dl_racing427 Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 On 3/2/2023 at 8:18 AM, Gene Y said: We have a 2014 Ford Focus Hatchback that we use as our toad. (Already set up by previous owner)Great little car other than an issue with the automatic transmission. The previous owner did not disclose that the vehicle had a known history of transmission issues. So after acquiring the vehicle driving it home from one coast to the other, using it 2 times on RV trips we found the transmission to stutter. About $2,200 later we have a transmission that has a 2 year warranty, so every year or so we take it in and have the transmission rebuilt. The warranty renews every time we get it rebuilt. However we are considering replacing it with something larger. Something more useful to your post is that Ford has several later model vehicles that are flat towable. Besides the pickups, the current model of the Bronco (at least one edition), many of the later Explorer, Expedition, Edge, and I think even Escape can be flat towed. Having said all that I am also considering the Equinox to replace my Focus. The later years Focus with the automatic did have some tranny problems. With a manual tranny, it's a very bulletproof little car. My 2004 ZX3 2.3 has over 330,000 miles and still burns no oil and has the original clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven P Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 20 hours ago, Ray Davis said: Steven, just curious about your surge brake. When going down a mountain with the exhaust brake on is the surge brake responsive enough that your toad brakes are on? Ray, I haven't covered much mountainous terrain at this point in my life yet to give you true feedback, but I haven't had problems with it yet. I took my dad fishing in AR and that was likely the most grades I've experienced, w no issues. You need to make sure it's adjusted properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W7BE_Bob Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 Opinion: Originally I had the Roadmaster tow bar that had adjustable length for hookup, would then lock in place and could be difficult to unhook. Later I switched the arms to the All Terrain one to solve that probem. Also had a box type brake and that was also replaced with a permanent built in brake. Note: Our camping style has always been frequent stopping for short periods and ease use for towing became a priority vs say snowbird type of usage staying for longer times. Planning to sell the current 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland which is set up with Roadmaster base plate and Air Force 1 brake. Can be towed with non airbrake MH with the addition of a small compressor. Previous toad was a 04 CRV. 2015 and newer CRVs cannot be towed due too a transmission change. I have always used a 6 wire toad hookup cable and the spare wire connected from the toad brake lights to a MH cab light so I know when the toad brakes were activated. A 6 wire cable allows for the addition of a charge line if needed and there is increased need of one in more current year models due to the increase of electronics including EPS, etc when towing. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellaTariche Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 (edited) I have a 2014 Jeep Cherokee Limited with the special “flat tow” capable transfer case. This $3k+ Transmission upgrade is standard on the Trailhook model, BTW. Jeep dealer and documentation specifically says it will safely allow flat towing* * = after installing base plates and tow bar, and aftermarket braking unit, and wiring tail, turn and stop lamps. Oh, and fixing the defectively designed “DEATH WOBBLE” (see below). Pros: Nice Jeep. Top of the line Cherokee. Every electronic and safety add-on known to mankind. $42k via Costco buying program in 2014. First year model (see “cons” below). Note to self - “Dont buy first year model of any car” Drives nice when everything works. Stylish. Matches the paint scheme on the Uberbounder. Tows well ONCE POWER STEERING MODIFICATIONS are done. SEE VERY IMPORTANT WARNING BELOW with photos of what happens if you dont. Cons: 9 speed transmission is nothing but trouble. On our 3rd tranny at 66K miles. Tranny is made of plastic (really). So is oil cooler which will melt and crack and make a mess and make un drivable until fixed. Replacements of all of the above will break again. Off topic: Just realized saying “The Tranny is made of plastic” made me snort like the 11 year old that I am, at the same time look around to see if I will get cancelled 🙂 Back on topic: Console screen “All in one media and everything controller” overheats, because solder on the graphics chip goes bad like on the Xbox from Microsoft. Must be replaced (can’t control A/C, most other systems). Also on our third one. Only replacement is “remanufactured from Jeep”. Remans still have same problem. ‘Ungodly’ expensive ($2400 installed and reprogrammed). They keep your broken one to remanufacture and resell. Electronic power steering pump must be modded, or you can’t tow safely, irrespective of what the documentation or dealer says. Electronic power steering pump mods (must be done by dealer) Jeep will deny it is a problem, and try and refuse to pay for it ($700+) The problem: When in flat tow mode, electronic power steering is unpowered when towing (before modifications). THIS CAN AND WILL RESULT IN A “death wobble” (Google “Jeep death wobble”) as