"2004 Safari Heating issues" MERGED into original 5 Button HVAC issues 2004 Safari Cheetah Topic

[Les Hurdle]

Hi Folks,

Very new here... a Fleetwood convert 😉

2004 Cheetah.

Most things work ok. Don't seem to be able to 'control' the zone areas eg; flip to 1 but 2 is still visual, also unabl to change fan speed.

Help

Les

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Tom Cherry
SECOND MERGING OF THREE TOPICS on this issue

[vito.a]

You probably need to clean the ends of the RJ11 telephone cords, especially under each A/C.  Open the vent under each A/C on the inside of the coach.  You'll find a phone cord junction.  Remove the phone cords and clean the ends with Deoxit.   It wouldn't hurt to clean the RJ11 phone cord ends where they plug into the back of the thermostat.  

After that's complete, turn the thermostat off using the black slide switch on the underside. Then hold down both top and bottom buttons simultaneously while turning the thermostat on.  You will see FF in the display.  Then everything should operate normally.  

Good luck!

Edited April 10, 2023 by vito.a

[Tom Cherry]

Ditto to what Vito suggested.  Alcohol & Q-tips or electronic (NOT ELECTRICAL) cleaner works.  You have to drop the covers or the filter covers.  Clean the contacts in the dual inline female-female connectors also.  I have replaced my connectors.  Plug and unplug them a few times to burnish.

After you get ot working, do NOT use the bottom switch to turn off. Use the Zone and then the Mode to OFF.  The switches are typically the first failure point and the thermostat is no longer made so you have to scrounge.

Assume you have heat pumps.  Run them on HP for a while, then on AC.  Maybe 10 minutes.  Cycle them back and forth about 3 times to get the reversing valve “moving” and working.

BTW.  If you camp in high humidity area, use AUTO or HIGH fan, otherwise, you will have issues and units will not work well.  That is in some manuals.  You need to wash and dry the filters frequently.  Amazon sells the lower cover with a new filter for maybe $15…so if your covers are “less than pristine”, thats a great deal as the filters are almost $10.

Sometime pull the roof covers and use HVAC coil cleaner or a week “SimpleGreen” solution and get the crap off the coils.  Compressed ait or vacuum works….never can tell if critters or insects have blocked them

[Les Hurdle]

Hi Tom,

 

Many thanks for the help here.

I've had a Fleetwood storm for years which compared the coach I now have was basic, but never broke down........  so il I come across as dumb..... correct.

 

My coach does not have a ladder at my age one breaks if one falls ;-((

 

Les

 

 

[Les Hurdle]

I did clean the telephone jacks, cycled to FF...... seems to work.

Then I noticed I can't access low fan speed...... I live at 5000 feet, is this the reason......... if not what else can I try?

Thanks

Les

 

[Tom Cherry]

On 4/14/2023 at 5:34 PM, Les Hurdle said:

I did clean the telephone jacks, cycled to FF...... seems to work.

Then I noticed I can't access low fan speed...... I live at 5000 feet, is this the reason......... if not what else can I try?

Thanks

Les

 

You have to be in the fan mode.  Read this manual 

https://myrvworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Duo-Therm-5-Button-CCC-Operating-Instructions.pdf

DuoTherm recommends using the auto for most conditions.  This is especially true in the high humidity.  Low will give you issues.  Most Monaco manuals have a warning about that.  If you can’t get the fan to change, my next step would be to replace the RJ11 dual inline connectors you will need 3. ,buy a pack of 4 or 6 from amazon and have a spare.  You need to push them in and take out a few times.

NO joy….then some folks have snipped off the male ends and reterminated. The issues are usually in the connections.  You “may” have a bum thermostat.  You can take off and clean the pads behind the buttons.  Alcohol works well.  FF means it was reset, but if there is a breakdown in one of the Multipllex signals, then it will not work.  FF does not troubleshoot….just resets.  
.

 

[Les Hurdle]

I am going to appear a complete dunce..... how do you remove the panel which controls a/c etc functions?

It looks like someone added silicon at some point.......... does one just squeeze the side or something?

