Valve Leak - What is this?

[Frank McElroy]

3 hours ago, Gweedo said:

So I emptied both tanks and zero moisture.  The dash said low air.  The no start was fixed after I put manually put air in the tanks.  so its good

I only put in about 30 lbs, then the engine started and the compressor filled the tanks like normal. 

 

you are right it says not to do that, crap, i'll run it and make sure nothing went wrong.  I thought maybe it was a safety because of low air.  

I am wondering if because we live in the arizona heat I don't get moisture.  

In my manual it says the air system can be charged from an external source.  so I think i'm okay.  I'll have the wife test drive it..LOL

When you say no start without air, did you hear the starter working? 

If not, although it would be really rare, I wonder if a previous owner put on a vane air starter.  If that were the case, you would need air pressure to start the engine.

[96 EVO]

One thing I would try is chock the rear wheels, turn the ignition key to run position (without starting the engine), so now you can read your air gauges. Take the parking brake off. Now, repeatedly pump your brake pedal while watching your gauges. At about 30-40psi, your parking brake knob should pop up, applying your spring brakes.

Pump the brakes a couple more times to get your tanks down to about 20psi, then try starting the engine.

[Tom Cherry]

17 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

When you say no start without air, did you hear the starter working? 

If not, although it would be really rare, I wonder if a previous owner put on a vane air starter.  If that were the case, you would need air pressure to start the engine.

Rare….indeed.  But this one requires 90 PSI and this the one made by IR and designed to work on the Cummins ISL.

https://airstartersdirect.com/vane-air-starters/150bmpe88r53-00l/

Since there was only 30 PSI, and the specs say 90 PSI, I think the answer that it would take a LOT more pressure to work…

Without more facts or knowledge…I’m still at a loss.  I do wonder about the ignition switch?  I do wonder about the condition of the starting batteries?  Did the “wait to start light come on and then go off?  Did all the idiot lights and such come on?  ETC…And the list goes on.  Run your test again.  If it persists…..get the air up and find a qualified shop.  A pressure switch in the line, mistakenly, and controlling the engine starting/ignition is or can be a dangerous condition and may be unsafe.

On my ISL and as many other Monacoers have reported, it is NOT unusual for the air pressure to drop to zero after sitting in storage for a few weeks.  My MH atays level with no corner or side sagging.  Air pressure is 100% ZERO….front and rear.  Same as Ben says, he drains the tanks….and then closes valves and restarts….I also do that….and I have helped many with leveling issues and checked air pressure and such.  No one…not ONE has reported a failure to start with Low Air….

Let us know

 

[Bill R]

@Gweedo  If your coach has an aux compressor with a small surge tank, make sure you drain that tank as well.  That is the only tank I get moisture in because it does not go through a dryer like the other tanks.

[jacwjames]

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Rare….indeed.  But this one requires 90 PSI and this the one made by IR and designed to work on the Cummins ISL.

https://airstartersdirect.com/vane-air-starters/150bmpe88r53-00l/

Since there was only 30 PSI, and the specs say 90 PSI, I think the answer that it would take a LOT more pressure to work…

Without more facts or knowledge…I’m still at a loss.  I do wonder about the ignition switch?  I do wonder about the condition of the starting batteries?  Did the “wait to start light come on and then go off?  Did all the idiot lights and such come on?  ETC…And the list goes on.  Run your test again.  If it persists…..get the air up and find a qualified shop.  A pressure switch in the line, mistakenly, and controlling the engine starting/ignition is or can be a dangerous condition and may be unsafe.

On my ISL and as many other Monacoers have reported, it is NOT unusual for the air pressure to drop to zero after sitting in storage for a few weeks.  My MH atays level with no corner or side sagging.  Air pressure is 100% ZERO….front and rear.  Same as Ben says, he drains the tanks….and then closes valves and restarts….I also do that….and I have helped many with leveling issues and checked air pressure and such.  No one…not ONE has reported a failure to start with Low Air….

