2006 Dynasty - Starter tests positive but won't crank in front nor back.

[sfmark2020]

Hello new to site and to this motorhome.  I am a diesel electric mechanic by trade and was handed this beast from another shop because they couldn't figure it out.  I have a 2006 Dynasty with brand new batteries (house and chassis). All 6 batteries are fully charged, cleaned, new cables, all wired correctly.  When I attempt to start I can't get the rig to crank, not in the front nor if I toggle the rear rockers. The rig will run if I leave the dash lights on, crawl under the rig to access the starter and use a remote starter to bypass the motorhome electrical.  It starts and idles just fine.  I know there are logic overrides that prevent a motor home from starting, say for example if the awning is out or if the unit is in drive etc... but am not familiar with the entire Check List for this model.  I was hoping someone could direct me to a list of items that I can can go check to make sure all the mundane items are covered.  There exists an item that is already broken that may or may not be the problem but with  RV's there are a lot of Red Hearings.  Mechanics tend to be lured off track quite easily.  Essentially I want to make sure it is not some boneheaded obvious thing before I tackle the ignition circuit board that is currently lit up like a Christmas tree.   

[vito.a]

It sounds like the start solenoid may be bad.  Possibly not getting the neutral signal from the transmission.  Is the air parking brake set solid all the way up?

Some additional suggestions: Have you tried the boost switch?  It is a rocker switch on the drivers left console that combines the two battery sets.  Many of these coaches require both battery sets to crank the original starter.  

Are the chassis batteries charging when plugged into shore power?   If not, check the Intellitec Big Boy solenoid in the rear electrical run bay to the right of the engine.   

There is a new gear reduction starter available for these engines.  It takes less current to crank over and also cranks the engine over much faster. 

Good luck! 

Edited June 1, 2023 by vito.a

[BradHend]

I’ll ask an obvious question, but sometimes it’s the obvious items that get overlooked.  
There should be two sets of rockers in your run bay, the one on the right, make sure it’s not in the middle position (off). This would disable starting in either end.  Perhaps that switch is bad as well.  
Good luck!

[Ivan K]

I have a small start solenoid in driver side rear run bay. I would start it from there. If that does works, the path down to starter is good. There is a lockout relay above it to check for function and incoming signal.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Ivan K

[Russ R]

Not sure if this will help, but see the attachedCopy of 1 A 2006 Monaco Dynasty wiring diagram.pdf

[sfmark2020]

Hi Vito, Thank you for the response.  I have located the starter solenoid board in the rear fuse/breaker compartment.  I am 99.9% sure the problem is centered there.  Most likely one of the signal wires is not behaving as it should, or as you had mentioned the relay may be at fault.  I went over all the schematics for this year's Dynasty in the Download section of this site but could not find a schematic on that rear starter solenoid board.  I did find a basic drawing of a solenoid but it is nothing like what I have. The drawing shows a large "bolted in place" solenoid rather than a soldered relay.  I have a super small relay.  I'll attach some photo's.  Perhaps if you have a link on that  solenoid board I could  do some testing?  The first photo where my finger is pointed to is where the schematic says a solonoid should be bolted.  Right obove (and slightly to the right is the relay board I was hoping to obtain some schematics on.

Hey Brad, thanks for your reply I have been caught on those "obvious" things in the past.  Doesn't hurt to bring up, but yes I checked the rocker position a bunch of times.

Hey Ivan, it won't start from the rear or the front - Thanks

Hey Russ, Thanks for the link.  Unfortunately I have that schematic, as you will notice where my finger is pointed (attached photo), instead of that starter solenoid, there exists a 12+ volt buss bar.  The schematic doesn't match what I have in the back box.  I emailed Monaco and they said there is nothing more they can offer. 

[waterskier_1]

I'll through this out since it is an easy check.  I have a 05 Exec, so think the chassis side should be similar.  I had a problem with the Front-Off-Rear switch.  I didn't make contact all the time, resulting in an Off condition no matter the actual position of the switch.  

  - Rick N

[jacwjames]

Another member had an intermittent problem with the front/rear auxiliary start switch on an earlier model year Dynasty,   Ended up being one of the relays in that circuit. 

