Kongsberg CCM Alternative Restoration & Replacement - 2009 Signature

[Brett63]

Totaled and headed to auction.

09 Signature Cambridge IV hit by lightening which took out the Kongsburg chassis multiplex system. No fixes int he world were found.

Good luck to all other Kongsburg owners.

 

 

[Brad Kruchten]

I would love to buy it and try and start over.  What is the buy out?  Bradkruchten@gmail.com 

[tmw188]

That’s awful I hope you you were made as close to whole as possible. Good luck looking fwd.

[Brett63]

32 minutes ago, Brad Kruchten said:

I would love to buy it and try and start over.  What is the buy out?  Bradkruchten@gmail.com 

no idea, it is headed to COPART Auction at one of the Florida sites.

[det944]

What a shame, I hope you were made whole, safe travels.

[Just Jim]

Wiring has always been an issue on these things, but that is just crazy.  No fire or anything from the lightening?  Just a big enough surge to fry it?  I want to upgrade to a little newer coach sometime...  was thinking the 06 or therebouts...   Seems like that is the year that they started with the multiplex wiring for the Dynasty.  I may want to rethink that now.  Good old standard wiring weights a little more, but much easier to replace/repair.

Sorry to hear of your troubles.  Hope it worked out for you at least financially.

 

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Jim Bob said:

Wiring has always been an issue on these things, but that is just crazy.  No fire or anything from the lightening?  Just a big enough surge to fry it?  I want to upgrade to a little newer coach sometime...  was thinking the 06 or therebouts...   Seems like that is the year that they started with the multiplex wiring for the Dynasty.  I may want to rethink that now.  Good old standard wiring weights a little more, but much easier to replace/repair.

Sorry to hear of your troubles.  Hope it worked out for you at least financially.

 

Do one research.  Frank McElroy wrote a piece on the Kongsburg CCM.  That is on the CHASSIS.  That means that simple things like headlights on, tail lights, ll the “regular dash switches” are controlled via one “brain” and then they’re re down stream “dumb” modules that switch or off all the lights and such….among other things.  Problem is….once the brain gets zapped, it can’t be repaired (boards) or replaced.  So, you have to find an exact one for that model and year,  the individual CCM or control modules that are downstream are also non repairable,

Now, yes, starting in 2006, Monaco had a CPU brain for the house functions.  There might have been 5 or so control modules that were downstream and then turned on lights, ceiling fans, pump and such.  On the Dynasty and above many of the items like slides and shades or drop down TV or such were also controlled.  The downstream modules can be replaced with the same PN and there are DIP switches to be set….so it is a DIY easy swap.  The programs for the .dynasty and up were all the same, so if you every lose the CPU, you can get another one and folks can then reflash or restore it,   There is NO comparison to the Kongsburg MPX CCM.  It has been very unreliable since it was introduced.  The Intellitec MPX is more robust and can be repaired.

NOW, there was also a Hybrid Intellitec MPX system used on the 2008 Camelots and Scepters.  It does Not have a programmed brain.  The switches are programmed and it does not control anything but lights and fans and pump….that is what I have.

I BELIEVE that the Kongsburg CCM was a mid to late model year running change….MAYBE a few 2008’s had the system….definitely all 2009…like the RIP one here.

Many of our really talented and expert electronics folks have tackled the CCM as have many repair vendors….to date, no one has been able to come up with techniques to fix the CPU or the downstream control modules, YES….if you totally rewire the Chassis functions….and probably (maybe) replace the switches (with older 2008 circuits…..), one might salvage a MH.  But the backbone cable with all the wires that go to the front and rear is not there….so you have to build your own harness and run it and rewire it.  The CCM’s used a multiple wire cable….unfortunately DAISY CHAINED….like Christmas tree lights.  One CCM output or control module fails….all downstream did,  The Intellitec MPX connection cable runs ll the way around and each key pad or switch is in parallel,,,,so the loop keeps working,

That is my layman’s take and explanation..many posts here with more precise and technical info,..,

NO, I would NOT upgrade to a 2009 .Dynasty or above….but, a 2008….maybe….

[timaz996]

That is so sad that they went with an untested design as this. And so sad that a coach this beautiful is junk.

[tmw188]

Brett63 what Ins Co did you have, and curious how they handled this claim for you? 

[Just Jim]

Thanks Tom,  Great info.

Yes, it is really sad that a coach as nice as this is almost useless...  but Monaco was on the way out at that point and I'm sure suppliers and creditors made decisions difficult regarding the systems that got installed. 