Let us know

 

Hadn't seen something like that for 40 years.  Some of the equipment we had underground used air starters and air powered 12 volt generators for lights etc.  But the entire mine was set up with standpipes and 6" & 4" air line almost everywhere, enough volume to use the pneumatic drills.  The older drills were actually driven with winch/tugger air motors chain driven to the wheels. 

That being said I'd find it hard to believe anyone would install an air starter, takes a lot of pressure and volume for them to be able turn over an engine fast enough to start. 

[Gweedo]

22 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

When you say no start without air, did you hear the starter working? 

If not, although it would be really rare, I wonder if a previous owner put on a vane air starter.  If that were the case, you would need air pressure to start the engine.

No, not a sound when I turn the key just all the dash lights.  p=Pretty unlikely the PO did anything to it.  I realize others can start theirs with no air, but it doesn't change the fact I couldn't  I have been really low on air before and didn't have any issues, not until I manually emptied the tanks.  

 

[Frank McElroy]

2 minutes ago, Gweedo said:

No, not a sound when I turn the key just all the dash lights.  p=Pretty unlikely the PO did anything to it.  I realize others can start theirs with no air, but it doesn't change the fact I couldn't  I have been really low on air before and didn't have any issues, not until I manually emptied the tanks.  

 

OK, let's sort this out.  Please post a picture of your engine starter.

[Gweedo]

7 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

OK, let's sort this out.  Please post a picture of your engine starter.

I am down for the count with the C illness, I'll send a pict as soon as I get some energy up

[Gweedo]

I'll try to answer what I can from all of the above.  batteries have no issues.  wait start went off, all lights came on, regarding the 30lb, that is what I manually put in to see if it would start , I didn't want to put in too much air. 

I am down with an illness right now, when I feel up to it, I'll run the rig get it to full air and drain the tanks again to see what happens.  I'll also get a picture of the starter.  I know my manual says I can add air, I just don't want to screw anything up, especially since I have never in 7-years drained the tanks.   

where would I look for the third purge tank? 

[96 EVO]

Where did you find the first two?

If you haven't drained 3 tanks, it's possible you still haven't drained your wet (supply) tank yet!

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

Does a 07 Endeavor have 3 tanks? I know my 05 Ambassador only has two and it was built on the Roadmaster platform that included the Endeavor and Ambassador, I just didn't have the 400HP engine and luxuries of the Endeavor. I think 08 was when Monaco upgraded the platforms.

Gary 05 AMB DST

[Gweedo]

Okay all is well, you got me too curious, I muddled my way out there,  filled the tanks, emptied them and it started with no issue!!  go figure.  in front I have two valves see attached.  I filled the tank the other day with the top one.  What is the bottom one for tow truck?  

regarding the drains, I drained the two valves in the picture and the rear tank.

[96 EVO]

Pat, the top male fitting is where a tow truck would air you up, and, doubles as your wet tank drain. Bottom female, is what you would use for airing tires / beach balls, etc. It looks like they are using the valve on the side of this fitting as your primary dry tank drain.

Garry, one of the two tanks you see is called a 'Split tank'. It has an internal baffle in it. One side is your wet tank (supply tank), the other side is your primary (front) dry tank. It will have two drain fittings on the bottom. The secondary tank (rear), will only have one drain on the bottom.

Edited May 1, 2023 by 96 EVO

[Gweedo]

I don't recall seeing drain fittings on my tanks.  I'll look again.  I was under the impression they drained through the release valves.     

[96 EVO]

45 minutes ago, Gweedo said:

I don't recall seeing drain fittings on my tanks.  I'll look again.  I was under the impression they drained through the release valves.     

Look on the very bottom of each tank. There will be a fitting screwed into the tank, with an air line coming out of it. As I was describing to Gary, one will be a split tank, therefore two drain fittings/ lines.

[Gweedo]

ok i saw the fitting with the line, so pull the line and unscrew fitting or just pull the line.  I'm assuming they are push connectors

[Ivan K]

Don't pull a drain line with pressure in the tank, no telling what may shoot out of it on you. Try to locate the other end of the line, should have a valve, whether manual turn or pull wire. Some have it in the wheel well but could be just about anywhere.

