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throgmartin
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I have never liked Winnebago or its corporate philosophy and operations. This statement reflects the ongoing theme with Winnie Corp.

If you go back and read some of the press releases when they bought Country Coach and look at their statements and then consider what they did with that brand you will see whats in store for Newmar.  I still believe they bought the brand only to absorb it into the Winnie line and in time will kill the Newmar names. It is the same thing Rev did when they bought the Monaco, Beaver and HR brands. We all know how that went.

We service and support Winnie owners and actually have one in our shop right now for repairs. But I will never support the Corporation.

They are a bunch of ruthless jerks to deal with. We signed up for their big International rally 2 years ago but then learned that all of our sales through our booth had to go through their on site rally store ( where they zapped all vendors for a 10 % cut ).  This included even our own manufactured products. I feel bad for the Newmar owners as the handwriting is on the wall. Look at what they did to Country Coach and then watch what Winnie does to the Newmar brand in the ensuing years.

Here is their latest press release:  https://rv-pro.com/news/winnebago-closing-oregon-service-center?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20200615 RVP ENEWS (1)&utm_content=&spMailingID=23400150&spUserID=NjE3MjYxMTUxOTYzS0&spJobID=1760816642&spReportId=MTc2MDgxNjY0MgS2

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Re: REV no longer is marketing or selling any Monaco Brand Coach.

I just built a Signature on the  Monaco website:
https://www.monacocoach.com/model-build-results?model=180&floorplans=497&colors=440&decor=275&wood=169&total=565%2C012&options[]=153&options[]=157&options[]=160&options[]=164&options[]=168&options[]=171&options[]=175

or are you implying this is some other Motorhome underneath?

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The Monaco Executive and Signature  were the best in class of Luxury coaches built from the ground up on the Roadmaster Chassis which for many years was considered the best MH chassis on the market.

REV introduced a Signature branded coach with no tag in 2019 and it was 38 feet long and the quality was questionable to say the  least. Rev had no Monaco brand Coaches on display at the RV Super Shows for 2020.

What they are Marketing now is nothing more than an American Coach  re-badged as a Signature and built on a Freightliner Chassis. REV no longer builds the Holiday Rambler, Beaver or any of the other Monaco brands that I am Aware of as they have pretty much killed off the Monaco Brand after Acquiring it from Navistar.

They are hoping that the new Signature will fool buyers into thinking they are purchasing a luxury class A Coach. They are far from getting close and REV Quality has always been suspect.

There are better built coaches on the market for the money, just do your research. You do not get a new Luxury High End Coach for $600K.

 

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Guest Tim503

I have a 1998 Windsor with wall slide and think it was and is a good coach. I don't see a lot of new features as it seems these years put it all together. I'm considering using this to refurbish / remodel / rebuild / reimagine a new coach. What is the issues for that? This video is why I like Monaco.

 

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On 6/16/2020 at 9:18 AM, David Pratt said:

The Monaco Executive and Signature  were the best in class of Luxury coaches built from the ground up on the Roadmaster Chassis which for many years was considered the best MH chassis on the market.

REV introduced a Signature branded coach with no tag in 2019 and it was 38 feet long and the quality was questionable to say the  least. Rev had no Monaco brand Coaches on display at the RV Super Shows for 2020.

What they are Marketing now is nothing more than an American Coach  re-badged as a Signature and built on a Freightliner Chassis. REV no longer builds the Holiday Rambler, Beaver or any of the other Monaco brands that I am Aware of as they have pretty much killed off the Monaco Brand after Acquiring it from Navistar.

They are hoping that the new Signature will fool buyers into thinking they are purchasing a luxury class A Coach. They are far from getting close and REV Quality has always been suspect.

There are better built coaches on the market for the money, just do your research. You do not get a new Luxury High End Coach for $600K.

 

Very true.  It's such a shame to see the Monaco line of quality coaches come to this end. 😪

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Two comments....based on only 12 years of Motor Homing....but I had both a Winnebago and my Camelot.  I also spent a lot of time with my friend, the GM of a HR dealership, and would go in for service or whatever and talked with his techs.  I also talked extensively with a tech that my buddy tried to hire, many times, from CW (of all places).  My friend's techs and the CW techs would "help each other out"....and I don't think to the extent that perhaps my friend was aware of .....  I'll drop that....

