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Lithium Batteries


Hotrod

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Bill,

I am just seeing what a reply looks like.  I going to start a fire storm😂😂

I don't like Li-ons they are way too expensive for the application 🤒 

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Larry,

The cost has been the problem. But that has changed and anyone who fails to recognize this will get caught off guard. 
 

As a result of the current availability, probably a flooding of the market , the prices have come way down.

1. At 250$ per kWh,  the cost is lower than agm.

2. Lifepo4 chemistry has electrical characteristics that are very close to lead acid. 12.8v nominal. 13.8v float. 14.6v charge.

3. Its very safe.

4. four times the gravimetric density. Ie is so much lighter. 
 

5. takes less space. 
 

6. 2000 cycles at 80pct dod. 100pct dod capable. 

7. Sealed, no mess or venting. Mount in any position. 

8. Low internal resistance. Very efficient charging and discharging. Discharge curve is very flat. Makes inverters very happy.

9. They weigh way less. That gives you more load capacity or better fuel mileage. I love my 8 agms but they weigh about 600lb. I could pull out 500lb.

You could replace your house batteries for say 1500$ and they would be the last ones you ever buy and they work so much better than lead anchors .
 

The cost to do my cart with lithium and solar will be less than new flooded batteries. The weight will be 25 percent less. The performance will be better. I’ll have storage under the seat , a place for an ice chest etc.

Lead is history, two generations in arrears. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/10/2019 at 10:51 AM, jacwjames said:

Where is the best source for the Lifepo4 battery.  I did a quick search and only found them in 12 volt.  What size do you recommend. 

I will have to replace my old batteries soon and looking for options.  I can buy 4 AGM from Sams for ~$160 this month.

I am going to be in the same boat as my 8 flooded 6v house batteries are dated 2013.  They have been maintained well as I keep them topped off every month with Di water and there is a Power Pulse connected to each 4 battery bank so they seem to be holding up for now.   I just replaced my two 12v chassis batteries in September and am expecting I'll be having to replace all of the house batteries soon as they were all pretty much the same age as the chassis batteries.  I would also be interested in the source of these 'inexpensive' Li batteries.

Mike

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On 11/20/2019 at 12:26 PM, Frank McElroy said:

Bill, are you able to post a few pictures of your lithium setup?

I'm also testing out the email alerts to see how well they work.

 

1 hour ago, Mike H said:

I am going to be in the same boat as my 8 flooded 6v house batteries are dated 2013.  They have been maintained well as I keep them topped off every month with Di water and there is a Power Pulse connected to each 4 battery bank so they seem to be holding up for now.   I just replaced my two 12v chassis batteries in September and am expecting I'll be having to replace all of the house batteries soon as they were all pretty much the same age as the chassis batteries.  I would also be interested in the source of these 'inexpensive' Li batteries.

Mike

They have some on Amazon.  400ah for 1499$. That’s 288 per kWh. Look real nice. 
That comes with a charger too. 


Lifepo4 100ah 200ah 300ah 400ah 12V Lithium ion Battery for Solar System/Motor Home/Boat/Golf Carts car battery (12V 400ah ×1pcs) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SXK92SS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_6Kx8DbFQSHSZ1

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On 12/10/2019 at 9:51 AM, jacwjames said:

Where is the best source for the Lifepo4 battery.  I did a quick search and only found them in 12 volt.  What size do you recommend. 

I will have to replace my old batteries soon and looking for options.  I can buy 4 AGM from Sams for ~$160 this month.

I have 8 of the duracell gc2 agms In my dynasty and they work very well. I’m on year number 6 with them and they still have full capacity. However they do weigh about 600 lb with Cables. 
 

When they need replacing and hopefully that won’t be soon, I’ll replace them with 100lb of lithium . It has even lower internal resistance than the agms and charges and discharged even more efficiently. I don’t see a huge price difference any more. 

