Kongsberg CCM Alternative Restoration & Replacement - 2009 Signature

[Gary 05 AMB DST]

4 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

MOI?  Be Prejudiced?  LOL

I AGREE. the last (2008 or so) Camelot/Scepter were the best, IMHO, mix. There are two PCB - one small in the rear and a big sucker up front.  The slide controls are relays in the back and a diode bridge (easily replicated) in the front.  The rest of the chassis is all wires and relays.  No special boards or 22 boards up front.

The interior lighting, fans and pump control are the simple Intellitec.  An IPX “drives” it.  The EMS  is simple and could be bypassed and common sense used for loading.

Now, we like the Intellitec MPX Lighting system and understand it.

So simplicity vs desired creature features is a mix that one must balance.  We have electronic gurus here that can diagnose, remove chips, reprogram any of the 40 or so boards on the 2006 Dynasty and up.  Those wiring diagrams require, at least to my simplistic brain, a different level of understanding.  I have muddled through some of the circuits and understand the logic, but can’t offer but limited troubleshooting advice.  So, our Hybrid suits us.  Others think it is too complex for their needs and liking.

Generally, most agree that the quantum leap to the MPX Chassis Control was “Ill advised”. There were competing electrical factions in Monaco right before the “financial crisis” of 2007/08. The “hard programmed” CCM Modules and the fixed programmed “3 switch” modules, now seem, logically, to be questionable.  The Intellitec CPU can be reflashed or programmed by many folks.  Same for the switch panels. The control or output modules don’t require programming, just DIP switch settings.  Had the CCM used that architecture, then the almost planned obsolescence, seemingly, of the Kongsburg system would have been averted.

Granted, the crash of the RV industry in 2009 and the need to retool the electronic assembly lines of Kongsburg was probably unforeseen….but I do question Monaco’s Exec’s that wanted to be “super Gee Whiz” and not develop a system of proprietary modules….MH/Model/Year specific…..(switches, IIUC).  

The fact that these MH are valued at say 30 - 50% of their MSRP and are susceptible to a catastrophic failure is regrettable.  Admittedly, if one rehashes the past 12 years, there have been very few “totally unfixible” units.  But when one steps back and makes a decision to purchase one and there is a 1 in 100, 1000 or greater chance that a catastrophic failure will happen, then one has to asses their own personal financial situation to determine if that event can or would be absorbed and their lifestyle unchanged.  

Thus endeth my unsolicited philosophical rant….LOL

I also dislike the phones and televisions but that's a different subject. 

Gary 05 AMB DST

[Frank McElroy]

3 hours ago, grizzly said:

Frank, when you say multiplex system what do you mean? In my coach back in the closet there is a whole set up. What is that called?

Actually I said Chassis Multiplex.  Often times folk see the name multiplex and confuse it between the Intellitec House Multiplex and the Kongsberg/Megatech/Eaton Chassis multiplex system.

Back in the mid 2000's, Monaco converted conventional house switch wiring for lighting, water pump, slides etc. to a multiplex system made by Intellitec.  There were 2 systems.  A mini used on models below the Dynasty and a CPU based system programmed for models Dynasty and above.  I recall about a year after this system came out, many hated it mainly because they and techs didn't understand it.  As time went on, it was widely accepted.  It also offered a lot of flexibility.  It you wanted custom switches or a module by the driver's seat to work the slides, aquahot, inverter or water pump you could do all that with just 3 wires like I did.

Then, to keep up with the industry, in 2008 Monaco introduced a Chassis Multiplex system starting with the Signature and later in the 2008 model year production down to the Dynasty.  Workhorse had a similar system.  So all the dash switches were replaced by multiplex 3 switch modules.  Unfortunately, about a year later, Monaco filed for bankruptcy.  This chassis multiplex system is complex and very few folks understand it.  The SmartWheel controller no longer exists.  It was programmed into the CCM module. 

The  Kongsberg Cadet software needed to troubleshoot the system is unique to Monaco.  Shops that might have the Cadet software for a workhouse chassis can't communicate with a Monaco chassis unless they had a separate license.  Very few folks out there actually have a working version of the Cadet software for Monaco coaches.  This software can perform all the same functions as the dash switches.