L

 

[Ivan K]

1 hour ago, Les Hurdle said:

I am going to appear a complete dunce..... how do you remove the panel which controls a/c etc functions?

It looks like someone added silicon at some point.......... does one just squeeze the side or something?

L

 

If you are referring to the 5 button wall thermostat, it has a tab in bottom center that you slightly pull down and pull off. Might use a screwdriver or similar to reach it.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Les Hurdle said:

I am going to appear a complete dunce..... how do you remove the panel which controls a/c etc functions?

It looks like someone added silicon at some point.......... does one just squeeze the side or something?

L

 

http://bryantrv.com/docs2/temp/ccc5-2.pdf

https://newpar.newmarcorp.com/instance1Env99NEWMAR/html/images/45933P.pdf

Ok….I have pulled mine.  It is simple and I had to remember how I did it.  There are two links above that describe how the systems work.  I know you want to know the time….not how to build a watch….but….these are good.

next up, two links below,  the first is a great trouble shooting and I learned some stuff.  The second was to find a memory crutch to removing the thermostat from the wall.  All I remember is was that me and Mr. Swiss Army knife got it off in less than 25 seconds.  There is a tab on the bottom….I think you like that.

NOW when you get it off, there MAY BE a a second wire, in addition to the “phone cable” on.  Also, it you pay attention to the first video the guy describes the fact that there is NOT a standard phone cable in use.   It’s a “communications cable” and the order of the wires in the male ends is different.  You can use a standard phone dual inline connector….as you have 4 terminals in and out….so wire order doesn’t matter.  But if you replace or make a new cable….it must have the crossover or wiring exactly like what is there…..and that ain’t the same order as a phone system.

OK….now supposition….if someone has glued or siliconed on the cover, then tinkering hands, or fumble fingers, have been at work.  They took it apart.  WHY?  Either broke it or didn’t know what they were doing.  NOT GOOD.

My first thought is “does it work OK” except for being able to change fan speeds?  If so….I would not tear into or fix something that some of us rarely use.  I keep mine in the AUTO.  Now some will turn on a rear HP or AC in low and let it run all night….so that the cycling on and off of the compressor is not noticeable.

The other comment is that it is recommended that you use the mode button to turn off each zone.  You can not buy a new 5 button thermostat.  When you have to replace a HVAC roof unit, it is cheaper to put in both.  The 5 button Thermostat will not work on new units.  If you do the install piecemeal, you have to modify the new unit and spend $500 to get it to work with the old.  Then you spend $150 - $200 to get it back to how it came out of the box to work with the second new unit and the new thermostat.  Many topics on this.

Decide if all functions are working…..if only fan, then I would not try to fix something that is generally functional.  You can buy a $400 super Gee whiz electronic thermostat that will work….but then, you have to spend $300 or more for each new unit to get them to work….or you put in both and buy the newer correct thermostat.  Unfortunately, this is how it works.  There is not replacement thermostat that will work with a mix of old and new….so, in effect, trying to mix them, costs you a lot more than just replacing both at once.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Les Hurdle]

Thanks for the help everyone/Tom......... It's a 'new' coach to me and I'm finding many things which don't quite work, but still like it....   the weather might be warm enough today to see if The a/c works ;-))

 

 

 

[daveyjo]

My thermostat seems to work OK, but the accuracy of it sure doesn't agree with a temperature indicator on a couple of portable clock/thermometers.  Any thoughts?

Dave Jones

2005 HR Scepter

[Tom Cherry]

7 minutes ago, daveyjo said:

My thermostat seems to work OK, but the accuracy of it sure doesn't agree with a temperature indicator on a couple of portable clock/thermometers.  Any thoughts?

Dave Jones

2005 HR Scepter

In a word….it is FINE.  I have or thought I had the same issues.  So, here’s my take.  The system or thermostat has a temp sensor.  Monaco mounted them different places.  Sometimes on a wooden wall and sometimes on a large plastic coated sheet metal panel.  Mine is on the panel and I have taped a thermocouple rharbworks on my VOM to it.  It is fairly close.  In a home, the placement is somewhat critical, but eventually the walls and interior will stabilize and you have more insulation.  