On 11/20/2019 at 12:26 PM, Frank McElroy said:

Bill, are you able to post a few pictures of your lithium setup?

I'm also testing out the email alerts to see how well they work.1EDCE17F-499F-49B8-9F34-147A2F9ACC16.thumb.jpeg.31a97f76bc580ce250ffe1258439bf12.jpeg

BC3E3964-91A8-4A2D-B043-ECB1599CEB53.thumb.jpeg.e4b1be427b13e163e3e3fc04d22ee546.jpeg9FC4D34E-9A61-4213-9F7A-01440223EAAA.thumb.jpeg.15c2921a636b614abd6f11c4c6eb269b.jpeg

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I did review the specs of the lithium batteries, looks good and weight less then 80 lb. 

What concerns are there for temperature, I've seen where people actually had to insulate the compartment to protect from the cold. 

Still a little pricey compared to the AGM's available at Sam's but something to consider. 

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3 hours ago, jacwjames said:

I did review the specs of the lithium batteries, looks good and weight less then 80 lb. 

What concerns are there for temperature, I've seen where people actually had to insulate the compartment to protect from the cold. 

Still a little pricey compared to the AGM's available at Sam's but something to consider. 

I’m not sure the zero Deg c  charge number is a big problem. Batteries are generally a few degrees above ambient when used. Yes wrapping with a blanket would raise the temp.  They can be discharged and stored as low as -20C,

It should be noted that a lead acid battery can be destroyed by freezing it and it will freeze at 32f if it’s fully discharged.

You might want to check the latest pricing. 1500$ on amazon will get you a 400ah Lifepo4 12v battery with a charger included that weighs about 100lb. You can use all of it so it’s equivalent to 8 golf cart batteries . Actually it’s a lot better because the output voltage is about 13v until it’s almost discharged. Inverters love it. Lithium’s operate at a much higher efficiency than lead anchors.

The 50ah of 48v lithium’s that I put in my golf cart only weigh 50lb. They take half the space of the lead batteries I took out and the atmosphere is not corrosive . The well that held two of my lead batteries is now storage. The 4 lead batteries I took our weighed 300 lb.

I have a 30-35 mile range.  5-10 miles of that range come from the solar panel roof.  If I only use it 5-10 miles a day I will never have to put the charger on it. 

I posted an article about lithium flashlight batteries that charge on usb on FB . They cost 10$ apiece and put out 1.5v flat until they turn off. They can be recharged 2000 times (at least that is what they say). So if true, that ie one penny per pair of D cells per full use and they can power a big mag light for over 5 hours . 
 

If you take 500lb out of a 40000 lb rv, the mpg related to rolling resistance will increase about 12 percent. That will be about a 3 or more percent increase in overall mpg which is 150$ a year if you spend 5000$ a year on fuel. Over 10 years , your get your money back, 1500$. What’s not to like about that?

bill g aka hotrod 06 dynasty

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I have a RC7 Xantrex inverter, will this be capable of charging the lithium battery?  I checked the manual and it has 3 settings, Gel Cell, Lead Acid, and AGM.  Which setting would work.

I was contemplating adding extra batteries to better handle the additional load of the new Samsung RF18 I just installed.  This might be a better overall solution considering the existing space and weight savings. 

 

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Lifepo4 that I read about float at 13.8 and charge at 14.4-14.6.

You might have settings that are compatible . I don’t know. But the way the lithium chargers work to fill them up is to hold the charge voltage, 14.6 on them when the charger is capable of that and then hold that voltage until the battery demand reduces to nil.

Now most of these batteries have BMS built in and they will disconnect if they get over voltages. 
 

With your rc7, it’s going to hold the charge voltage for a set time like 2 hours . Will it stop and drop to float before that time is up. I doubt it since the house loads appear to the charger as the battery taking current. 
 

The lithium’s I put in my cart don’t need the constant voltage charge for very long to become fully charged . Maybe only 5 minutes before the current drops off. 
 