the jeep steering wobbles quickly left and right uncontrollably while being towed. Think shopping cart wheel with bad castor setup - Going high speed - With you riding in the shopping cart. At low speed, just stop. It will stabilize so you can continue. AT HIGH SPEED, THE WOBBLING WILL BREAK LOOSE THE TOW BAR AND/OR TOW BASE-PLATES, AND THE JEEP WILL DETACH! This happened to us at 55mph going over a Cascade mountain pass in the Washington with a 500’ cliff next to us. It is terrifying. Thank god for safety cables tying the Jeep frame to the broken-off baseplate. “Pucker Factor” = 10+ My insurance company sued Jeep for the cost of the crash because Jeep lied and said they had installed the fix and hadn’t. Jeep settled. The fix involves running a new power circuit to the electronic power steering pump, modifying the power steering CAN-BUS circuit with a 120 terminating resistor circuit and cable, installing a hidden safety switch in the center console, an extra fuse in the engine bay, and us running a battery charging circuit and module from the RV to the Jeep. Contact Jeep corporate and be prepared to fight them, as expected. Google is your friend. This is a very well known problem that Jeep still denies despite dealer safety notices. Problem years 2014-2018 on All Cherokee models that can be flat towed. Looks nice when all is fine though: Taken just after the “nice view” photos when the Death Wobble broke the base plate off: RV only had a small scratch on the back “bumper” area. - John Edited March 4, 2023 by StellaTariche 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacwjames Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, StellaTariche said: I have a 2014 Jeep Cherokee Limited with the special “flat tow” capable transfer case. This $3k+ Transmission upgrade is standard on the Trailhook model, BTW. Jeep dealer and documentation specifically says it will safely allow flat towing* * = after installing base plates and tow bar, and aftermarket braking unit, and wiring tail, turn and stop lamps. Oh, and fixing the defectively designed “DEATH WOBBLE” (see below). Pros: Nice Jeep. Top of the line Cherokee. Every electronic and safety add-on known to mankind. $42k via Costco buying program in 2014. First year model (see “cons” below). Note to self - “Dont buy first year model of any car” Drives nice when everything works. Stylish. Matches the paint scheme on the Uberbounder. Tows well ONCE POWER STEERING MODIFICATIONS are done. SEE VERY IMPORTANT WARNING BELOW with photos of what happens if you dont. Cons: 9 speed transmission is nothing but trouble. On our 3rd tranny at 66K miles. Tranny is made of plastic (really). So is oil cooler which will melt and crack and make a mess and make un drivable until fixed. Replacements of all of the above will break again. Off topic: Just realized saying “The Tranny is made of plastic” made me snort like the 11 year old that I am, at the same time look around to see if I will get cancelled 🙂 Back on topic: Console screen “All in one media and everything controller” overheats, because solder on the graphics chip goes bad like on the Xbox from Microsoft. Must be replaced (can’t control A/C, most other systems). Also on our third one. Only replacement is “remanufactured from Jeep”. Remans still have same problem. ‘Ungodly’ expensive ($2400 installed and reprogrammed). They keep your broken one to remanufacture and resell. Electronic power steering pump must be modded, or you can’t tow safely, irrespective of what the documentation or dealer says. Electronic power steering pump mods (must be done by dealer) Jeep will deny it is a problem, and try and refuse to pay for it ($700+) The problem: When in flat tow mode, electronic power steering is unpowered when towing (before modifications). THIS CAN AND WILL RESULT IN A “death wobble” (Google “Jeep death wobble”) as the jeep steering wobbles quickly left and right uncontrollably while being towed. Think shopping cart wheel with bad castor setup - Going high speed - With you riding in the shopping cart. At low speed, just stop. It will stabilize so you can continue. AT HIGH SPEED, THE WOBBLING WILL BREAK LOOSE THE TOW BAR AND/OR TOW BASE-PLATES, AND THE JEEP WILL DETACH! This happened to us at 55mph going over a Cascade mountain pass in the Washington with a 500’ cliff next to us. It is terrifying. Thank god for safety cables tying the Jeep frame to the broken-off baseplate. My insurance company sued Jeep for the cost of the crash because Jeep lied and said they had installed the fix and hadn’t. Jeep settled. The fix involves running a new power circuit to the electronic power steering pump, modifying the power steering CAN-BUS circuit with a 120 terminating resistor circuit and cable, installing a hidden safety switch in the center console, an extra fuse in the engine bay, and us running a battery charging circuit and module from the RV to the Jeep. Contact Jeep corporate and be prepared to fight them, as expected. Google is your friend. This is a very well known problem that Jeep still denies despite dealer safety notices. Problem years 2014-2018 on All Cherokee models that can be flat towed. Looks nice when all is fine though: Taken just after the “nice view” photos when the Death Wobble broke the base plate off: RV only had a small scratch on the back “bumper” area. - John This is why I just decided to keep mine, I think I've fought all the battles and it now seems to be pretty reliable. It is pretty much