In your MH, we have NO insulated windows and precious little in the roof.  Walls are better.  Then we have that sunroom in the cockpit area.  I don’t know the tolerance of the DuoTherm, but mine is OK.  BUT any remote sensor hanging or even attached to a wall or whatever, based on sunlight or cold or such might or will show a difference.  My best “non engineering” test is when I have mine at home for loading and if it is cool, run the HP or hot, the AC so we are comfortable loading and getting ready for a trip.  If I get out early…close to day break and look at one of the remote sensor lying in a tray (the one we hang outside) and compare it to the set point, they are close.  The MH stabilized over night and all interior surfaces were at ambient.

As to your bedroom, pull off the cover of the remote sensor….sometimes the assemblers buried the sensor.  It should be lose to the wall surface and folks have had to gently pull out a little.

You have a 38 and I have a 40.  Assuming you have two 15K units, you have 5% “more” capacity to heat/cool than I do. But if we had a 42, with two 15 and a 13.5….it would have 32% MORE “BTU’s”….based on the length.  Folks with 3 units complain way less about cooling or heating that folks like us with just two…

Hope this helps explain it.

[96 EVO]

1 hour ago, daveyjo said:

My thermostat seems to work OK, but the accuracy of it sure doesn't agree with a temperature indicator on a couple of portable clock/thermometers.  Any thoughts?

Dave Jones

2005 HR Scepter

One simple thing to check is that none of your ceiling diffusers are pointed directly at your thermostat, and bedroom remote temp sensor.

[Les Hurdle]

MODERATOR'S NOTE and EDIT

Forum rules, for simplicity, is NOT to start another topic that is related to or exactly the same as an ONGOING or RECENT Topic.  This causes members to repeat previous posts and the solution is harder for a member to chase down. The new topic has been merged with the one that is ongoing.  Thanks for understanding.

I have read many of the posts re a/c on eg; 2004 Cheetah........ must be honest some of the acronyms confuse me ;-))......... in my old Fleetwood one would run the a/c unit on fan for a few minutes then kick in the a/c.

Reading the Cheetah manual this doesn't appear to be the case.

Would it help to run the fan first?

Also 'zones' in the controller tend to flicker in the read out.

Can't just get 1 or 2 ?

 

Thanks for any help

 

Les

Edited April 29, 2023 by Tom Cherry
Duplicate or same topic post

[96 EVO]

Don't think it actually matters. The compressor has a built in delay.

I normally only run mine on hi-speed, so yes, my fans are running a min or so before the compressors kick in.

[Tom Cherry]

1 hour ago, Les Hurdle said:

MODERATOR'S NOTE and EDIT

Forum rules, for simplicity, is NOT to start another topic that is related to or exactly the same as an ONGOING or RECENT Topic.  This causes members to repeat previous posts and the solution is harder for a member to chase down. The new topic has been merged with the one that is ongoing.  Thanks for understanding.

I have read many of the posts re a/c on eg; 2004 Cheetah........ must be honest some of the acronyms confuse me ;-))......... in my old Fleetwood one would run the a/c unit on fan for a few minutes then kick in the a/c.

Reading the Cheetah manual this doesn't appear to be the case.

Would it help to run the fan first?

Also 'zones' in the controller tend to flicker in the read out.

Can't just get 1 or 2 ?

 

Thanks for any help

 

Les

@Les Hurdle

Two things.  Your recent post is an extension or pertains to the recent, ongoing. It was merged into the original. Rules are NOT to double post or "almost the same" post a new topic.  Thanks for understanding.

Now as to your post. You just reported an issue that was not included in the original post or your subsequent posts.  You have, most likely, a defective thermostat and someone (previous owner or tech) has tried to fix and repair it.  That is why it is "siliconed" back together.  

As was posted previously during the troubleshooting and such phase....  The ability to choose fan speeds is really a feature that most folks do NOT use.  BUT, if your thermostat is flickering and has a "flaky" display, then there is a problem.  