[Frank McElroy]

Look at the front and rear chassis frame areas.  That's where you will find the drain valves that go to the air lines on the bottom of the tanks.

 

[Frank McElroy]

3 hours ago, Gweedo said:

Okay all is well, you got me too curious, I muddled my way out there,  filled the tanks, emptied them and it started with no issue!!  go figure.  in front I have two valves see attached.  I filled the tank the other day with the top one.  What is the bottom one for tow truck?  

regarding the drains, I drained the two valves in the picture and the rear tank.

So, this confirmed that the engine has an electric starter and will start with the air tanks empty.  The previous no start could have been a one off fluke or more than likely a starter motor starting to go bad with a dead spot on the armature.  If this happens again tapping the side of the starter should jar it to a spot were it will work long enough to get it rebuilt.

[96 EVO]

2 hours ago, Gweedo said:

ok i saw the fitting with the line, so pull the line and unscrew fitting or just pull the line.  I'm assuming they are push connectors

You have already found the remote drain valves. 

The fittings screwed to the bottom of the tanks had air lines to the valves you already bled.

1 hour ago, Frank McElroy said:

Look at the front and rear chassis frame areas.  That's where you will find the drain valves that go to the air lines on the bottom of the tanks.

 

Frank, thats exactly what I expected them to be!

Top is the wet tank drain, bottom is the front dry tank drain.

[Tom Cherry]

16 hours ago, Gweedo said:

Okay all is well, you got me too curious, I muddled my way out there,  filled the tanks, emptied them and it started with no issue!!  go figure.  in front I have two valves see attached.  I filled the tank the other day with the top one.  What is the bottom one for tow truck?  

regarding the drains, I drained the two valves in the picture and the rear tank.

Good.  Just remember, never ever yourself or a Tow Truck add “raw” or UNDRIED compressed air to the system….not even once.  If the tow truck  doesn’t have a dryer on the air compressor, get another.

if the intermittent starting issues arise again, they are electrical as in a poor connection or weak batteries or such.  

Keep draining the air system in accordance with your manual.  

No moisture is great, but you need to review the following thread or topic

if you have not serviced the Wabco Air Dryer….do it.  Drain pressure…remove old filter (strap wrench)….replace filter….start engine…bubble test WABCO filter for leaks….do this every 3-4 years.

[Gweedo]

I replace the dryer filter yearly with the trp filter. But after reading some threads I’ll change to the Wabco because it is also a coalescing filter. 

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

17 hours ago, 96 EVO said:

Pat, the top male fitting is where a tow truck would air you up, and, doubles as your wet tank drain. Bottom female, is what you would use for airing tires / beach balls, etc. It looks like they are using the valve on the side of this fitting as your primary dry tank drain.

Garry, one of the two tanks you see is called a 'Split tank'. It has an internal baffle in it. One side is your wet tank (supply tank), the other side is your primary (front) dry tank. It will have two drain fittings on the bottom. The secondary tank (rear), will only have one drain on the bottom.

Ben, thanks for the lesson on the tanks. I'm pretty sure I knew that 17 years ago when I read the owner's manual thoroughly as a new and first time owner. Always wondered why that male fitting always had more moisture when bleeding the tanks. 

Gary 05 AMB DST

[Frank McElroy]

12 minutes ago, Gary 05 AMB DST said:

Ben, thanks for the lesson on the tanks. I'm pretty sure I knew that 17 years ago when I read the owner's manual thoroughly as a new and first time owner. Always wondered why that male fitting always had more moisture when bleeding the tanks. 

Gary 05 AMB DST

BTW, seeing moisture coming out of your wet tank is the first sign that your air dryer is not effectively removing moisture.  Time for a replacement air dryer filter.

[96 EVO]

1 hour ago, Gweedo said:

I replace the dryer filter yearly with the trp filter. But after reading some threads I’ll change to the Wabco because it is also a coalescing filter. 

Well, that would explain you having no moisture in your tanks.

You could reduce that frequency to every 2-3yrs, just crack your drains frequently to check.