used as a toad so buying something newer with the potential for problems doesn't make sense!! FWIW, this is a common problem in several different make/models. Last year a friend of mine was looking to buy a used Jeep, not sure what model but it was a fairly new year. He said he test drove two Jeeps and while doing ~45mph both of them developed the death wobble. He contact me and I did a search and sure enough, the make/model/year he was looking at had a big problem, there was actually a class action suit filed from some owners. Another friend has a Ford 250 pickup, nice & fancy truck, relatively low miles. It has developed a death wobble twice, the first time they replaced the steering stabilizer and said after that he was on his own. Last month coming back from Nebraska highway speed it did the same thing, he said he almost wrecked. He contacted me and I did some searches and some owners, after complaining to NHSTA was able to take the rig back in, so he did contact NHSTA and the rep contacted Ford and they scheduled an appointment to have it looked at again. Another friend had a big Dodge truck, pulling a big trailer, just about wrecked when it developed the death wobble. I actually saw him at the Dodge dealer while he was getting it looked at. Told him not to trust or believe anything they told him, this was the same dealer that my wife had problems at with her van and they tried to charge me a ~$250 diagnostic fee even though I new what was wrong and the part that needed to be changed (which I ultimately did myself). Edited March 4, 2023 by jacwjames 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimc99999 Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, StellaTariche said: I have a 2014 Jeep Cherokee Limited with the special “flat tow” capable transfer case. This $3k+ Transmission upgrade is standard on the Trailhook model, BTW. Jeep dealer and documentation specifically says it will safely allow flat towing* * = after installing base plates and tow bar, and aftermarket braking unit, and wiring tail, turn and stop lamps. Oh, and fixing the defectively designed “DEATH WOBBLE” (see below). On 2014-2023 Jeep Cherokee, almost any trim can come with Active Drive II, which is the PTU (similar to transfer case) with 4WD Low and neutral. All Trailhawks have it. We found a used 2018 Overland with AD2 when we were picking up a vehicle to flat tow. For off-roading, the Trailhawk has much better approach angle and a locking rear diff, otherwise pretty much any AD2 Cherokee has pretty much the same capability. Our 2018 has 66K miles now, we have dragged it around 20K miles and since it was set up for flat towing when we bought it, an unknown amount of flat towing miles from previous owner. No problems so far with the transmission. When we bought it I asked the dealer to install the flat tow harness, but they said according to the VIN it didn't need it. The tech guy was surprised, since they had installed that harness on 2018 Cherokees previously. We've also had no problems with the UConnect console. If anyone is considering a Cherokee for a toad, I'd recommend 2019+ Jeep Cherokee with the new headlight style. No tow harness necessary, pretty reliable, and I think 2019+ has the 4G modem so you can use the remote start/lock/unlock functionality if you want. Our 2018 still had the 3G cellular modem and beginning of last year all 3G networks were apparently turned off. All Active Drive II Cherokees also have all the pieces of the tow package (trans cooler, diff gear ratio) except the hitch and programming, with 4500lb tow rating. When ours got rear-ended I had the body shop install the factory hitch and appropriate bumper, and it was another $200 for a dealer to tell the computer to activate the trailer harness. It can be nice having a vehicle that can get a little off the beaten path. Edited March 4, 2023 by jimc99999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1nolaguy Posted March 4, 2023 Author Share Posted March 4, 2023 Thanks Jim and Stella for sharing such detailed and important information. It is just one of the reasons I love this group. Such posts help others make more informed decisions. I was just about to consider more strongly going new or near new as this toad will also most likely be our daily driver. Now I am thinking it is important to learn as much about others experience with specific models and brands before pulling the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W7BE_Bob Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 Quote Problem years 2014-2018 on All Cherokee models that can be flat towed. Not all as my 2014 Grand Cherokee Overland does not have EPS. The steering is hydraulic which has the damping to prevent "death wobble". An electric motor drives the pump but the remaining system is hydraulic. And Jeep has significant "death wobble" problems that they did not want to fix. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven P Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 I would add if you buy a vehicle w a warranty, make sure that flat towing or required mods will not void that warranty. