is a NON GFCI and goes as a dedicated circuit to the Microwave.  The other is the GFCI a circuit.  It is needed as there are many outlets that are within reach of the sink.  This is a safety issue and changing or eliminating is NOT recommended.

Here is what I understand….and recommend…

First…Some background.  A compressor style refrigerator will trip a GCFI.  THAT is why the NEC residential code requires a dedicated (NON GFCI) circuit.  So, the tripping of the GCFI is curious.  I would purchase an APPROVED brand of GFCI and see if that fixes it.  The one I trust is an Eaton Wiring Devices unit. Do not get a tamperproof.  It is a 20 AMP GCFI.  Most electrical shops or Amazon sells them.  Hubbell and Leviton are usually OK.  The off brands, especially the Lowe’s Utilitec are not the same quality.  GCFI’s get finicky with age.  Put in a new one.

NOW….if you have TWO Lines on the bottom or the LOAD side of the GFCI, hook only one up.  Use a phone charger and see which receptacles are working.  You may luck out and find that there is one line to the INVERTER (icemaker) receptacle…..if so….then put that line on the top or the LINE (incoming)…..then the refrigerator is NOT on a GFCI. Sometimes a new GFCI is not as sensitive.  

There are always “leaks” in a refrigerator.  The heating element in the ice maker mold will needlessly trip out a GFCI….that is why they are NOT on a protected circuit in your house.

As to the inverter….we just had a person replace one that was thought to be bad….nope.  Try your system again.  If it does not respond, read the manual for the issues or how to do a RESET.  You can kill the battery switches.  Remove the power leads (battery) from the inverter for an hour or so.  There is probably a Battery Temp sensor plugged in.  Disconnect or unplug it.  He didn’t do,that ….and his was shorted….but he has a nice new Shiny magnum and a spare….

so….let it sit…..then reconnect and power back up…

let us know….

 

[Bill R]

3 hours ago, n4248z said:

I am considering removing the GFI outlet and replacing it with a standard receptacle.

I would not do away with the GFI, it is there for your safety.  I did run a dedicated line to my refrigerator from the Line portion of the GFI.  So the GFI still functions, but the refrigerator is not affected by it..

Hope you find out the issue of your refrigerator not working on your inverter. 

[Dave Pumphrey]

Will the other outlets & microwave run on the inverter without gen or shore power?

[Dr4Film]

If the Inverter never gets to the ON phase from Standby, I would suspect that none of his Inverter powered outlets are working.

[Dave Pumphrey]

Thats what I'm thinking, maybe too focused on the fridge. 

 

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, Dave Pumphrey said:

Will the other outlets & microwave run on the inverter without gen or shore power?

Generically…..and the reason it is generic is that not all inverters work the same…

The 30A breaker for the inverter means that you have up to 3,600 Watts of power,  the AC for the breaker comes from either shore or generator..  When there is no shore or generator, the Inverter will invert or supply only (without a larger res refer model) 2000 watts of power.  Regardless of whether on shore or Generator or from the inverter’s internal circuits, the output power of the “inverter” feeds, typically, 2 circuits.  One is the microwave and it is dedicated and NOT GFCI  protected.  The other circuit is the GFCI (typically a receptacle device).  This then controls or protects all internal outlets….

Now, in your Dynasty as well as some Windsors and the newer Dynastiy’s, there MAY (is) be a subpanel and there will be a GFCI breaker in it and not a receptacle GFCI.

OK…on a Magnum Inverter, you have to have, and Magnum says this is 100%, but we have folks who say NOT, a “reasonable facsimile” of a battery.  If the Magnum cannot read or sense sufficient voltage from the Battery, the internal ATS will not allow the shore or generator power to be passed through.  Obviously with a bum bank, there will be NO inverted power, so….in effect, you have no internal outlets or microwave circuits.  Folks have beat their head on the walls when they had good shore or generator power but removed the batteries or the batteries were shorted out or would not read e voltage for the Inverter’s ATS to “switch” and pass through the power.  The internal house circuits on the simple, GFCI in a receptacle, configuration are NOT a on the main AC panel.  In the MH with a second AC or subpanel, one of these breakers is a GFCI….so, same deal.