It COULD be that there is NOT sufficient DC voltage to run it.  So, you understand.  Two of the four wire "communications" cable provides DC power to the thermostat. That DC power comes in to BOTH the Control Modules.  If you have a 13.5KW unit, the Dometic Controller will be in the plenum and you access it from the inside.  If you have a 15KW unit, then you have to go to the roof to access it.  Monaco ran 12 VDC to the Control Module.  Technically, as long as ONE of the Control Modules has 12 VDC, it should work....but since Monaco ran power to BOTH Modules, that is a better or more reliable Voltage source.

The OTHER two wires are the "controls".  They put out a Multiplexed signal to each controller and that digital multiplexed (your HOME system is probably analog 24 VAC....these thermostats are SMART and DIGITAL and they are NOT like any home systems unless you have upgraded your system and gone to a NON WIRED thermostat. Even the SMART Thermostats (I have one that is a year old) are STILL hardwired and the ON and OFF of each component (AC, HP, Fan, Gas Burner, Humidifier and such) are ALL hard wired and NOT multiplexed.  Therefore they are more Fragile or Persnickety.

Go back to the posts.  I would replace the three connectors and see if that solves it.  If NOT, then you have to do METHODICAL trouble shooting.  You remove (you will have to break the silicone) and get the thermostat off the wall. Go the front AC. Here is where it is tricky.  There are TWO communications cables.  One goes to the second rear unit and the other is from the Thermostat male plug on the wall.  They ae NOT labeled.  Disconnect ONE.    You can have your wife use a paper clip on the wall connector.  Jumper between two of the wires.  Doesn't matter which.  Use your VOM on Continuity and see if you get a continuity OK or a circuit on the two same pins.  IF SO....label that one as THERMOSTAT.  The OTHER, obviously is the one going to the rear.

Now plug in the the connector from the control unit to the thermostat.  Leave the connector from the control module plugged into the rear. You have eliminated the communications line from the front.  Do the RESET (ZONE and MODE IN for 15 seconds. Turn ON the Thermostat and FF appears).  NOW....is it flaky? is it doing the same?  Can you change fan speeds.  IF THE SAME OR JUST LIKE IT WAS....then ODDS ARE you have a BAD thermostat...  OR...a bad (HIGHLY UNLIKELY) Control unit.

NOW....leave the Thermostat line disconnected.  Remove the inline connector and go to the rear unit.  There will be an unused Phone wire there.  Plug in the Thermostat.  Repeat the RESET.  Did that fix the issues.  IF NOT....You DO have a bad Thermostat.  Simple as that. The Thermostat doesn't care WHICH end it is plugged into.  It sees all the components and each control Module is set (Dip Switch Setting) to Zone 1 and Zone 2.  You have TRIED BOTH units and odds are of a BAD Phone plug are slim and none...

Bottom LINE....bad stat. NOW....you can start to look for a company that rebuilds them.   There were some posts about cleaning and such.  I don't know...but I took mine apart and did NOT have to glue it back together....I cleaned the pads and such and it works fine.  That was preventative...

https://www.nwrvsupply.com/product/repair-your-existing-dometic-duo-therm-4-button-comfort-control-center-you-must-send-your-old-thermo/

I personally, unless there is someone that rebuilds and understand HOW to test and such, would not "trust" just anyone.  Ebay sells "Refurbished Ones" for around $100.  NWRVSupply is a trusted vendor.  I bought parts, while on a trip, from them in 2018....went in the store and was amazed.  They bought out all the Monaco stuff.  I did NOT know they provided a repair shop. I would call them....tell them WHAT it is doing and how you tested it and let them advise.  Tell them it was "GLUED" back together....they MAY NOT want to...but will help you. They are $140 vs buying a "maybe refurbished" on Ebay....so I would lean to a known source...but that is just ME...you make the call. 

The ONLY OTHER option is the MicroAire replacement.  They used to provide phone support.  They cut back or else got too big and they are now NOT talking to you.  Their Systems are designed for REPLACEMENT....and the caveat...  YOU MUST HAVE A 100% RELIABLE HVAC SYSTEM THAT IS FUNCTIONAL AND THE ISSUE IS THE THERMOSTAT.  They will NOT help diagnose, as the tech said....we don't KNOW how to fix your system....we only GUARANTEE that if the Thermostat is faulty or you want a new and easier to use Thermostat, then ours will work.......as LONG as there are NO ISSUES or PROBLEMS with the system.