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W7BE_Bob Posted March 4, 2023 Share Posted March 4, 2023 And make sure that flat towing is written documentation from the mfg. Any dealer, telcon, etc information will not be a basis for compensation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimc99999 Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 5 hours ago, W7BE_Bob said: Not all as my 2014 Grand Cherokee Overland does not have EPS. The steering is hydraulic which has the damping to prevent "death wobble". An electric motor drives the pump but the remaining system is hydraulic. And Jeep has significant "death wobble" problems that they did not want to fix. Do 2012-2022 (WK2) Grand Cherokee's have problems with death wobble? They're completely different from the Cherokee. The Cherokee 2014+ (KL) has a transverse engine and transaxle with a PTU (FWD-based layout). The Grand Cherokee has a longitudinal engine with a transfer case (RWD-based layout). I'd expect the steering system to be different as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W7BE_Bob Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 54 minutes ago, jimc99999 said: Do 2012-2022 (WK2) Grand Cherokee's have problems with death wobble? My suggestion is to check on iRV2 as those folks were and probably still are very knowledgable on the toad subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt2137 Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 On 3/3/2023 at 6:46 PM, dl_racing427 said: The 2012 to 2018 ford focus and fiesta both have a problem trans but there is a easy fix that will work extend the life of these trans, these trans are basically manual trans with a auto shifter and clutch dust gets in and on the worm gear and the little electric motor cant move it up and down. Look up this u tube name 12 to 18 ford focus slipping ? no reverse? no drive? This can explain it better than i can. The tool to use for this is a (excuse the caps was a paste from e bay)For Ford benz DSG gearbox clutch motor electromechanical unit unlocking tool . The fiesta also had a ground problem dont know about the focus but suspect it does also, there are 3 ground straps that the paint was not removed from and the ground was making through the threads and the ground will fail the fix is remove the paint and i used a dielectric past to get a better ground on my sister’s car also used the little tool (name above)to run the worm gear down while spray brake cleaner and wd40 the worm gear is spring loaded up dont get to rough with it. Real simple fix as most of these cars will have trouble before 10000 miles and most cases before that hope this helps some of you guys that has this car, i think anyone could do this simple fix. walt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ray Davis Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 23 hours ago, StellaTariche said: have a 2014 Jeep Cherokee Limited with the special “flat tow” capable transfer case. This $3k+ Transmission upgrade is standard on the Trailhook model, BTW. Jeep dealer and documentation specifically says it will safely allow flat towing* * = after installing base plates and tow bar, and aftermarket braking unit, and wiring tail, turn and stop lamps. Oh, and fixing the defectively designed “DEATH WOBBLE” (see below). Wow, John, I didn't realize how violent & destructive the death wobble can be. Did the car have to be towed or did you pick up the pieces & head home? Thanks for the pictures, they really are worth a thousand words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellaTariche Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 (edited) Hi Ray. Step 1: Change skivies. Steps 2-n: No cell service in the mountain. No Zipcode either (Forest Service land) Unhooked jeep. Drove Uberbounder 20 miles to call for service tow. Tow was covered by RV policy since it was connected - hehe was :) Collected the parts. Used steel wire to hold Bumper together. Mostly cosmetic damage and broken A/C line. and some replacement big metal parts that held the base plates on to the unibody. Towed Jeep to campsite. Used 50 metal wire ties and steel picture hanging wire to put it back together. Love those things Stayed a week for a friends wedding. The Fetching Mrs Taylor drove Jeep back to Colorado with no A/C and windows open (fire season that year had the sky filled with smoke). I followed in the uberbounder. Could have rented a car trailer and towed trailer back with RV. Can't remember why we didn't. Turns out we could have had the A/C fixed in a day and had a much nice ride back. Stupid me. BTW, Jeep brake controller worked just like it was supposed to - except I hit the brakes in the RV, because seeing your Jeep trying to pass you on the right on a mountain cliff road is unnerving and all your logic and training goes out the window. I should have just hit the "BRAKE" button on the brake controller and I could have avoided some of the damage - Jeep just would have stopped. My hitting the RV brakes shoved the detached Jeep tow bar under the rear of the RV. BTW, they should create an "RV driving simulator" to practice things like that and tire blowouts. (Hey, there's a product idea!) When back to Colorado, it was all bolt on fixes - no cutting or welding were ever needed. Lots of new plastic thingies. Oh, and fight with Jeep FCA corporate. Edited March 5, 2023 by StellaTariche 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ray Davis Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 John, 10-4 on the skivvies, you must be a Navy guy, I haven't heard that term in a long time. I like your I can do this attitude, we have so many on here that are the same way, and it's a big part of why this forum is the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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