So what happens if the battery becomes full and disconnects but the charger stays at 14.6 supplying house loads because it thinks the batteries are still taking current . I think nothing happens and it doesn’t bother the batteries in with bms but please research that . 

 

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Bill,  Thanks for reply.  The link to the battery you provided indicates it has it's own quick charger.  How would the inverter interacte with this??   Not sure if there is an option to disable the inverter charger or not. 

Here are the options for the RC7 as far as charging different types of batteries

image.png.891ca2792c33f5e486979327e437369d.png

The Flooded Lead Acid battery option looks like the best option for charging.

 

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20 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

 

Bill,  Thanks for reply.  The link to the battery you provided indicates it has it's own quick charger.  How would the inverter interacte with this??   Not sure if there is an option to disable the inverter charger or not. 

Here are the options for the RC7 as far as charging different types of batteries

image.png.891ca2792c33f5e486979327e437369d.png

The Flooded Lead Acid battery option looks like the best option for charging.

 

You would have to make sure the equalize is defeated. I think I would start with the Gell setting. 
 

I don’t know if the included charger is built in or separate. Im not sure how they would interact but probably not an issue. The lifepo4 charger will go to cv and apply 14.6 until its charged. In an rv where there is a constant load , I don’t know how it would tell unless It is built in and uses a separate charge path. Some lithium bms systems allow for a separate charge path .. that would be nice so it could tell when the battery stops taking a charge . 
 

You can tell from the following graph when the battery is charged it stops taking anything .  That’s per cell so multiply x 4.
 

A843C1FF-B57D-441D-9439-628996238CD8.thumb.png.9b2903cbc0b41df68d0976a60f89987f.png

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On 11/19/2019 at 9:16 AM, Hotrod said:

I have found lifepo4, lithium iron phosphate batteries now to cost less than AGMs.... and only a small fraction of the weight:

I just replaced four deep cycle 6V AGMs that I had inadvertently run down to <10V, with three 12V Lifepo4 group 31 batteries, upgrading from 250AH (500AH @ 50%) to 300AH, & losing 150#!  Also upgraded Magnum ME2012 MSW to Victron 12/120/3000/150A SW inverter.  All to accommodate new 21cf RR (residential refrigerator) that replaced failed 13 Y/O 12cf NoCold.  Steep learning curve ahead!

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55 minutes ago, johncvandoren@gmail.com said:

I just replaced four deep cycle 6V AGMs that I had inadvertently run down to <10V, with three 12V Lifepo4 group 31 batteries, upgrading from 250AH (500AH @ 50%) to 300AH, & losing 150#!  Also upgraded Magnum ME2012 MSW to Victron 12/120/3000/150A SW inverter.  All to accommodate new 21cf RR (residential refrigerator) that replaced failed 13 Y/O 12cf NoCold.  Steep learning curve ahead!

Sounds like fun to me. I bet you will be impressed with the lifepo4. Make sure you set the victron to not exceed the maximum charge rate (if it can ).  Keep us posted on how it goes.

Speaking of accidental run down I pulled 864ah out of my agms which are on year six before my refer inverter started complaining . They charged back up. When they go bad , hopefully not for years, I’ll be putting in lifepo4 and taking out 500lb of lead.

Shunbin has a 400ah 12v lifepo4 with a Charger for 1499 on amazon. That would replace my 8 agms for pretty much the same price as agms.  I might need a new inverter charger too though .

 

 

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On 12/13/2019 at 6:37 AM, jacwjames said:

 

Bill,  Thanks for reply.  The link to the battery you provided indicates it has it's own quick charger.  How would the inverter interacte with this??   Not sure if there is an option to disable the inverter charger or not. 

Here are the options for the RC7 as far as charging different types of batteries

image.png.891ca2792c33f5e486979327e437369d.png

The Flooded Lead Acid battery option looks like the best option for charging.