[Brett63]

2 hours ago, tmw188 said:

Brett63 what Ins Co did you have, and curious how they handled this claim for you? 

National General, and yes they were very good to work with. The frustration on both of our parts was getting to the "throwing in the towel" aspect. I knew the end pretty much from the start as I had spent much time and many hours on it before I turned it ovver to the insurance. They were convinced it could be fixed, so we all were somewhat frustrated, but they treated me very well and once it was decided it was a total loss the Total Loss Adjuster was awesome, could not say a bad word at all. Going through the towing part was very aggrevating, but that was all COPART. 

[tmw188]

I bet, you still wanted it towed with care and the proper way.

[Brett63]

57 minutes ago, tmw188 said:

I bet, you still wanted it towed with care and the proper way.

Absolutely, and the driver was outstanding that picked it up.

[tammy21@wans.net]

Did you try M&M electronics? I know they do wiring burn outs and if they can do them I’ll bet they can do the Multiplex rebuild. I know they do extensive work on Monaco Multiplex systems.

[vito.a]

Wow, I love the newer Signatures.  The Cambridge is a 1 1/2 bath model and one of my favorites.  It makes me very sad to see this.  

[Brett63]

21 minutes ago, tammy21@wans.net said:

Did you try M&M electronics? I know they do wiring burn outs and if they can do them I’ll bet they can do the Multiplex rebuild. I know they do extensive work on Monaco Multiplex systems.

Yes, they have no repairs as of yet. They have been working on repairs for a long time, but have yet to get anything to work.

10 minutes ago, vito.a said:

Wow, I love the newer Signatures.  The Cambridge is a 1 1/2 bath model and one of my favorites.  It makes me very sad to see this.  

One of our favorite floorplans as well. 

[vito.a]

Premium Coach Group in Gilbert AZ had a 2009 Signature a few years ago.  The owner (an IRV2 member) sold it to them because he was unable to repair the Kongsberg system.  The guys at Premium coach Group were able to repair it somehow.  

[Tom Cherry]

9 hours ago, tammy21@wans.net said:

Did you try M&M electronics? I know they do wiring burn outs and if they can do them I’ll bet they can do the Multiplex rebuild. I know they do extensive work on Monaco Multiplex systems.

Two things.  There are TWO MPX systems..Intellitec and Kongsburg. See my previous post.  M&M is the, or least was, the official (Paid) Intellitec tech support.  When the main TS guy passed away suddenly, Intellitec turned to M&M.  They are certainly the experts and they offer support and also repair boards no longer available.  I know a top notch RV tech that can totally troubleshoot an Intellitec system and isolate a bad switch or whatever.  He then sends the Intellitec items to them and they fix.  He gets his tech support from them as well.  We have a lot of folks here that are just as knowledgeable, perhaps more on the Intellitec MPX.

Many of these folks have spent a great deal of time, as have many top notch electronics RV shops that specialize in MPX systems on custom Prevost conversions.  They have tried and given up on the Kongsburg CCM.  I have also talked and met the father and son that run M&M and they have talked and did presentations to the Gathering in the past.

Our experts have the software and also talked to the original designers and folks that helped develop it.  Unfortunately they all agree.  The CCM components are not repairable. There are no new replacements.  If there is s fix, then it hasn’t been found….or maybe yet.

What to do next?  For those that have the CCM, be aware and don’t subject it to any electrical hazards….and do NOT let any untrained or inexperienced tech experiment.  Sometimes a loose connections or a corroded terminal or a lot of simple and repairable connections can resolve the issue.  But also, one needs to know what to look for and how to properly troubleshoot and isolate.  

That’s about the gist of it… and we may get a person that discovers the “trick”.  But as it is, the chips are not replaceable or reprogrammable.  Or that is how I understand it….

As to some shops fixing them…..if there is break in the MPX link or loose connections to the modules and the system goes down….but the main brains and the downstream modules are OK….then restoring the integrity of the network and the downstream connections would, in theory, fix it.

We have members randomly disconnect a module or switches for whatever reason….and then later on realize that the component was needed or they could not sell the MH “as is”.  Folks here have helped them resolve the connections with their Kongsburg components and all the OEM Kongsburg items were undamaged…or were OK…and bingo.., ALL FIXED.  Again, it is a complex system….but like any MPX, if you understand the connections and the logic…then you can isolate.  But, if one of the Kongsburg units is defective and there is no replacement…..that is it….