Winnebago had a much better manufacturing operation, from a system and control standpoint than Monaco did.  Winnebago (I chased parts and also had service work done at a NON-Winnie dealership) had components that were designed for specific MH's or RV's.  Tanks for example were standardized and you could get the PN and Winnie had them or had a source.  Tanks were a "commodity" item at Monaco.  The bean counters (One of the Colonel's favorite terms) RULED.  They would have Purchasing find an "alternative" and then accounting would demand that the tank (or component) was used.  They made MID-year running changes.  We all know the frustration of trying to find out "Who made that?" on our Monaco's and WHERE can I find a replacement.  It is my opinion, from a long career in manufacturing and manufacturing engineering that Winnebago was a REAL company.  Monaco was more seat of the pants.  

NOW....that is not to say that "seat of the pants and experience" are bad.  That transitions into the Monaco line.

As David points out, the Chrysler Roadmaster Chassis was one of the finest and it was refined over the years.  Towards the end, Monaco DID have better control over the chassis.  They tried to "hire them engineers".  One such example was the CAD and Finite Element analysis of the new "Whiz Kids" that converted all the blueprints to "AutoCad"  Then they began to play around and someone said...  OMG....we have a structural issue here.  Then the old timers purportedly chimed in....Yeah....we have seen that a time or two.  That resulted in the redesign of the rear frame and such on my Camelot.  I am NOT the chassis expert as others are.  BUT, my frame and the members behind the wheels was beefed up based on an AutoCad simulation or FEMA (Failure Effect Mode Analysis).  That was spinoff from some Ford folks coming on board as Ford had all their suppliers write Operator Instruction Sheets and Manufacturing Standards and FEMA's (on critical parts or assemblies or processes).  A LOT of ADMIN work....but when you went into that detail and really looked at it....there WERE some issues that we fixed and the overall quality and reliability improved drastically.  I know....I was the Engineering or Manufacturing Services Manager for a large Ford supplier.

SO....The Roadmaster Chassis was the crown jewel and by whatever evolution (experience, over design, field feedback, etc) it was unsurpassed.  BUT....REV killed it.  I know from talking to ex Monaco high level folks....REV decided to KILL the Chassis.  They then demoed out all the tooling and equipment.  They loaded it up in roll-off's.  They took ALL the WIP parts.  They even took out all the "stock" parts like bushings and bearings and such.  One or two companies tried to "Purchase" the replacement parts....not to build a chassis but as spare parts for Monaco owners.  MANY of the components were designed and manufactured specifically FOR Monaco and were proprietary.  Those drawing can NOT be reproduced nor can the components (if they still had the tooling) by the OEM Suppliers.  That is ONE WAY TO KILL A PRODUCT LINE.  

OK...call in the Auditors.  The REV internal guys and the CPA or Outside Auditors.  They went over the factory.  They had a list of every part or sub assembly.  They then used the Asset Records to identify the presses and the jigs and fixtures and anything that had been capitalized for the machinery for the Chassis.  THEN....all the Roll Off's were taken to a salvage yard and crushed.  That was videoed and recorded so that when REV took the big "Navistar" loss....the IRS would allow it.  

I have, if you figured this out....been on the manufacturing end and had to retire or get rid of assets....and that is how it is done.

As David said....the Roadmaster Chassis is GONE.  You can still by the "Badged" or the model names....but that is like buying the Corvette line from GM and then putting it on a Yugo (I also make parts for Yugo's.....).  

Thus....we, the erstwhile and diligent and passionate Monaco owners....are left to our devices to find the OEM items that we need or the salvage yards or to our own devices (like having a "Panel Shop" CNC a new driver's console panel....    I do NOT know how long Winnebago will supply or use the same controls that they have....but at least you stood a shot at finding one.  