 

The Magnum ME2012 has a charger on/off button on the display.

Edited by W7BE_Bob
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I've reread the manual for my RV7 /Xantrex inverter and cannot find an option to turn off the charging function.  Does anyone know if this is possible? 

There is a circuit breaker on the inverter itself for the charging function, would it be possible to wire in a switch?

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11 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

I've reread the manual for my RV7 /Xantrex inverter and cannot find an option to turn off the charging function.  Does anyone know if this is possible? 

There is a circuit breaker on the inverter itself for the charging function, would it be possible to wire in a switch?

PM me for additional support on this issue.

 

3 hours ago, W7BE_Bob said:

The Magnum ME2012 has a charger on/off button on the display.

Have you a WH meter on the solar install to see what daily harvest you are achieving ? 
 

bill g 06 Dynasty

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18 hours ago, Hotrod said:

Sounds like fun to me. I bet you will be impressed with the lifepo4. Make sure you set the victron to not exceed the maximum charge rate (if it can ).  Keep us posted on how it goes.

Speaking of accidental run down I pulled 864ah out of my agms which are on year six before my refer inverter started complaining . They charged back up. When they go bad , hopefully not for years, I’ll be putting in lifepo4 and taking out 500lb of lead.

Shunbin has a 400ah 12v lifepo4 with a Charger for 1499 on amazon. That would replace my 8 agms for pretty much the same price as agms.  I might need a new inverter charger too though .

 

 

I should have included the brand: got 3 Battle Born 12v $870 ea at the FMCA Int’l in Minot.  

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On 11/19/2019 at 12:16 PM, Hotrod said:

I have found lifepo4, lithium iron phosphate batteries now to cost less than AGMs.... and only a small fraction of the weight:

Bill,

A few years back when I was still consulting with a major Nuclear Industry company we needed a battery for a special application in a custom designed motor drive system. That was about the time the news was filled with fire related accidents on airlines traced back to batteries. Upper management was getting jittery about placing a battery in the drive system. My co-worker and I did some research and settled on the lithium iron phosphate battery because it was safe when shorted out. You can even drive a nail thru a fully charged battery and it will not catch fire.

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27 minutes ago, wobrian@myglnc.com said:

John or Bill,

Are you saying that I can buy 1 Lifepo4 400AH to replace all eight   batteries for my Dynasty?

Woody O

Yes. You need a charger that can charge it like a Victron inverter Charger. It may be that the newer magnums can also .. I just don’t know. $1499 on amazon. Weighs less than 100 lb.  If you have 8 gc2 you would lose about 450lb in the exchange.  I have a lithium conversation going on FB.  I don’t profess to have all the details regarding using with coach. I like what i see a lot.

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Woody,,

At least one company may make a single battery* to replace your eight, but you didn’t say what size batteries you have, their voltage, and if in series/parallel.   More importantly, you need to know how many amp-hours you have, and how many AH you need to run all your gear & appliances.  A pair of 6V in series do not add their AH together.  Pairs of batteries do add their AH.  However, keep in mind that lead-acid batteries give you only 50% of use.  I’m my case I had four 250AH deep cycle 6V batteries in series then parallel, so the two pair were rated at 500AH.  At 50% SOC, that left me with 250 useable AH.  I replaced them with three Battle Born 100AH Lifepo4 batteries, giving me 300AH—all useable.  These and a Victron 3000 Inverter/Charger keep my RR running well through the night. 

*One vendor showed me their 300AH Lithium battery costing $5995!

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OK, I have eight six volt batteries powering the coach including the residential refer., wired in series and parallel.   I have deep cycle golf cart batteries rated at 226AH @ 20 H I see where the Shunbin has a 400AHrs. So, if I figured it right, I have 904AH, which divided by two , gives me 450AH of usable power.  I see Lifepo4 by Shunbin has a 400AH 12 volt for $1499 w/charger.

I'm  looking to replace them. Is this a close enough match?

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