I can’t speak to a Trace, now Xanterex.  It MAY pass through the AC without a decent battery or removed.

Sometimes folks confuse the overhead lights as being AC (like at home) and say….I got POWER, as in overhead lights, but no outlets….where is the circuit breaker for the outlets.  Their are, on a Magnum, one main INCOMING pin style breaker….and typically two outgoing pin style circuit breakers….

I couldn’t understand if you were commenting or asking a question…..thus the explanation as it is a little confusing to folks that have not had to do trouble shooting…

Anytime you have a GFCI circuit and  plug a compressor driven refrigerator, which may also have a defroster (heating coil) and/or an icemaker, which does have a heater in the mold, you are at risk of tripping it.  The older or the wrong brand replacement, the worse it is. Folks have left their MH (me for instance) and the icemaker on a Dometic gas refer cycled and there was a minor leak…..then it trips the GFCI a and you lose all power.

That is why it is recommended to trade the circuits and try to get a Res Refer on the NON GFCI side.  Many times, there are TWO downstream circuits on the GFCI.  You hook up one and see what is working and not working.  You want the kitchen and bathroom outlets protected.  In many cases, there is a TV circuit and some outlets not within 6 ft of water and that often also is the “icemaker” receptacle in the refrigerator area.  By rewriting, you have a dedicated NON GFCI receptacle and all is well.  That assumes there are no issues impacting the Inverter PCB ATS 

[Dave Pumphrey]

I was asking the OP if his other 120 volt outlets were working on inverter power.

[scottjo02]

I have the same setup in my 02 Knight. JC compressor (120v) and run it off of the top outlet that was from the inverter. My top outlet was INTERMITTENT. It drove me crazy till I found out that wiggling the plug would cause drop out. I put in new residential outlet. 

Scott

 

[Dr4Film]

Haven't heard from the OP in regard to the current status and answers to questions that have been posted.

[n4248z]

I acknowledge all the posts to date. I am not good with electrical tasks. I have replaced receptacles (including the GFCI a few times), I ran the line for the 30 amp rv outlet that I use at my home from existing wiring in my garage, I replaced the inverter a couple years ago with the same as the original and I have helped and watched others working on electric. I am waiting for help from a neighbor who was an electrician for industry. We both have had other things occupying our time recently. The neighbor has been away all day, but I will contact him when he returns. I plan to give him a tour of the inverter, GFCI, refrigerator outlets and bring him up to speed on all the electric as I know it. I will have him read my post and the responses as well.

This morning the 15 amp breaker tripped on the inverter. The outlets were dead. The GFCI did not trip. The refrigerator displayed NOCO. I turned off the frig and reset the breaker. I turned the frig back on and the outlets worked , too. 

I will update and post the results after addressing these issues. Thanks to all.

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, n4248z said:

I acknowledge all the posts to date. I am not good with electrical tasks. I have replaced receptacles (including the GFCI a few times), I ran the line for the 30 amp rv outlet that I use at my home from existing wiring in my garage, I replaced the inverter a couple years ago with the same as the original and I have helped and watched others working on electric. I am waiting for help from a neighbor who was an electrician for industry. We both have had other things occupying our time recently. The neighbor has been away all day, but I will contact him when he returns. I plan to give him a tour of the inverter, GFCI, refrigerator outlets and bring him up to speed on all the electric as I know it. I will have him read my post and the responses as well.

This morning the 15 amp breaker tripped on the inverter. The outlets were dead. The GFCI did not trip. The refrigerator displayed NOCO. I turned off the frig and reset the breaker. I turned the frig back on and the outlets worked , too. 

I will update and post the results after addressing these issues. Thanks to all.

We each have our priorities and schedules as well as working around a “fixer’s” schedules.  There is another topic that you should look at. If the 15 Amp pin breaker is getting finicky or has issues, then here is the poop on a replacement.  Any “electrical chassis” fuse will be the same as the pop out pin breaker if you can’t find one.  I’d use a “slo blo” 15 A glass Buss fuse.  
 