If you have ever tried to chase down a driver's side window.....that is a hoot.  I got a letter of commendation from the some of Sherlock Holmes' descendents for my my sleuthing ability.

The parting shot.....or example of how BIG companies fail....

Have a friend that had a 2006 Imperial SE.  NICE MH.  He babied it.  He made some shrewd business deals.  He sold his company and decided to upgrade with the nice amount of cash he had.  I had told him to get M M Electronics to copy the CPU and the Multiplex Switch programs.  He understood the vulnerability of not having that.  Eventually, he got the bug.  He traded in his Imperial for a top end Newmar.  Over $750K.  Now, it was heavily discounted...but he got a pittance for his nice Imperial.  

Drove it about 10 times or so.  Everything inside quit working.  The dealer (local where he bought it) called the factory.  They say....we don't know....you are a dealer....FIX IT.  It seemed that he had a spike or maybe an improper installation....or maybe there was a glitch in the Multiplex program.  He lost his main CPU.  So, no lights, not switched items (visors, drop down TV, and such).  The "NEW" High Tech MH had some "Chassis" circuits....and we ALL KNOW (or should) about Monaco's foray in the Multiplexed Chassis.

Bottom line.  It died in November, 2019.  He was to caravan with us in ealry March.  He could not.  The dealer could not get support from the factory....and was at a loss.  All the Kings Men and all the Kings Horses could NOT put his Multiplex System back together again.  NOW...I have another friend with a Prevost conversion.  That is a 2001.  He has a CPU and all the lighting is multiplexed as well as a feces load of stuff.  He calls Prevost and they send out a tech (fly him in) with the parts that they need....they determine what failed from downloading a diagnostic and doing a remote scan.  In some cases....the dealer can install.  IF there is a major electrical failure OR the CPU needs updating or such....they just "Install one".  They STILL have all the programming codes and diagrams and schematics for the MH.  They can totally restore a fried CPU.  THAT is how it should be done....but you need to spend 7 figures to get that type of support....

My comments....my observations.  If the Camelot died today....I probably would not replace it as learning to speak some other language (Prevost, Foretravel, you name it) would be too complex and I would probably get a Mercedes Class C or just quir RV'ing.....

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1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Two comments....based on only 12 years of Motor Homing....but I had both a Winnebago and my Camelot.  I also spent a lot of time with my friend, the GM of a HR dealership, and would go in for service or whatever and talked with his techs.  I also talked extensively with a tech that my buddy tried to hire, many times, from CW (of all places).  My friend's techs and the CW techs would "help each other out"....and I don't think to the extent that perhaps my friend was aware of .....  I'll drop that....

Winnebago had a much better manufacturing operation, from a system and control standpoint than Monaco did.  Winnebago (I chased parts and also had service work done at a NON-Winnie dealership) had components that were designed for specific MH's or RV's.  Tanks for example were standardized and you could get the PN and Winnie had them or had a source.  Tanks were a "commodity" item at Monaco.  The bean counters (One of the Colonel's favorite terms) RULED.  They would have Purchasing find an "alternative" and then accounting would demand that the tank (or component) was used.  They made MID-year running changes.  We all know the frustration of trying to find out "Who made that?" on our Monaco's and WHERE can I find a replacement.  It is my opinion, from a long career in manufacturing and manufacturing engineering that Winnebago was a REAL company.  Monaco was more seat of the pants.  

NOW....that is not to say that "seat of the pants and experience" are bad.  That transitions into the Monaco line.

As David points out, the Chrysler Roadmaster Chassis was one of the finest and it was refined over the years.  Towards the end, Monaco DID have better control over the chassis.  They tried to "hire them engineers".  One such example was the CAD and Finite Element analysis of the new "Whiz Kids" that converted all the blueprints to "AutoCad"  Then they began to play around and someone said...  OMG....we have a structural issue here.  Then the old timers purportedly chimed in....Yeah....we have seen that a time or two.  That resulted in the redesign of the rear frame and such on my Camelot.  I am NOT the chassis expert as others are.  BUT, my frame and the members behind the wheels was beefed up based on an AutoCad simulation or FEMA (Failure Effect Mode Analysis).  That was spinoff from some Ford folks coming on board as Ford had all their suppliers write Operator Instruction Sheets and Manufacturing Standards and FEMA's (on critical parts or assemblies or processes).  A LOT of ADMIN work....but when you went into that detail and really looked at it....there WERE some issues that we fixed and the overall quality and reliability improved drastically.  I know....I was the Engineering or Manufacturing Services Manager for a large Ford supplier.