Neutral switch

Park Brake

 

Does the Allison control have lights on it when you turn the key on?  Only time I had a NO Start was when the TCM went bad and had to be replaced.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by jacwjames

[bgfleck]

3 hours ago, sfmark2020 said:

Hi Vito, Thank you for the response.  I have located the starter solenoid board in the rear fuse/breaker compartment.  I am 99.9% sure the problem is centered there.  Most likely one of the signal wires is not behaving as it should, or as you had mentioned the relay may be at fault.  I went over all the schematics for this year's Dynasty in the Download section of this site but could not find a schematic on that rear starter solenoid board.  I did find a basic drawing of a solenoid but it is nothing like what I have. The drawing shows a large "bolted in place" solenoid rather than a soldered relay.  I have a super small relay.  I'll attach some photo's.  Perhaps if you have a link on that  solenoid board I could  do some testing?  The first photo where my finger is pointed to is where the schematic says a solonoid should be bolted.  Right obove (and slightly to the right is the relay board I was hoping to obtain some schematics on.

Hey Brad, thanks for your reply I have been caught on those "obvious" things in the past.  Doesn't hurt to bring up, but yes I checked the rocker position a bunch of times.

Hey Ivan, it won't start from the rear or the front - Thanks

Hey Russ, Thanks for the link.  Unfortunately I have that schematic, as you will notice where my finger is pointed (attached photo), instead of that starter solenoid, there exists a 12+ volt buss bar.  The schematic doesn't match what I have in the back box.  I emailed Monaco and they said there is nothing more they can offer. 

We had a no start on our 07 Sig. In the second picture above the Big Boy relay are two small  circuit breakers. One of those was bad. both sides showed voltage was good but when went to crank it didn't. It's been awhile and we have since sold the coach or I'd post a picture of the circuit breaker. We bypassed the breaker to test and it fired right up.

[MyronTruex]

There is some verbage on that schematic that refers to that relay board I would love a close up or at least to know what it is saying.

Finding the elusive relay that is driven by this board, or maybe not because those Omron relays can handle plenty of current, could be a real challengene.

I think you may be able to at least sort out if that board is working by getting some voltage measurements.

The rear switch that selects front or rear could be bad or the voltage getting to it. As suggested there are a couple of self resetting breakers just at the bottom of the board that may supply power to the board. 

I suspect the board works this way. It gets ignition switched power to (activate) the board. That is, makes it come alive. Then the (neutral safety relay) either makes or breaks the control path based on the transmission input. This neutral safety would be in effect whether starting from the rear or the front. So a (I'm not in neutral signal) would cut the starting path no matter what.

At this stage I would be very interested in what signal (voltage), is coming from that front/rear run switch. Since it won't start from the rear or the front then the signal from the rear start button is a mute point. That switch likely takes a voltage and from either the ignition input, or from a local power source depending on the position of the switch. So the output from the switch would be hot all the time when in the rear position, and hot in the front start condition IF the ignition key is on.

I don't want to further confuse anyone but it is possible the front/rear switch, could switch ground but that would take just a second to determine. 

At some point along those connections on the bottom you would likely see a 12 volt signal (or a ground), being toggled when you push the start button with the front/rear switch in the rear position. Of course the same applies using the front ignition switch. 

And back to basics, I would want to know what the voltages are on each end of those fuses, while pressing the start button. As previously mentioned the voltage was there for him and then died when under load. I suspect the board lights would go out or dim when pushing the start button if that is the issue but I'm not there with a voltmeter. A digital voltmeter can really fool you. A good/cheap 12 volt test light that has a bulb inside and not an led inside is a great tool to put a bit of a load on a circuit. 

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by myrontruex

[MyronTruex]

I would like to see what is hidden behind your hand. The starter solenoid may be there. I know the schematic is a bit misleading as to its location but worth looking at.

It is obvious someone has done some work in that area too.

[Bruce S]

This may be a dumb comment but when I use my rear start the ignition key has to be in the run position or you can toggle the rear start all day long and nothing will happen...lol

[sfmark2020]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for that suggestion, the ignition was on when I toggled to the rear to start no luck.   

Hey Myron, Hidden behind my hand and nothing up my sleeves, is a fuse rack.  I reached behind the entire box thinking maybe they bolted the solenoid to the other side but nothing is back there.  Also it is very tight back there.  I really think the diagram is just wrong and the they only use those dinky relays soldered to the circuit board above and slightly to the right of my hand.  

[sfmark2020]

Hi Rick,  Thanks for looking in to it.  I found a diagram that breaks down the starter circuit board (Attachment #1) but what I really hoping to get is the wiring schematics that lead into this circuit board, (position J1 "Header 3" / position 2 "Header 4"), otherwise the attached diagram isn't enough information.  Unfortunately the schematic Monaco emailed me does not match what I have on the RV.  I'll repost those 2 photos below.  You will notice Circuit board (R1) is the starter circuit board.  That schematic only list a 4 pin plug (J2).  Furthermore it lists a solenoid which this RV does not have.  Finally it does not list a 3 pin plug (J1).  Compare that to the photo, and you can see the difference.