There have been an untold amount of offline trouble shooting….as well as networking to share….and what I report is sort of a barely knowledgeable layman’s explanation….but I know the electronic savvy of these folks and they have researched this and the brick wall gets hit every time it is a defective Brain or downstream CCM.   

[Brett63]

2 hours ago, vito.a said:

Premium Coach Group in Gilbert AZ had a 2009 Signature a few years ago.  The owner (an IRV2 member) sold it to them because he was unable to repair the Kongsberg system.  The guys at Premium coach Group were able to repair it somehow.  

Yes, I am good friends with Chad, owner of Premium. I actually bought the Sig from him.

42 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Two things.  There are TWO MPX systems..Intellitec and Kongsburg. See my previous post.  M&M is the, or least was, the official (Paid) Intellitec tech support.  When the main TS guy passed away suddenly, Intellitec turned to M&M.  They are certainly the experts and they offer support and also repair boards no longer available.  I know a top notch RV tech that can totally troubleshoot an Intellitec system and isolate a bad switch or whatever.  He then sends the Intellitec items to them and they fix.  He gets his tech support from them as well.  We have a lot of folks here that are just as knowledgeable, perhaps more on the Intellitec MPX.

Many of these folks have spent a great deal of time, as have many top notch electronics RV shops that specialize in MPX systems on custom Prevost conversions.  They have tried and given up on the Kongsburg CCM.  I have also talked and met the father and son that run M&M and they have talked and did presentations to the Gathering in the past.

Our experts have the software and also talked to the original designers and folks that helped develop it.  Unfortunately they all agree.  The CCM components are not repairable. There are no new replacements.  If there is s fix, then it hasn’t been found….or maybe yet.

What to do next?  For those that have the CCM, be aware and don’t subject it to any electrical hazards….and do NOT let any untrained or inexperienced tech experiment.  Sometimes a loose connections or a corroded terminal or a lot of simple and repairable connections can resolve the issue.  But also, one needs to know what to look for and how to properly troubleshoot and isolate.  

That’s about the gist of it… and we may get a person that discovers the “trick”.  But as it is, the chips are not replaceable or reprogrammable.  Or that is how I understand it….

As to some shops fixing them…..if there is break in the MPX link or loose connections to the modules and the system goes down….but the main brains and the downstream modules are OK….then restoring the integrity of the network and the downstream connections would, in theory, fix it.

We have members randomly disconnect a module or switches for whatever reason….and then later on realize that the component was needed or they could not sell the MH “as is”.  Folks here have helped them resolve the connections with their Kongsburg components and all the OEM Kongsburg items were undamaged…or were OK…and bingo.., ALL FIXED.  Again, it is a complex system….but like any MPX, if you understand the connections and the logic…then you can isolate.  But, if one of the Kongsburg units is defective and there is no replacement…..that is it….

There have been an untold amount of offline trouble shooting….as well as networking to share….and what I report is sort of a barely knowledgeable layman’s explanation….but I know the electronic savvy of these folks and they have researched this and the brick wall gets hit every time it is a defective Brain or downstream CCM.   

Well put Tom, I have the Cadet software and I can 100% isolate the system and diagnose. I have spent hours upon hours trouble shooting and isolating everything from the backbone of the chassis to the MPX system and everything in between. Am I an expert, not at all, but I would put my diagnosing and understanding the system against anyone. Granted I had a lot of help on the outside and I learned a lot from outside sources. I have talked to REV, Kongsburg, Eaton and anyone that would listen. I ran across two seperate mobile techs here in FL that were employed by Monaco in Coburg and then sent to Lazydays at The Villages, Fl when it was the east coast service center. In the end, there simply is no fix, especially if the switch pods go down as no one has been able to figure out the communication between the switch pods and the actual CCM's. It is actually very sad, but it is what it is. 

Here is a caution to ANYONE with this system, DO NOT let your house batteries run low as low voltage is one of the big killers to the switch pods and DO NOT unplug any pod without completely removing power from the CCMS, and simply turning the disconnects off will NOT remove power from the front CCM. The switch pods are very delicate. Typically the first thing to go bad is the smart wheel, That is actually a very easy fix that can be done for less than $50 bucks and works flawlessly. Anyway, I guess my Monaco story and life are over and I will move on.

[throgmartin]

Brett, I have been following this saga since your coach got hit by lightening.

I knew all about the Kongsburg issue and if they fried you parked your coach, put a fence around it and homesteaded it. Dave Pratt and I have had many discussions about this over the years. I put a strict policy in place that my techs are not allowed to do any electrical work on a coach that has this system. I do not want to be in the path of a lawsuit if that unit fried. In the legal world, any service center that touched a coach prior to a major problem will get sued and blamed. It is the same reason I wont touch a Norcold.

