Outlets not working - sparked outlet - 2007 Diplomat

[Bill R]

4 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

I did some testing only to find out that the RV Tech had installed an incorrect type of GFI CB which was not wired correctly and could have caused a death or severe injury on our 10-day trip back home from Salt Lake City.

@Dr4Film Richard can you explain what was incorrectly installed and wired.  Just looking to add some safety learning for myself of what you found.

[Guest Ray Davis]

 I think I recall someone finding a GFCI down in one of their bays,  the outside receptacle.

 My Windsor has the GFCIs located in the breaker box.  One of them went bad so I found one at Lowes that seemed identical,  well, it wasn't identical enough.     I simply cannot trust it, it'll trip at unpredictable times.  I swapped it with the good one and the tripping followed the GFCI breaker so it seems to be incompatible   The only identification on the original bad one is it's a Square D.     

 Does anyone know which breaker I need?        

Edited February 27, 2023 by Ray Davis

[Ivan K]

Ray, the only markings I can see on ours are as pictured.

[Guest Ray Davis]

5 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

Ray, the only markings I can see on ours are as pictured.

Thanks, Ivan I believe that's all that is on mine as well.

[TomV48]

1 hour ago, Ray Davis said:

Thanks, Ivan I believe that's all that is on mine as well.

Pretty sure   Square D is the brand.  You shouldn't be any magic take a break her out go to the store or electrical supply and get a matching  square D with a gfic on it.  I haven't been doing any construction recently but square D was a pretty big brand there's a long back as I can remember.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by TomV48

[Dr4Film]

19 hours ago, Bill R said:

@Dr4Film Richard can you explain what was incorrectly installed and wired.  Just looking to add some safety learning for myself of what you found.

Bill,

I actually did a previous post on exactly what happened with photos here.

 

[Bill R]

@Dr4Film Thanks Richard, I missed that previous post of yours.  I didn't realize they made GFCI/AFCI combo breakers.  Good to know!

[Tom Cherry]

11 hours ago, TomV48 said:

Pretty sure   Square D is the brand.  You shouldn't be any magic take a break her out go to the store or electrical supply and get a matching  square D with a gfic on it.  I haven't been doing any construction recently but square D was a pretty big brand there's a long back as I can remember.

 

I don’t pretend to be an EE designer of Circuit Interruption systems.  But I do have a lot, as many do, of hands on experience from being the Facilities Manager for two large plants as well as helping out on the floor when we were short handed and also having friends that ran a plumbing snd electrical contracting business for airports, commercial, industrial and residential…..or were State Licensed electricians.  So that is my “references”.

Their advice when I would run into an issue or helping a friend was ….PUT BACK WHAT IS IN THERE….  And I also talked to the Eaton (was Cooper) Wiring Devices engineers as I audited their plants in my capacity of Director of MANY things including Facilities. The typical age of our motor homes were in the early years of AFCI requirements that was only for Bedrooms in Residential.  Then as time progressed, the rooms or where must be…was expanded….twice or maybe 3 times,  Our MH technically do not fall under NEC, but we use the same standards and NFPA regulations also come into and MH/RV manufacturers did NOT require Arc Fault protection.  The wiring for the outlets meets the NEC & UL & RVIA standards for Manufactured Housing. HOWEVER…. The “code” NEC and NFPA standards for Manufactured housing was not updated until 2016 or so and there are all sorts of debates about how to interpret or what was required and scads of electricians and building inspectors have debated this online and there is no consensus.

I also can’t find out if the “OK….we THINK we gotta do it” Manufactured Housing outlet (crimped on inside a box) connectors (not terminal screwed down) are still legal or in use.  In addition, the “general consensus” was Manufactured Housing (crimped in outlets) are a PITA and might cause issues….as in false trips for Arc Fault upstream protection.

Bottom line, based on the issues that are in many of the other RV forums and from the practical experience of my licensed contractor and electricians, I personally would not add Arc Fault to a motor home.  In addition there are specific downstream requirements as well as even hooking up or replacing a GFCI or a Conventional breaker.  There are many blogs on Manufactured Housing that gets into the details of how the Neutrals are to connected….in addition, if I read the comments correctly,  CODE does not allow but ONE Black wire hooked up to a single AF&GFCI breaker.  Folks used “wire nuts”, which is a NO NO for any AC wiring on a MH or RV.  All “spliced” connections should’ve the proper wire size rated CRIMPED connection.  One needs to be able to inspect or know HOW all downstream circuits or outlets are wired as well.  

The issues, initially, is that many AFCI devices will normally nuance trip when certain appliances or things like a motor are hooked up. I don’t know if the later revision are more selective.

Most licensed electricians that I talked to said do NOT upgrade to AFCI unless you have a specific need.  Now, if one is really concerned, the flashing is an issue in the crimped on Manufactured Housing outlet that we have. SO, there are options….replace all the outlets with conventional terminal…..assuming you have enough slack to do so.  Many have done this or related experiences.

I personally tell folks to replace their aging GFCI with a newer one, rated for the circuit, and NOT to add ARC FLASH….just the same style GFCI that came in the MH.

If I decided to replace a GFCI breaker and felt I needed ACFI and used the “combo” breaker, I would carry a spare GFCI Breaker in case there were nuance trips…..and then if I wanted to have AFCI, I would start changing out outlets or find the issue.

In Richard’s write up, I think he chose to upgrade to a AFCI combo.  That is a Square D…a good name.  If he has no issues, then obviously it works.  In the original ME and MS series Magnum inverters, the owners and installation manual names three brands.  Eaton (Cooper) Wiring Devices, Hubbell and Leviton….(memory) as tested brands of GFCI that were suitable for use downstream with a Magnum inverter.  I THINK that also carried over for Circuit Breaker style too….therefore these are the three brands.  Folks here have used the Lowe’s Utilitec and had issues.  Reading the newer manuals, there is no brand callout.  Don’t know if Magnum has made revisions that will allow a common “commodity” GFCI receptacle or CB style to work OK.  But if I chose to NOT install a brand that they had tested or recommended in the past, I would call them and verify that it is OK for an older inverter.

ONE final note, added recently, I think.  If you have a downstream GFCI, turn OFF Search watts.  In my write up on setting up a Magnum, that was the recommendation based on countless conversations with Magnum.

That’s my take on it….

 

[Gary Cole]

Square D has a circuit breaker buss bar clamp design which is unique to their line of push in commercial breakers. They do have an economy line called Home Line which shares a configuration with some other manufacturers. They also have a bolted buss style which is used in industrial applications. The circuit breaker used in our RVs to the best of my knowledge is the Q series which is the commercial clamp version. They are expensive however are considered one of the best and most reliable choices in the industry by electrical designers. If your SQ D circuit breaker is tripping it is probably because it sees something it does not like in the circuit.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Gary Cole