Hi Myron I just read your larger post just now.  I an going to swing back to the job site next week.  I wanted a correct schematic for the board and the wiring leading into the board.  What I currently have, provided by Monaco,  is not an accurate schematic.  Hence me reaching out to this incredible group.  Hopefully someone will have the correct schematic.  I will circle back to the job site next week and continue and get back to all of you.  As for your request of a closeup picture of the "verbiage," above I attached a close up but I could not read any verbiage of a circuit board.  Perhaps I misunderstood your question?

[Guest Ray Davis]

Hi Mark,  this may be totally elementary but who knows we have all missed the simple things before.   You probably know the wiring nowadays smells like food to mice so they chew on them.  Have you noticed or looked around for signs of any critters?

[sfmark2020]

That's quite funny I just found a chewed up fuel line in one of my customers vans. No signs of critters sir. But thank you.

 

[Tom Cherry]

5 minutes ago, sfmark2020 said:

That's quite funny I just found a chewed up fuel line in one of my customers vans. No signs of critters sir. But thank you.

 

Pardon the diversion....

Rodent (Timothy Field Mouse) chewing can be costly....  We parked my wife's ATS on our second driveway that ends in a clearing in the woods where we used to store our boat and now our utility trailer.  This was during the driveway repaving project.  It stayed there for several days....  I drove it for a week or after the driveway was cured out....but one day....it was running rough...and I mean ROUGH.  Being an old Carburetor guy....I just used a little more throttle.  We were on the way to Church so I had her follow me and dropped it off at the dealer.  Total of 12 miles.  

Timothy had chewed a harness....and the tech showed me....it was NOT a squirrel as the critter could not get into that narrow crevice.  That eventually lead to a shorted sensor... MAF if I recall.  The MAF sensor was non functional so the injectors were pumping like crazy.  You had to keep the throttle opened....and I did run in a lower gear....to keep it running.  OPPS....that was the beginning of a very expensive issue.  They replaced the sensor and corrected the or fixed the wiring (had to pull some stuff out but not replace the harness).  Then several days later....the CHECK ENGINE light came back on.  The two Catalytic Converters were mounted on the exhaust manifold (V6).  They were fuel soaked....beyond belief.  Two NEW Cat Converters were needed.  Total bill was over $5K....  The dealer sort of worked on it and my extended warranty and GM assisted....DODGED A BULLETT.....but I DID find solace that perhaps Timothy might not have survived......READ ON....  Do NOT discount the amount of damage that a rodent can do.  I keep fresh mice/rat baits in all my bays and one in the galley when in storage....

OK.....as the PAST Director of Environmental......this is a bit long....but my mice incident DID remind me of a "Court Case of Consequence".  If you ever wondered about reading a Prop 65 Warning on a package, it is a requirement if you ship or sell products into California.  It alerts the consumer that there is a KNOW carcinogen (may not be harmful....like the warning NOT to remove and swallow battery electrolyte that is in many new car owner's manuals....

As the Director of Environmental for a major (once upon a time) tool company, I had to "clean up an oversight" and pay retribution to the plaintiff for failing to have the proper warnings on a package.  We were a major soldering iron and station company.  We KNEW to label our solder, if it contained lead....and the Prop 65 warning was OK.  BUT, a "well intentioned" Ex Para Legal made a career of walking around stores and such and checking labels. He determined that a sponge on a soldering station COULD, eventually, become contaminated with lead if the operator used lead solder or desoldered joints that contained such. I won't get into the particulars that my Corporate legal team and my own research turned up....but an individual can file a notice with the CA Environmental folks and the Attorney General alledgeing that a product is not properly labeled and if they rule in favor, then the whistleblower gets a percentage of the fine.

Google Prop 65.  Therefore all wire, unless the coloring pigmentation is certified as LEAD FREE, must have a CA Prop 65 warning if sold or shipped there...from the New England Journal of Medicine....  This was what the "attorneys" used as a teaching tool....