I am very sorry this happened to you. Over the years I have had many customers call me for advice before buying a coach and any of them that was interested in an 08 or 09 Dynasty or above I told them to walk away, simply for that reason - the Kongsburg. It is downright scary to think a circuit board with crazy programming can render a beautiful coach such as yours dead forever. Lightening strikes and bad power at campgrounds happen. 

God Bless you brother.

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, throgmartin said:

Brett, I have been following this saga since your coach got hit by lightening.

I knew all about the Kongsburg issue and if they fried you parked your coach, put a fence around it and homesteaded it. Dave Pratt and I have had many discussions about this over the years. I put a strict policy in place that my techs are not allowed to do any electrical work on a coach that has this system. I do not want to be in the path of a lawsuit if that unit fried. In the legal world, any service center that touched a coach prior to a major problem will get sued and blamed. It is the same reason I wont touch a Norcold.

I am very sorry this happened to you. Over the years I have had many customers call me for advice before buying a coach and any of them that was interested in an 08 or 09 Dynasty or above I told them to walk away, simply for that reason - the Kongsburg. It is downright scary to think a circuit board with crazy programming can render a beautiful coach such as yours dead forever. Lightening strikes and bad power at campgrounds happen. 

God Bless you brother.

Chris,

Well stated.  Speaking for myself, as an individual as well as a moderator, I feel exactly the same way and that is why when folks post or ask a question about purchasing a CCM coach, the advice is the same.  Monaco did an excellent job of making these coaches, especially the Patriots and Sigs and Execs, the epitome of a really luxury coach…..for those with resources, but not in the “Penthouse” level such as the Prevosts.

Only God and some luck and a little financial reality “saved” us from purchasing a new 2009 Dynasty…. I know many of the folks, like Dave, that say the same thing perhaps with a different rationale…..and confide that LUCK was on their side when the purchased a 2008 or 2007 model, new, of the Dynasty or above.

I personally have spent hours running into days and weeks researching the CCM trying to help others…..Frank McElroy is a “gotta know and understand” member and one of our top electronic gurus.  He has repaired boards and switches on the Intellitec MPX.  What I know from talking to him is that, in my opinion, he is equal to or perhaps more knowledgeable on the Intellitec than M&M….and he knows others here that are equally “at his level”.  

They all understand the CCM and many have spent considerable time, as Bret did (trying to salvage his Sig) researching.  When these guys say there NO FIX…then the diagnosis is in.  TERMINAL….and eventually (WHEN…not IF) it will fail.  Brett lost his in the best financial matter….as in an act of god and he was insured.  Many will have theirs fail without that safety net….unless they maintain extended warranty with a full replacement value clause…

Thanks for chiming in and confirming the reality of the situation.

My way of looking at it is this,  Jay Leno is a MULTI…REALLY Multi millionaire….maybe a “Billionaire”.  He has a “car collection” that no one can fathom.  He has a crew of fabricators and technicians and mechanics and they keep up his toys.  He does things like restoring and converting an older Ford F150 to an EV.

He is the only individual that I think could “restore” Brett’s MH.  He would spare no expense and literally take it apart or modify it.  He would probably buy a 2008 Sig and use it as his model.  All the SPECIAL CCM switch pads would be replaced.  Miles of new 12 gauge wiring would be run from them and he would probably have new dash panels made.  The original 2008 switches would be used.  THEN, the real job….running a new backbone or harness to the front items controlled by the CCM’s.  That would be “practice”….. The next hurdle….getting a supplemental backbone cable or wiring harness to the rear….and then rewiring.

NOW….we probably do or might have an individual that can do this…..but consider the scope of the project…..one would be better off purchasing a 2008 and being happy with a one year older MH….

[throgmartin]

I should add, I am surely not trying to trash someones 08 or 09 Sig, Exec or Dynasty. That isn't me at all.  They are amazing coaches.  I never have nor ever will I trash someones coach on here. But I do have a reputation of being honest and ethical and if I am contacted for advice about buying one of these models, that person deserves honesty when asking my professional opinion.

There are thousands of owners out there who own these coaches and have never had the problem. I myself would never roll the dice and hope I don't lose my Kronberg system. With my luck I would drop $ 150 K on one of those coaches and the next day the CCM fail. I simply cannot afford to roll the dice while praying my insurance company makes me whole.