We see lots of issues with inverters.  Constant tripping of a pin CB is not unheard of, but does happen.  Out of curiosity, if you can run a good extension cord to the MH and find a household (your garage may be 20A or aGFCI), I’D try that and see if the NORCOLD TRIPS a standard house breaker.

I’d also pull off the plates where the AC comes in and goes out.  Tighten (power off of course) all the terminal strips.  A loose wire can cause issues.

Next….typically we see 20 amp breakers (outgoing) on the inverter.  If your pin breakers are labeled or stamped 15 or if the manual says that, then the GCFI must be replaced with a compatible (EAton, Hubbell or Leviton) 15 A GFCI….NOT a 20.  

OK…NOW a curiosity.  You stated that you have the JC “electric residential” compressor unit and ir runs on SHORE or Generator unless being from your house battery bank and the inverter.  If you have that unit, then the 15 A CB tripping is more of an oddity.  Per the JC site, the dual compressor is very low amperage.  The 120 VAC unit only pulls 3.3 amps.  Yes, startup amperage on an induction motor will be higher, but no where near the 15 Amp rating.  That is around 400 AC watts.  The DC WATTS IS LOWER….BUT you said it was an AC UNIT.  Have you experimented and was the icemaker on.  If there is a short in the icemaker mold heating element, it would have to be significant to trip a 15 amp CB.

Before I did ANY major trouble shooting, I would recommend one simple thing,  Unplug the shore.  Turn off the Inverter.  Turn off the House battery switch.  Disconnect the positive and negative cables from the inverter.  Unplug the phone line connector labeled BATTERY TEMP SENSOR.  Let it sit for an hour.

do NOT reconnect the Battery Temp Sensor.  Reconnect the positive and negative cables.  Turn on the house battery bank switch.  Plug in or run the generator.  Look at your remote. If you have the manual (youncan download it….I just did), then go to the troubleshooting guide towards the end and verify all LEDS are on and no blinking codes and such.  We just had an individual replace a Xantrex Trace and when he pulled the Battery Temperature Sensor wire, viola….it started working and purred.  He did install the new Magnum pure sine, but, his issues were a shorted BTS AND that would have been a $50 fix.  Probably not, but we are seeing more  BTS issues as equipment’s aging.

Good Luck….

 

[n4248z]

My most recent reply: On Thursday Dec 22, 2022.

On 50 amp shore power. Turned frig "off". Turned inverter "on". Inverter went to "standby" mode. Disconnected shore power. Inverter switched from "standby" to "on". Operations all seem good/normal. * ( At this point I really don't remember how the events progressed. I should have left the inverter "on"). I started the generator. * ( If the inverter was left "on" the inverter should have returned to the "standby" mode).  I defrosted the freezer sections using a hair dryer on the "high" setting. I shut down the generator. * (Again, if I had left the inverter "on", the inverter should have returned to the "on" mode when the power was disconnected.) 

The inverter was "on" *(still, I don't know if I turned the inverter "on" or if had been left "on" during these events) and I started the hair dryer on the "high" setting. The GFCI tripped. I was using the same receptacle outlet for the hair dryer as when I was defrosting located above the countertop just left of the frig. I reconnected shore power and reset the GFCI.

I will get an Eaton or Hubble Non Tamper Proof 15 amp GFCI receptacle and proceed to research the issues to date. With the frig "on" I will trip the GFCI to see if the frig is on that circuit. Either way I will replace the GFCI. I will probably wait to do this when the electrician is available with his multimeter and other tools. 

I probably should have waited for assistance, but I wanted to see what would happen. Notice that I did not use any tools or devices. I will post updates when this saga continues. Thank you and please pray for me. I need all the help i can get.

 

 

[n4248z]

Hopefully my last post concerning this topic. On Thursday January 5, 2023.

 

On 50 amp shore power I tripped the GFCI receptacle. Microwave still had power. Frig displayed "noco". GFCI was rewired so that the frig receptacle is no longer GFCI protected. Now when the GFCI is tripped both Micro and frig stay "on". The inverter is operating correctly and frig is happy.

Thank you to all for your input and advice.