In December, 1991, a 46-year-old Ohio man was discovered to have lead intoxication. His blood lead level was 50 micrograms/dl, with symptoms of numbness of the fingers and palms, tinnitus, and possible cognitive impairment. Usual sources of adult lead intoxication could not be found. The mystery was solved when the man (a microwave technician at a television station) revealed that for 20 years he had habitually chewed on bits of plastic insulation that he stripped from the ends of electrical wires. The colored wire coatings were tested and found to contain 10 to 39 mg of lead per gram.

The REST of the story was that the station, as many companies do, require that if you strip wire on a job, you collect it in a container (since you might be in an office)....OR, for very small gauge wire, it was SUSPECTED, that he used his teeth as the stripper......YES....this did happen....

SO, if you use replacement wires or fuel lines and expect rodent infestation.....purchase the ones that have a Prop 65 warning and the mice will be punished....

[Guest Ray Davis]

22 hours ago, sfmark2020 said:

The rig will run if I leave the dash lights on, crawl under the rig to access the starter and use a remote starter to bypass the motorhome electrical.  It starts and idles just fine. 

 

22 hours ago, sfmark2020 said:

I have a 2006 Dynasty with brand new batteries (house and chassis)

Looking back over your original post I noticed the 2 statements above.  Do you know if the no-start problem was there before the new batteries or if it presented itself when new batts were installed?   So many times trouble is found where recent work was performed.

Leaving the dash lights on, is that in order to get it to try to start, or is it necessary to keep it running?   It's hard to see that being associated with replacing batteries but we are dealing with a MOHO.   Crazy dash light issues are often associated with ground problems.  Do the dash lights & gauges work correctly otherwise?              I may be way off base but I wonder if the ignition relay is somehow finding a path thru the dash lights.  What about the ignition switch,  does it seem ok?  It's a regular old GM switch, I think.

 

[jacwjames]

Was this the original problem with the coach, a no start situation.

OR  was it brought in for something else and at some point it didn't start.  If so what other work was done.

 

I had a problem with my coach that was self inflicted.  I wired in a different switch and accidentally put a ground wire on a hot lead.  The switch was lighted, which we seldom use since we don't drive at night, but the first time I tried to light the switches none of them would work.  Found a bad fuse, put a new on in and it blew.  Kept checking a bunch of things and was ready to give up when someone asked the question "What was the last thing you worked on >> adding the switch"  Checked the wiring which I screwed up and found the problem.  DUH!!!

13 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

 

Looking back over your original post I noticed the 2 statements above.  Do you know if the no-start problem was there before the new batteries or if it presented itself when new batts were installed?   So many times trouble is found where recent work was performed.

Leaving the dash lights on, is that in order to get it to try to start, or is it necessary to keep it running?   It's hard to see that being associated with replacing batteries but we are dealing with a MOHO.   Crazy dash light issues are often associated with ground problems.  Do the dash lights & gauges work correctly otherwise?              I may be way off base but I wonder if the ignition relay is somehow finding a path thru the dash lights.  What about the ignition switch,  does it seem ok?  It's a regular old GM switch, I think.

 

Ha Ha

Great Mimes think alike

[sfmark2020]

Hi Jim Hi Ray, I wish the batteries were wired up incorrectly and that was the problem. In my younger days I've visited  that rodeo.  The no start problem was there prior to the batteries being swapped. It's been stranded at my customer's previous shop for over 2 years. The temp probe on the battery rotted away and the solar panels just kept boiling the batteries as the motorhome sat.  The batteries are 100% hooked up correctly and I fabricated new cables because the old ones were so rotted. That's definitely not the issue. The dash lights being left on was for running the engine once I triggered the starter with the remote. As for electrical gremlins the dash lights are behaving but there is one accessory board that's acting wacky (up front). I've left it out of this post because right now I'm focused on getting wiring schematics for that ignition circuit board in the back. I suspect the problem wire that's not doing what it's supposed to do on that rear ignition circuit board is associated with the wacky board in the front but first thing is first I need those wiring schematics for that rear ignition board. Thanks again!!

[Guest Ray Davis]

1 hour ago, jacwjames said:

Mimes

Mimes,  I like it.

[MyronTruex]

I am interested in the wacky circuit board up front. Often fixing the "obvious" first resolves many other things. 

A per prior stuff. I was able to read the print on the schematic. 

You may be right in that there is not an intermediate relay driving the starter solenoid. Those Omron relays handle a lot of current. They are used on the load shedding board for my Air Conditioners. I have a sack full of them hoping to change them out but found my circuit board was smoked. This is NOT related to your issue. Just talking about the heavy duty relays.

If I understand correctly and forget you mentioned having to have the headlights on when you did a jump start. That leaves me to believe the headlight power may habe been feeding back enough to let things run. 

