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Kongsberg CCM Alternative Restoration & Replacement - 2009 Signature


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Being that I was not the high bidder, I will let KevinG advise if his friend won the bid.  If so, he can advise (or not).

If KevinG advises his friend didn't win, then sure....

 

Oh..."On Approval" means the insurance companies minimum reserve was not met.  So they have a day to approve the high bid price, or it goes back to auction another day.

Edited by DavidL
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I know I'm new here, but they are in for a surprise I'm sure. Probably saw the pic of engine communications failure and figured easy fix.  Most likely they'll be right here asking for help!  With the buyer fees on top of that, they are in for over 100k. No way it parts for that much. 

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38 minutes ago, KevinG said:

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$103.5k after fees,+taxes and shipping from Tampa FL to Oregon. 

A detail, but the buyer is likely not in Oregon.  Oregon is where all bids subscribed to AutoBidMaster come listed under.  My bid (Michigan) was "Oregon" too.

I was going to get it driveable in Florida...wonder what the new plan is...

Storage fees start to accrue as soon as purchase is done.

If it's a scrapper, they will yank the AC units, pop it on a Landall and drive off to the sunset.

Edited by DavidL
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7 minutes ago, DavidL said:

A detail, but the buyer is likely not in Oregon.  Oregon is where all bids subscribed to AutoBidMaster come listed under.  My bid (Michigan) was "Oregon" too.

I was going to get it driveable in Florida...wonder what the new plan is...

Yes, a detail I wish I knew when I bought and rebuilt a reflection 317 a few years ago.  I was bidding, and was in a frenzy because every time I placed a bid, some jerk from Oregon outbid me......I ran it up 2k before realizing it was me!!

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Guest Ray Davis
41 minutes ago, KevinG said:

It's back up for auction.  Apparently the insurance company didn't like the #87k price

I don't like it either, for the opposite reason tho.   It seems like a lot of money to gamble that it can be rescued.

However, there may be bidders out there that haven't the slightest idea what they are getting into.  I hope not,  I  wouldn't wish that on anyone, but that's how auctions are.  You win some & lose some,  makes it fun.  😁

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I think 87k is crazy money. Of course the insurance company doesn’t have a clue regarding the core issue. The amount of time and risk associated with the possibility of getting it back on the road is huge. If I had the expertise and time to undertake the challenge I couldn’t see it being worth more than 30k to give it a go. At least that way I could recoup a good part of my investment if I ended up parting it out

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I think the link to that auction should be posted to this site repeatedly, so whenever anyone searches the web for it they have a chance of being informed before making a stupid bid.
It could save someone a pile of money.

2 hours ago, Chargerman said:

I think 87k is crazy money. Of course the insurance company doesn’t have a clue regarding the core issue. The amount of time and risk associated with the possibility of getting it back on the road is huge. If I had the expertise and time to undertake the challenge I couldn’t see it being worth more than 30k to give it a go. At least that way I could recoup a good part of my investment if I ended up parting it out

I think you're right on the money.

If I were interested in undertaking that task, I wouldn't want a penny more than $30K in it to start.

If I were 30 years younger, I would consider it, but crawling around and rewiring a coach at my age just doesn't sound like much fun.
I'd probably replace all the CAN controlled crap with relay logic, replace the switches, and run trigger wires from all the switches to the run bay where the feeds to all the loads originate.
You may not have all the fancy automation, but the important stuff could be made to work reliably.

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27 minutes ago, Agpopp said:

Thats why I bought an 06 with hard switch gear. I'm no fan of complicating a motorhome even further. 

Not knowing anything about RV's when I bought mine new, I am so happy that the Ambassador was the only pusher I could afford. I hate electronics but I love hard wire connections. That was what I grew up with in the mid 60's. My 53 and 55 Chevys taught me how to maintain those vehicles up to the mid 70's when the big changes came.

Gary 05 AMB DST

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10 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

I think the link to that auction should be posted to this site repeatedly, so whenever anyone searches the web for it they have a chance of being informed before making a stupid bid.
It could save someone a pile of money.

I think you're right on the money.

If I were interested in undertaking that task, I wouldn't want a penny more than $30K in it to start.

If I were 30 years younger, I would consider it, but crawling around and rewiring a coach at my age just doesn't sound like much fun.
I'd probably replace all the CAN controlled crap with relay logic, replace the switches, and run trigger wires from all the switches to the run bay where the feeds to all the loads originate.
You may not have all the fancy automation, but the important stuff could be made to work reliably.

That would be possible from what I can tell looking at the schematics everything is an on/off output. There might be a variable output used for the high beams to run them as a day time running light, but I think that's it. The engine and transmission would need to be reprogrammed to take direct wire inputs for parking brake,service brake and cruise control, but that is an option. The smart wheel would be tricky to get working, but you could just ignore it and replace those functions with switches on the side console. You would need to keep the CAN network connection between the engine/transmission/ABS/Vorad so that they can all talk to each other. Same for the dash gauges, I think those are mostly CAN. 

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6 hours ago, KevinG said:

That would be possible from what I can tell looking at the schematics everything is an on/off output. There might be a variable output used for the high beams to run them as a day time running light, but I think that's it. The engine and transmission would need to be reprogrammed to take direct wire inputs for parking brake,service brake and cruise control, but that is an option. The smart wheel would be tricky to get working, but you could just ignore it and replace those functions with switches on the side console. You would need to keep the CAN network connection between the engine/transmission/ABS/Vorad so that they can all talk to each other. Same for the dash gauges, I think those are mostly CAN. 

Adding a smart wheel controls module to the FRB will bring back the smart wheel functions.  The steering wheel keypads are already there.  Keep in mind that all the output functions would need to be fused and many would need separate relays to handle the load. 