[grizzly]

Frank thanks for the info

[Mike Barrett]

would it make any sense/difference to chase down a motherboard of Kingsberg system from a salvage operation?

[Matt Lavender]

On 3/21/2023 at 5:12 AM, Frank McElroy said:

Adding a smart wheel controls module to the FRB will bring back the smart wheel functions.  The steering wheel keypads are already there.  Keep in mind that all the output functions would need to be fused and many would need separate relays to handle the load. 

Main battery power lines would need to be reconfigured so that power to the CCMs and dash would come from the chassis and not the house batteries. 

In addition to  reprogramming the engine ECM, separate wiring to the ECM would be needed for Jake, cruise, and brake lights.

Also, the engine ECM J1939 output tested bad - that's why the gauges are showing a communication error.  So it would need to be repaired or replaced.  Until that's done you really won't know if other systems like the dash gauges, Vorad, and ABS were also damaged by the lightning hit.

At the right price and in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, this would be a good coach.  But someone who doesn't understand how to make the repairs will make a very costly mistake.

Thanks for all the great info Frank and sharing your time and knowledge with us.

I have a 2008 Scepter 40PDQ. When you say a "smartwheel", what determines a smartwheel?  On my steering wheel, I have my cruise control on left, windshield wipers and courtesy light flash controls.  

Also, in the bathroom area I have 3 control boxes that have the dipswitches. Are these the "better" multiplex system to have?  Or the dreaded one?   I have a living room interior light that does not work at the entry step rocker switch but the light will work at the 6 button lighted switch over the couch. I want to delve into this to get it working.

Thanks again to you and also to Tom Cherry for all the wisdom and insight you have.  I hope at some point I could reciprocate my knowledge to help.  

[Frank McElroy]

11 minutes ago, Matt Lavender said:

Thanks for all the great info Frank and sharing your time and knowledge with us.

I have a 2008 Scepter 40PDQ. When you say a "smartwheel", what determines a smartwheel?  On my steering wheel, I have my cruise control on left, windshield wipers and courtesy light flash controls.  

Also, in the bathroom area I have 3 control boxes that have the dipswitches. Are these the "better" multiplex system to have?  Or the dreaded one?   I have a living room interior light that does not work at the entry step rocker switch but the light will work at the 6 button lighted switch over the couch. I want to delve into this to get it working.

Thanks again to you and also to Tom Cherry for all the wisdom and insight you have.  I hope at some point I could reciprocate my knowledge to help.  

Read my explanation a few posts up.  You only have a mini Intellitec house multiplex system very similar to what Tom Cherry has.

[Matt Lavender]

11 minutes ago, Frank McElroy said:

Read my explanation a few posts up.  You only have a mini Intellitec house multiplex system very similar to what Tom Cherry has.

Oh, that's a great relief to hear!!  I was lucky because I had no clue when purchasing this in July 2022 from a friend. Flew from LAX to SC and drove it home.

So far so good.. Thanks again.

I had read the part about the dipswitches, but I wanted to be sure mine wasn't the "dreaded" system.

 

[Tom Cherry]

40 minutes ago, Matt Lavender said:

Thanks for all the great info Frank and sharing your time and knowledge with us.

I have a 2008 Scepter 40PDQ. When you say a "smartwheel", what determines a smartwheel?  On my steering wheel, I have my cruise control on left, windshield wipers and courtesy light flash controls.  

Also, in the bathroom area I have 3 control boxes that have the dipswitches. Are these the "better" multiplex system to have?  Or the dreaded one?   I have a living room interior light that does not work at the entry step rocker switch but the light will work at the 6 button lighted switch over the couch. I want to delve into this to get it working.

Thanks again to you and also to Tom Cherry for all the wisdom and insight you have.  I hope at some point I could reciprocate my knowledge to help.  