SO....The Roadmaster Chassis was the crown jewel and by whatever evolution (experience, over design, field feedback, etc) it was unsurpassed.  BUT....REV killed it.  I know from talking to ex Monaco high level folks....REV decided to KILL the Chassis.  They then demoed out all the tooling and equipment.  They loaded it up in roll-off's.  They took ALL the WIP parts.  They even took out all the "stock" parts like bushings and bearings and such.  One or two companies tried to "Purchase" the replacement parts....not to build a chassis but as spare parts for Monaco owners.  MANY of the components were designed and manufactured specifically FOR Monaco and were proprietary.  Those drawing can NOT be reproduced nor can the components (if they still had the tooling) by the OEM Suppliers.  That is ONE WAY TO KILL A PRODUCT LINE.  

OK...call in the Auditors.  The REV internal guys and the CPA or Outside Auditors.  They went over the factory.  They had a list of every part or sub assembly.  They then used the Asset Records to identify the presses and the jigs and fixtures and anything that had been capitalized for the machinery for the Chassis.  THEN....all the Roll Off's were taken to a salvage yard and crushed.  That was videoed and recorded so that when REV took the big "Navistar" loss....the IRS would allow it.  

I have, if you figured this out....been on the manufacturing end and had to retire or get rid of assets....and that is how it is done.

As David said....the Roadmaster Chassis is GONE.  You can still by the "Badged" or the model names....but that is like buying the Corvette line from GM and then putting it on a Yugo (I also make parts for Yugo's.....).  

Thus....we, the erstwhile and diligent and passionate Monaco owners....are left to our devices to find the OEM items that we need or the salvage yards or to our own devices (like having a "Panel Shop" CNC a new driver's console panel....    I do NOT know how long Winnebago will supply or use the same controls that they have....but at least you stood a shot at finding one.  

If you have ever tried to chase down a driver's side window.....that is a hoot.  I got a letter of commendation from the some of Sherlock Holmes' descendents for my my sleuthing ability.

The parting shot.....or example of how BIG companies fail....

Have a friend that had a 2006 Imperial SE.  NICE MH.  He babied it.  He made some shrewd business deals.  He sold his company and decided to upgrade with the nice amount of cash he had.  I had told him to get M M Electronics to copy the CPU and the Multiplex Switch programs.  He understood the vulnerability of not having that.  Eventually, he got the bug.  He traded in his Imperial for a top end Newmar.  Over $750K.  Now, it was heavily discounted...but he got a pittance for his nice Imperial.  

Drove it about 10 times or so.  Everything inside quit working.  The dealer (local where he bought it) called the factory.  They say....we don't know....you are a dealer....FIX IT.  It seemed that he had a spike or maybe an improper installation....or maybe there was a glitch in the Multiplex program.  He lost his main CPU.  So, no lights, not switched items (visors, drop down TV, and such).  The "NEW" High Tech MH had some "Chassis" circuits....and we ALL KNOW (or should) about Monaco's foray in the Multiplexed Chassis.

Bottom line.  It died in November, 2019.  He was to caravan with us in ealry March.  He could not.  The dealer could not get support from the factory....and was at a loss.  All the Kings Men and all the Kings Horses could NOT put his Multiplex System back together again.  NOW...I have another friend with a Prevost conversion.  That is a 2001.  He has a CPU and all the lighting is multiplexed as well as a feces load of stuff.  He calls Prevost and they send out a tech (fly him in) with the parts that they need....they determine what failed from downloading a diagnostic and doing a remote scan.  In some cases....the dealer can install.  IF there is a major electrical failure OR the CPU needs updating or such....they just "Install one".  They STILL have all the programming codes and diagrams and schematics for the MH.  They can totally restore a fried CPU.  THAT is how it should be done....but you need to spend 7 figures to get that type of support....