Tom, you have known Dave and I for many years and you know we are straight shooters with a wealth of knowledge about Monaco's. People who may be afraid of an answer shouldn't ask either one of us because we will always give our honest opinion. We won't sugar coat it and both of us feel our members deserve honest answers based on facts.

 

[Scotty Hutto]

One minor tweak… and this is from @Frank McElroy who knows these systems.  Some early 2008 units have the Intellitec systems, but you have to know how to identify them. I found a beautiful 2008 Dynasty Renaissance IV that did not have the Kongsberg, and that checked all the boxes for me last year… bath & a half, factory wood floors (very unusual), etc…  until I inspected it closely and found every beltline popped and a majority of the sidewalls delaminated. 😢 I just wasn’t up to fixing all that, regardless of the price.

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, Scotty Hutto said:

One minor tweak… and this is from @Frank McElroy who knows these systems.  Some early 2008 units have the Intellitec systems, but you have to know how to identify them. I found a beautiful 2008 Dynasty Renaissance IV that did not have the Kongsberg, and that checked all the boxes for me last year… bath & a half, factory wood floors (very unusual), etc…  until I inspected it closely and found every beltline popped and a majority of the sidewalls delaminated. 😢 I just wasn’t up to fixing all that, regardless of the price.

Scotty, @Scotty Hutto

EDITED AFTER CONVERSATION WITH FRANK....MATTER OF SEMANTICS...

The 2008's, towards of the end of the model years COULD have had the Kongsburg Multiplex or "Multiplex Chassis Wiring" as Monaco put in the sales brochures for 2009 until 2012....or the CCM Chassis Control Module systems.  When you said  "INTELLITEC SYSTEMS", I thought, probably mistakenly, that you meant a Chassis Multiplex System.  Yes, the Dynasty's and up from at least 2007, maybe 2006 or so had a FRB that was crammed full of INTLLITEC BOARDS.  These boards got wired signals from "switches" and then it was a basic relay (MOSFET?) controller.  Those WERE made by Intellitec, but were NOT MPX....  Complex....but still not MPX and they did not have a data bus running between the switches and the downstream components.  That was why I posted my comment. 

All the Intelltiec boards (maybe 22 in a Dynasty) were replaced with the Kongsburg system....and it WAS A MPX system....but had two data buss circuits....where the conventional House Intellitec was just a single data buss loop and not daisy chained.

The Kongsburg system consists of Master Switch Modules and Chassis Control Modules and Slave (Switch) Modules (Key Pads)....that are TOTALLY different from the Intellitec House MPX Key Pads.....

The years were 2009 - 2012 and we have pictures in some posts as well as in the files....Frank wrote a thesis on this a while back.

I don't KNOW how many upper food chain MH's were made with them as the demand for such dropped off. I do know that many of the stranded 2009's came out with 2010 MY titles.  Navastar probably made the LAST of the Upper Food Chain....but whether they could still get parts (or had them in stock) to complete the assembly with the Kongsburg system is totally unknown.  Folks that are tech savvy and understood the differences and attended the shows could tell you.

My own curiosity.....REV has a Sales Brochure for a 2012 Dynasty and I think one of our members here had one of those.  The brochure DOES say "Chassis Multiplex Wiring"

I often kid Frank McElroy that I am satisfied with my 2009 Camelot and would not have any desire to go back to a "Conventional Intelltiec Controlled" FRB like he has.  I have ENOUGH difficulties in understand how my plain of "switch turns on and off" works....and the MOSFET Intelltiec Boards are way past what I want to learn....

This clears up the semantics....

[Scotty Hutto]

18 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Scotty, @Scotty Hutto

I assume you are getting like me, occassionally....for me it is getting worse, and your brain said KONGSBURG....but your fingers typed INTELLITEC.  The House MPX systems have always been, from the GET GO...Intellitec and they can be repaired and such...

However, as you pointed out, Monaco did a RUNNING change and some (I pointed this out earlier) of the 2008's that left the floor before the "2009" VINS were issued, DID INDEED, have the dreaded Kongsburg..

If that is correct, then edit the post and kill this one....

Thanks

Nope, the one I found was a 2008 that did NOT have a Kongsberg; it had the Intellitec.  I bailed on it because of the delaminated walls… not just a spot, but massive delamination.  It was sad to see such a beautiful coach that had not been cared for.  It was a bit of a unicorn, as it had several upgrades from the factory that you didn’t typically see.  The odd thing is ALL of the upgrades were listed on the build sheet I got from Monaco before I went to look at the coach.