Yes, you have, as Frank says, the “hybrid”.  It has 3 Intellitec modules.  There is a small “IPX” or “brain” and several Circuit Breakers and the Slide control relay box hidden behind the panel with the 3 modules.  Each “keypad” switch is programmed and there is a legend or diagram there. The bathroom key pad has a separate 2 wire connector that goes down to the wet bay pump switch.  When you press “on” the pump there, it is like pushing the pump button in the bathroom.

likewise, the spring loaded “on” switch as you come in on the left goes directly to the key pad for the “living overhead” fluorescents….probably 3 fixtures.  If the key pad works, then I’d squeeze and lift up the cover on the keypad.  It sort of “pops” off and is intuitive.  Once off, you can pull the switch and check the two wire plug.  Tug on the butt splices.  If you take a paper clip and jumper the 2 (NOT the THREE WIRE) terminals on the TWO WIRE harness, that will cycle the lights.  That is the same as momentarily pushing the rocker switch at the door.  If jumpering momentarily cycles on or off the lights…..snd the plug is inserted fully, then time to go to the rocker switch….it has multiple terminals as it lights up at night.  There will be a ground and a 12 VDC signal when the headlight or other switches are illuminated.  But there are only 2 other terminals and they go directly to that keypad….no 12 VDC on them. Just a dry contact switch leg circuit.

YES….you have the VIP (Brand name) Smart Wheel.  But since you don’t have the MPX (Multiplex) Chassis Control Module (CCM) system, there is nothing to add or do….adding the separate 5 VDC power supply is a backup for folks with the CCCM.  That would be, most likely, 2009 Dynasty and up owners…not US. We live in the middle….a simple hybrid MPX.  The 2008 and older Dynasty did not have the CCM….or maybe some of the upper ends did….Monaco made mid year running changes. 

Hope this helps…

[DavidL]

Sold again.  A bit more than last time.  I didn't see if it hit the Reserve.  Went past my limit.

 

I suspect the Insurance company will take this one.  Likely same two bidders (at the end) and similar price.

Edited March 24, 2023 by DavidL

[Chargerman]

Just insane pricing in my mind. Sure would like to hear how they make out with the repair. Sure hope they know what they’re getting in to and didn’t bid because of how pretty the coach is. 

[Ivan K]

Yeah, I think classifying the damage as mechanical is very dishonest and misleading,  mechanical is easy compared to what we now know.

[Tom Cherry]

45 minutes ago, DavidL said:

Sold again.  A bit more than last time.  I didn't see if it hit the Reserve.  Went past my limit.

 

I suspect the Insurance company will take this one.  Likely same two bidders (at the end) and similar price.

ER, HOW MUCH?  What was the reserve…What did it go for. ….we mortals, I think, can’t see that.  Thanks in advance for the numbers….

[Agpopp]

Anyone can sign up for AutoAStat free trial and punch in the vin. Good service and opened my eyes to what really happens with a lot of the salvage vehicles.  Lots and lots are bought, bodyworked to look good and resold at copart again to make quick money. Then when you get it, the frames are still trashed and they did who knows what to it and you still have a salvage title! 

[DavidL]

10 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

ER, HOW MUCH?  What was the reserve…What did it go for. ….we mortals, I think, can’t see that.  Thanks in advance for the numbers….

Let's see if KevinG's friend bid.  If so, it's their place to inform on price.

And not sure if the Reserve was hit.  I didn't see the notification that the reserve was getting close, but the bidding was moving fast in the last 30 seconds...I think it might have...it is listed as SOLD.

2 minutes ago, Agpopp said:

Anyone can sign up for AutoAStat free trial and punch in the vin. Good service and opened my eyes to what really happens with a lot of the salvage vehicles.  Lots and lots are bought, bodyworked to look good and resold at copart again to make quick money. Then when you get it, the frames are still trashed and they did who knows what to it and you still have a salvage title! 

Well, that all depends on who bought it and repaired it.  My frame is in excellent condition post repairs.  Straight and solid.

[KevinG]

Wasn't us that got it,but it went for 90k. 

[DavidL]

9 hours ago, KevinG said:

Wasn't us that got it,but it went for 90k. 

Darn, I was hoping your friend got it so we could follow the adventure.  So, what was your friend going to do with it (if we can't find the adventure, let's make one up 🙂   )

[KevinG]

The plan was to replace the CCM modules with the Parker CM3033 modules. I have the front box worked out and needed to add a CM0410 slave module to drive some of the relays. I was going to add a LittelFuse HWB60 for the extra relays I needed. The original CCM modules have relays and fuses in that center section, so I would have needed to add a few.  The rear CCM was doing less, so that would just get replaced with one CM3033 module and maybe a few relays. The AC Fan would need a relay.