SO....assuming that everything works....you buy their new one.  If it does NOT work due to a cabling problem (Members have had cut cabling or bad plugs) or there is an issue with a HVAC control Module...you have GOT to get everything working....and know that it is ONLY the Thermostat.  Then the Microaire WILL work...because it is REVERSE engineered to work exactly (send out a multiplexed signal) with your units.  

That's about it.  Run the above tests.  IF the problem persists....then it is the STAT. 

NOW, One more comment....to boggle your brain (LOL). if you have it working fine on the rear zone and it is flaky on the front, the odds are there is a cabling issue or a nicked (hidden) or bad plug.  It might be worthwhile to purchase a crimper (Lowes or Amazon) and put on NEW male ends.  just MAKE SURE that you have the wires line up exactly as before....same color sequence....  

Good Luck....run the tests.....Then let us know...

Thanks.

[Les Hurdle]

apologies

 

much to learn invery sense

 

 

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, Les Hurdle said:

apologies

 

much to learn invery sense

 

 

not a problem.  We often merge so that we all learn.  Hope this helps you.

[Les Hurdle]

Moderator's EDIT

Les, this is the third posting or topic for your HVAC and such issues.  This one is now merged into the original one...which was also MERGED.  Forum rules do not not allow top posting or asking the same question in new topics.

END of EDIT.

 

I asked a question about the furnace some while ago.  In the main cabin it is very toasty but I see vents in the rear part of the coach incl bathroom.......... what is supposed to come out of there..so far nowt.

L

 

[BradHend]

Simply put, heat.  
On my rig the vent fed by a hose that goes under the dinette blows a lot of hot air, but I find all three floor vents don’t blow nearly as much air.  
Have yet to really determine if this is a static pressure issue, or the ductwork has developed a leak somewhere.
It will most likely be whatever is harder and more expensive to fix.  Lol. 

[Tom Cherry]

Les…read the manual.  Your rig is not one we commonly have here.  i DOUBT you have an INFLOOR heating system…under the tiles.  That was used on the upper ends, sometimes as an expensive option….like on the Sigs and Execs.

if you have “floor vent system”, the. That is coming from a furnace.  Gas or elexrric….I don’t have a clue.  If you have the word FURNACE in both Zone 1 & Zone 2 on the thermostat, then you have, most likely, TWO furnaces.

The section of heating and air conditioning has the instructions as well as how to  use and control along with an explanation.  

Try that….  Otherwise, a Safari Cheetah owner is gonna have to chime in.  We don’t have a copy of your manual and Monaco never published it online….

[96 EVO]

2 hours ago, Les Hurdle said:

I asked a question about the furnace some while ago.  In the main cabin it is very toasty but I see vents in the rear part of the coach incl bathroom.......... what is supposed to come out of there..so far nowt.

L

 

Should be able to see the gas furnace intake / outlets from outside your coach.

You either have 2, or just the one.

[Steve Maurer]

I have 2005 Cheetah, ducts run under kitchen cabinets, you might want to check if ducts are damaged or the branch circuit to the rear is disconnected. In my coach, there are some vent covers on the floor that are adjustable, you might want to check that. 
 

Steve
 

 

[Les Hurdle]

OK.  finally  got to the root of the problem.

The 5 button thermostat tells 'lies'.  When it shows zone 1 [on the left] it really means Zone 1 is on the right, the main cabin, zone 2 the opposite. When applying zone 1 re a/c the main cabin a/c is activated............. mine is non op.  Zone 2 works the back a/c and is ok.

Don't ask me why but zone 2 always came up as the area for the furnace, but the air came out in the main cabin.  It turns out I do have 2 furnaces, BUT the 5 button panel yet again 'lied'.  Re furnaces, Zone 1 is the bedroom, zone 2 the main cabin.  The opposite of the a/c...........  all is well 😉

[cbr046]

40 minutes ago, Les Hurdle said:

 furnaces, Zone 1 is the bedroom, zone 2 the main cabin.  The opposite of the a/c...........  all is well 😉

I would imagine there's a comm cable to the thermostat for each furnace.  Could they be transposed at the thermostat?

- bob