My comments....my observations.  If the Camelot died today....I probably would not replace it as learning to speak some other language (Prevost, Foretravel, you name it) would be too complex and I would probably get a Mercedes Class C or just quir RV'ing.....

This makes me very happy to own a pre-mpx 1993 Dynasty.  Pretty much anything that goes wrong with it I can fix, and the few systems that I can't, a Cummins/ Allison shop can. 

The mpx features may be nice when they work, but can be expensive and frustrating when they don't. 

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I have spent most of my working career in electronics and have designed some very complicated devices and written complex software to make them work. That said, I am not a fan of complexity but it is sometimes necessary to achieve a goal. It is certainly not necessary to turn lights on and off. When electronics is designed into a vehicle it should be on a large scale using standard components that are available from multiple sources. The interfaces should be based on an industry standard so that years down the road when that particular black box is no longer available, third party sources can build replacements. This will only happen when there is a large quantity of the black boxes still in use. A cost effective replacement will not be profitable in a small market and not likely to be built. That is the category that the motorhome falls into. The RV industry designs fancy control systems into high end units to dazzle and lure customers into laying down a million plus dollars on the table. By the time the customer with the deep pockets tires of his new fancy toy and trades it in, the company has moved on to a newer and fancier control form xyz because abc went out of busy or xyz is cheaper. The next customer for that used high end coach may find themselves up the creek without the proverbial paddle. If you are the guy with the deep pockets its no big deal. You curse and move on to your next adventure.  If you are the couple who has worked hard all their lives and saved up so they can live their dream that used luxury coach may just be their worst nightmare.

As Chris T points out Winnebago may be a ruthless company from the perspective of those in the RV business. But from where I sit as a customer I like many of the practices they have. They make almost all their components and stand behind their product. They have been in business many years and do all their manufacturing in the same place. They are not likely to go out of business or be bought out by another company. Just my 2 cents.

Another one of my pet peeves is fancy touch screens in automobiles. They are very distracting and you have to take your eyes off the road to make an adjustment or control something. If you have knobs or sliding controls to control a functions you learn where it is and don't even have to look for it. You reach down and give it a tweak. Try that on a touch screen with its drill down menus and pseudo sliding controls.

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2 hours ago, Bob Nodine said:

I have spent most of my working career in electronics and have designed some very complicated devices and written complex software to make them work. That said, I am not a fan of complexity but it is sometimes necessary to achieve a goal. It is certainly not necessary to turn lights on and off. When electronics is designed into a vehicle it should be on a large scale using standard components that are available from multiple sources. The interfaces should be based on an industry standard so that years down the road when that particular black box is no longer available, third party sources can build replacements. This will only happen when there is a large quantity of the black boxes still in use. A cost effective replacement will not be profitable in a small market and not likely to be built. That is the category that the motorhome falls into. The RV industry designs fancy control systems into high end units to dazzle and lure customers into laying down a million plus dollars on the table. By the time the customer with the deep pockets tires of his new fancy toy and trades it in, the company has moved on to a newer and fancier control form xyz because abc went out of busy or xyz is cheaper. The next customer for that used high end coach may find themselves up the creek without the proverbial paddle. If you are the guy with the deep pockets its no big deal. You curse and move on to your next adventure.  If you are the couple who has worked hard all their lives and saved up so they can live their dream that used luxury coach may just be their worst nightmare.

As Chris T points out Winnebago may be a ruthless company from the perspective of those in the RV business. But from where I sit as a customer I like many of the practices they have. They make almost all their components and stand behind their product. They have been in business many years and do all their manufacturing in the same place. They are not likely to go out of business or be bought out by another company. Just my 2 cents.

Another one of my pet peeves is fancy touch screens in automobiles. They are very distracting and you have to take your eyes off the road to make an adjustment or control something. If you have knobs or sliding controls to control a functions you learn where it is and don't even have to look for it. You reach down and give it a tweak. Try that on a touch screen with its drill down menus and pseudo sliding controls.