The switches would get replaced by either the new Eaton modules since I think I can swap the switch covers and keep the same labeling, or Carling switches and just pick new icons and labels that match. My friend liked the idea of the physical switches over a touch screen, but a screen would be easy to do as well. The  Carling VM Switches are CAN/multiplex switches but do not rely on the Master/Slave configuration. So if one switch bank dies, you can just replace it. Plus I've had better luck with Carling switches over Eaton.

 

The rest of the ECUs in the system are still available if they needed to be replaced. So that makes those easier.

 

I'd love to do a electronically controlled Air suspension so that I can vary the ride height as it's driving. Drop the suspension height as you pick up speed, for that road hugging handling and improved aerodynamics. Also would be nice to have an "off-road" button that lifts it up a bit for getting into camp sites. The solenoids are already there for the air leveling, so it's just some sensors and programming. 

 

 

[Ivylog]

“I’d love to do a electronically controlled Air suspension so that I can vary the ride height as it's driving. Drop the suspension height as you pick up speed, for that road hugging handling and improved aerodynamics.”

Mount 3 of these instead of the ride height rods. Have the lowered fully retracted so they are equalize the length.

[Frank McElroy]

20 minutes ago, Ivylog said:

“I’d love to do a electronically controlled Air suspension so that I can vary the ride height as it's driving. Drop the suspension height as you pick up speed, for that road hugging handling and improved aerodynamics.”

Mount 3 of these instead of the ride height rods. Have the lowered fully retracted so they are equalize the length.

Although an interesting concept, keep in mind that making large changes to the ride height will put more stress on the drive shaft U-joints.  If the front is lowered too much, steering will be limited due to body clearance.

[Ivylog]

1 hour ago, Frank McElroy said:

Although an interesting concept, keep in mind that making large changes to the ride height will put more stress on the drive shaft U-joints.  If the front is lowered too much, steering will be limited due to body clearance.

My point was KISS

[David Pratt]

3 hours ago, KevinG said:

The plan was to replace the CCM modules with the Parker CM3033 modules. I have the front box worked out and needed to add a CM0410 slave module to drive some of the relays. I was going to add a LittelFuse HWB60 for the extra relays I needed. The original CCM modules have relays and fuses in that center section, so I would have needed to add a few.  The rear CCM was doing less, so that would just get replaced with one CM3033 module and maybe a few relays. The AC Fan would need a relay.

The switches would get replaced by either the new Eaton modules since I think I can swap the switch covers and keep the same labeling, or Carling switches and just pick new icons and labels that match. My friend liked the idea of the physical switches over a touch screen, but a screen would be easy to do as well. The  Carling VM Switches are CAN/multiplex switches but do not rely on the Master/Slave configuration. So if one switch bank dies, you can just replace it. Plus I've had better luck with Carling switches over Eaton.

 

The rest of the ECUs in the system are still available if they needed to be replaced. So that makes those easier.

 

I'd love to do a electronically controlled Air suspension so that I can vary the ride height as it's driving. Drop the suspension height as you pick up speed, for that road hugging handling and improved aerodynamics. Also would be nice to have an "off-road" button that lifts it up a bit for getting into camp sites. The solenoids are already there for the air leveling, so it's just some sensors and programming. 

 

 

Kevin, You posted; "I'd love to do a electronically controlled Air suspension so that I can vary the ride height as it's driving. Drop the suspension height as you pick up speed, for that road hugging handling and improved aerodynamics. Also would be nice to have an "off-road" button that lifts it up a bit for getting into camp sites. The solenoids are already there for the air leveling, so it's just some sensors and programming."

You would be re-inventing the wheel. HWH does all the above with the ACTIVE AIR System.  My Foretravel ih-45 has the Active Air System and does all the above in your post except it will not adjust the ride height up or down automatically, but I have the ability to raise it or lower the coach manually on the fly as needed. It also automatically adjusst the steering input for crosswind and other highway issues. I can monitor the air pressure in each air bag and monitor the movement of air pressure to and from the bags. It makes all these adjustments in Milli-seconds. The HWH Active Air system has been around for several years and is installed in most of the higher end coaches.

HWH can retro-fit any air ride coach with the Active Air System.

Silver Leaf also has a complete Chassis MUX system that can be retro-fitted to any coach  and can replace the Kongsburg Junk. All you need is $$$$$$.