Main battery power lines would need to be reconfigured so that power to the CCMs and dash would come from the chassis and not the house batteries. 

In addition to  reprogramming the engine ECM, separate wiring to the ECM would be needed for Jake, cruise, and brake lights.

Also, the engine ECM J1939 output tested bad - that's why the gauges are showing a communication error.  So it would need to be repaired or replaced.  Until that's done you really won't know if other systems like the dash gauges, Vorad, and ABS were also damaged by the lightning hit.

At the right price and in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, this would be a good coach.  But someone who doesn't understand how to make the repairs will make a very costly mistake.

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40 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

At the right price and in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, this would be a good coach.  But someone who doesn't understand how to make the repairs will make a very costly mistake.

Or someone could fix it half-a** and pass it along to an unsuspecting buyer.  That would be tragic.

- bob

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11 hours ago, Gary 05 AMB DST said:

Not knowing anything about RV's when I bought mine new, I am so happy that the Ambassador was the only pusher I could afford. I hate electronics but I love hard wire connections. That was what I grew up with in the mid 60's. My 53 and 55 Chevys taught me how to maintain those vehicles up to the mid 70's when the big changes came.

Gary 05 AMB DST

MOI?  Be Prejudiced?  LOL

I AGREE. the last (2008 or so) Camelot/Scepter were the best, IMHO, mix. There are two PCB - one small in the rear and a big sucker up front.  The slide controls are relays in the back and a diode bridge (easily replicated) in the front.  The rest of the chassis is all wires and relays.  No special boards or 22 boards up front.

The interior lighting, fans and pump control are the simple Intellitec.  An IPX “drives” it.  The EMS  is simple and could be bypassed and common sense used for loading.

Now, we like the Intellitec MPX Lighting system and understand it.

So simplicity vs desired creature features is a mix that one must balance.  We have electronic gurus here that can diagnose, remove chips, reprogram any of the 40 or so boards on the 2006 Dynasty and up.  Those wiring diagrams require, at least to my simplistic brain, a different level of understanding.  I have muddled through some of the circuits and understand the logic, but can’t offer but limited troubleshooting advice.  So, our Hybrid suits us.  Others think it is too complex for their needs and liking.

Generally, most agree that the quantum leap to the MPX Chassis Control was “Ill advised”. There were competing electrical factions in Monaco right before the “financial crisis” of 2007/08. The “hard programmed” CCM Modules and the fixed programmed “3 switch” modules, now seem, logically, to be questionable.  The Intellitec CPU can be reflashed or programmed by many folks.  Same for the switch panels. The control or output modules don’t require programming, just DIP switch settings.  Had the CCM used that architecture, then the almost planned obsolescence, seemingly, of the Kongsburg system would have been averted.

Granted, the crash of the RV industry in 2009 and the need to retool the electronic assembly lines of Kongsburg was probably unforeseen….but I do question Monaco’s Exec’s that wanted to be “super Gee Whiz” and not develop a system of proprietary modules….MH/Model/Year specific…..(switches, IIUC).  

The fact that these MH are valued at say 30 - 50% of their MSRP and are susceptible to a catastrophic failure is regrettable.  Admittedly, if one rehashes the past 12 years, there have been very few “totally unfixible” units.  But when one steps back and makes a decision to purchase one and there is a 1 in 100, 1000 or greater chance that a catastrophic failure will happen, then one has to asses their own personal financial situation to determine if that event can or would be absorbed and their lifestyle unchanged.  

Thus endeth my unsolicited philosophical rant….LOL

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3 hours ago, Frank McElroy said:

Adding a smart wheel controls module to the FRB will bring back the smart wheel functions.  The steering wheel keypads are already there.  Keep in mind that all the output functions would need to be fused and many would need separate relays to handle the load. 

Main battery power lines would need to be reconfigured so that power to the CCMs and dash would come from the chassis and not the house batteries. 

In addition to  reprogramming the engine ECM, separate wiring to tgye ECM would be needed for Jake, cruise, and brake lights.

Also, the engine ECM J1939 output tested bad - that's why the gauges are showing a communication error.  So it would need to be repaired or replaced.  Until that's done you really won't know if other systems like the dash gauges, Vorad, and ABS were also damaged by the lightening hit.

At the right price and in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, this would be a good coach.  But someone who doesn't understand how to make the repairs will make a very costly mistake.

So the engine will run, just the CAN side of the engine ECM is dead? Lightning strikes are crazy to troubleshoot. 

 

I think the new Eaton switch modules use the same CAN message format and could be a replacement, but it would require some more research. 

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31 minutes ago, KevinG said:

So the engine will run, just the CAN side of the engine ECM is dead? Lightning strikes are crazy to troubleshoot. 

 

I think the new Eaton switch modules use the same CAN message format and could be a replacement, but it would require some more research. 

Yes it appears that lightning took out the J1939 side of the engine ECM and the rear CCM.  So either one would need to find replacements or rewire to conventional or internally replace the failed electrical components on these modules.

As for compatibility of the new Eaton switch modules, they would need to be setup and programmed the same as the old E30.   Even so, the communication protocols might not be compatible.

Another option is a dedicated touch screen display with the output programmed through the Cadet software to communicate with the CCMs.  To do that requires someone who understands digital multiplex electronics. 

But, if someone could replace the failed internal component on those master modules, the rear CCM and engine ECM you would be back to OEM.

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49 minutes ago, grizzly said:

So after reading all of these headaches I have a question which might be dumb. I have 07 Sig so my system is the older better and easier system correct? And more reliable?

Yes, repairs on a conventional chassis wired coach are much simpler than on a Chassis multiplex coach.  Also, parts are easier to find on a conventional system.

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