These monsters can get crazy symptoms when a simple fuse in a strange place is blown. Thus I am curious about the problem up front.

In my business for almost 40 years I would play a game with customers I called "20 questions". I would have the customer right there helping me diagnose some strange or intermittent issue. All the while asking them about the symptoms. Often asking the same question in a slightly different way. The customer would  then tell me about some unrelated issue or symptom, and there it was. The information I had to beat out of them. 

So never leave out any symptoms, even if you think they are unrelated. It's like witholding information from your doctor. Can't diagnose without all the facts and suspicions.

We could work backwards as the measurements I suggested taking and may only provide us with a better understanding of how things should work in the rear area. And that is fine. But if something is wonky up front it might be a quick fix. Please be careful sharing the word "Wonky", this is a highly sophisticated term to be used only by highly trained ticklenicions.

 

[Guest Ray Davis]

I would listen to Myron, he has fixed more crazy electrical problems than all of us put together.  Along with him are some very smart people and I've seen people get miffed thinking someone on here was trying to show them up.  Not saying that's the thinking here, but I just want to say we have only good guys & gals on here that live to help. 

BTW some schematics are as scarce as hens' teeth,  meaning you may never find them.

[waterskier_1]

I have more questions than answers.  First, are you troubleshooting a "Does Not Crank" issue, or a "Does Not Run" (meaning it cranked and maybe started to run, and then stopped) issue.  I read the post as Does Not Crank.  Therefore, we should not worry about keeping it running, just yet.  

I don't believe that you have posted any wiring diagrams that match what you actually have.  Even the Relay Wiring Diagram doesn't match - the Fuses in the diagram call for 25 Amp, but what you actually have calls for 20 Amp.  

The Start Solenoid Relay (seems redundant terminology, since a Solenoid is a type of Relay) is the Omicron Relay on that board.  It appears that this is the only starter solenoid or relay.  

I suspect you have already checked, but what are the state of the LEDs on that board?  When you turn the key to Ignition, the Yellow IGN RELAY Signal LED should light, indicating that the relay board is receiving a signal to energize the IGN RELAY.  If so, and the board and relay are working properly, the Green Relay LED should light indicating that the relay is indeed energized.  This all needs to happen before it will crank.  Next, if the Transmission is in Neutral, and all other Safety lockouts (if any) are good, the Relay board should get a voltage to the NEUT/SAFETY relay SIGNAL and that LED should light.  Then, that signal should energize the NEUT/SIGNAL Relay, and the RELAY LED should light.  If all the above happens, then the circuitry is set.  Next, when the key is turned to the START (Crank) Position, the Yellow LED under the START SOL RLY should light indicating the relay board has received the voltage from the Key switch.  Then the START SOL RLY should energize, lighting the Green RELAY LED and supplying voltage to the Starter.  If either Red LED is lit, that means the associated fuse is bad.

If I try to rationalize the wiring diagram with your specific board, I would guess that the 3 Conductor "Header 3" is the LED lights power source.  LEDs don't run directly off 12 Volts DC, they are lower voltage.  So, the Ignition source (12 VDC) comes in that header, and the MOSFET just the the right (Black and silver device with 3 leads soldered to the relay board) creates the correct voltage for LEDs, and the exits on one of the header pins, and the third connection (pin) is for ground.  This circuit is completely independent of the rest of the circuity on the relay board.  The 4 Conductor "Header 4" has the wiring for the previously described Ignition, neutral/safety and Start circuitry.  One wire, likely the heavy black wire on pin 4, is the wire to the Starter.  Another wire, likely on pin 3, is the signal from up front that says the Transmission is in neutral (and any other safety that might be required to be met before the starter can engage).  Pin 2 likely carries crank or start signal (voltage) coming from the Key Switch up front.  Lastly, the yellow wire on pin 1 is likely the ignition voltage from the Key Switch up front.  The two Switches shown in the wiring diagram are the Front-Off-Rear and the Start Switch located just to the right of the NEUT/SAFETY Relay (likely mounted to the Relay board itself - though I can't say for sure from the picture.  

I hope this analysis might help you in troubleshooting.  Just remember that both the IGN Relay and the NEUT/SAFETY relay need to be energized before the START SOL RLY can be energized.

  -Rick N.

[Bruce S]

I have a couple of drawings which may send you in the right direction though for a slightly older coach.

2003 Signature 12V schematic.pdf 2003 Signature Rear Run panel.pdf