[Brett63]

56 minutes ago, David Pratt said:

Kevin, You posted; "I'd love to do a electronically controlled Air suspension so that I can vary the ride height as it's driving. Drop the suspension height as you pick up speed, for that road hugging handling and improved aerodynamics. Also would be nice to have an "off-road" button that lifts it up a bit for getting into camp sites. The solenoids are already there for the air leveling, so it's just some sensors and programming."

You would be re-inventing the wheel. HWH does all the above with the ACTIVE AIR System.  My Foretravel ih-45 has the Active Air System and does all the above in your post except it will not adjust the ride height up or down automatically, but I have the ability to raise it or lower the coach manually on the fly as needed. It also automatically adjusst the steering input for crosswind and other highway issues. I can monitor the air pressure in each air bag and monitor the movement of air pressure to and from the bags. It makes all these adjustments in Milli-seconds. The HWH Active Air system has been around for several years and is installed in most of the higher end coaches.

HWH can retro-fit any air ride coach with the Active Air System.

Silver Leaf also has a complete Chassis MUX system that can be retro-fitted to any coach  and can replace the Kongsburg Junk. All you need is $$$$$$.

Dave, SL does NOT have a system to replace the MUX. I talked to them at very great lengths multiple times. The closest we got was for them to design something using off the shelf parts similar to what Kevin is talking about. But they were not sure if they could do it and were most certain from their standpoint it would not be cost beneficial. The issue for any company is the R&D they would have to do and there simply was not enough units on the road with the MUX system for it to be cost effective for them as a company, and I talked to MANY companies. This is going to be a project for someone to take on that has the knowledge and dollars to do it as a one off. But Silverleafe has absolutely nothing chassis related that would work on this coach. Many have house control systems, none have chassis control systems. If Silver Leaf or ANYONE had a system to replace the MUX this coach would not have been totaled. Insurance was willing to pay up to 50% of coach value for repairs. There was no one to repair short of taking months doing a re-wire to delete the entire MUX system and neither I nor insurance was willing to do that as there were no estimates as no one was willing to go out on a limb before opening pandoras box. 

[woodylmiller]

Hey Frank, Woody here, you talked about a smart wheel module.  That is available for my 09 Dynasty?  I'm having some issues with my smart wheel.  Wipers acting up, would not shut off unless I disconnected the battery by the switch in the battery compartment.  Still in snow and cold here so I have not gone out to suffer through the cold to troubleshoot yet.  Spring is near and I'll be getting back at dealing with the issues, also the cruise control decided it would act up as well.  

Back to the Kongsberh issue, I got a bid from Cummins, not that I would recommend them for this kind of work, but they said about 5 grand to hard wire for the jake break.  Fortunately I found the REV guys in Coburg and they got my system up and running.  But it was not the CCM, just switches.

I think I have a power issue at the moment.  Just need some warm weather to get me out there and mess around.

Woody Miller

09 Dynasty

[tmw188]

What does the Smart Wheel in question look like? What yrs were they used?

[Frank McElroy]

49 minutes ago, woodylmiller said:

Hey Frank, Woody here, you talked about a smart wheel module.  That is available for my 09 Dynasty?  I'm having some issues with my smart wheel.  Wipers acting up, would not shut off unless I disconnected the battery by the switch in the battery compartment.  Still in snow and cold here so I have not gone out to suffer through the cold to troubleshoot yet.  Spring is near and I'll be getting back at dealing with the issues, also the cruise control decided it would act up as well.  

Back to the Kongsberh issue, I got a bid from Cummins, not that I would recommend them for this kind of work, but they said about 5 grand to hard wire for the jake break.  Fortunately I found the REV guys in Coburg and they got my system up and running.  But it was not the CCM, just switches.

I think I have a power issue at the moment.  Just need some warm weather to get me out there and mess around.

Woody Miller

09 Dynasty

Woody, you need to do the standard troubleshooting by measuring voltages on the two data wires as outlined in the SmartWheel manual.  The CCM has a known failure issue with the +5 VDC supply to the smart wheel keypads dropping low when a keypad is pressed.  This was discussed some time ago and if that's your problem, here is a link to a $20 fix.  But you could also have a poor connection or a bad click spring.  Doing the diagnostics will sort it out.