No argument here.  We chose the Winnebago for the first MH due to reputation and also just "looking" at the fit and finish and such.  Then, after 2 1/2 years of ownership and 12K, found out that simple and complex things (parts) could be bought.  I was amazed at the dealer's microfiche or maybe computer breakdown of all the parts in my particular MH, the top end gasser....an Adventurer.  No complaints....I just wanted a DP and Monaco (HR) was what my dealer friend, who got us back in to RV'ing sold and we knew that we could get it serviced by his guys.

The manufacturing model, as you point out and I concur, is good.  Now....folks that run the place may have their issues....but from being able to get a replacement part or such....they are way above Monaco.  

NOW....the chassis and such....that is a different ball game.  The W-22 Workhorse chassis was pretty good.  BUT, since WH built the chassis and the dash and such.....that was a POS.  I had mine replaced under a factory recall.  There were minor issues....but drove me crazy....with the "circuits".  Drive down a bumpy interstate.  If you drove 70, then occassionly, the BRAKE LIGHT and idiot buzzer went off.  FINALLY figured it out.  The Parking Brake switch was defective.  When you hit a bump, sometimes the parking brake switch would close (the switch CLOSES on being engaged) and then the MH THOUGHT that you have PUT ON THE BRAKE.  Hit another bump a few miles later.....off it went.  I traded it like that and put a note in the owner's manual.  SURE ENOUGH....got a call from the dealer about 3 weeks later......WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO?  My answer....call Workhorse.  The fix may be replacement of the Parking Break Switch...  FINALLY figured it out that when the Brake Light went ON....the DRL's  little idiot light went OFF.  So, again....a false or "closed" circuit was telling the driver that the brake was on....and that would also kill the DRL circuit.  

As to the Camelot.  No regrets.  Lots of opportunities, as we all know, to exercise our brains and use our "innate trouble shooting" ability or also learn to use the resources of the INTERNET to find an answer.

TOTALLY agree with you on the complexity.  Case in point.  I have 3 GM cars...

2014 Caddy ATS with the Caddy CUE audio and such).  An iPod works great.  It interfaces and you can do all sorts of sorts and song selections and if you build large Play Lists (I have over 150 Play Lists), then you can customize your music.  I have over 3200 songs on a 16 gb Nano Ver 6 iPod.  I own 5 Nano's....one is a Version 7.  They all work in the Caddy....nary a blip.

OK....bought a 2014 Yukon....similar probably to your radio.  There is a "USB" interface.  The iPod worked great.  Figured out that it did not have the best USB port (connector) in the console.  Dealer replaced it.  I put a plastic shield over it to keep from bumping it and "sort of bent" the male USB and that worked great.

Eventually, APPLE got smart....or they just kept messing and upgrading....they had NO clue as to the interface issues.  I had a few glitches....you could reset the iPod and all was cool.

2016 Vette.  Head and shoulders as far a technology from the 2014 ATS.  BUT, the iPod would act up.  Finally disconnected the APPLE PLAY and also the BlueTooth (disabled).  OK...that fixed it.  THEN Apple kept updating the OS.  Finally, went back to a 2016 OS and have NEVER updated my iTunes.  

GM says....and I believe them.....an APPLE issue.  GM had a more sophisticated interface with the 2016 Vette with all sorts of Pandora and SMS and Apple Play and such icons.  

NOW.....it is debatable...but perserverence prevails.....I figured out HOW to just "Hook Up" the iPod to the audio input.  I run the iPod from the iPod.  I let the play list run....in doing that....I figured out how to stream my XM/Siris.  I have LIFETIME contracts on three radios.  I then killed the XM on the Vette (not lifetime).  I stream it...

As to the Multiplex.  It is nice.  I actually saw a low voltage (not multiplexed) Home Switching system in the mid 70's.  By maintenance supervisor was a contract electrician before we hired him.  in Southern Pines....there is the "Firestone" Castle.  it literally IS...  The architect, in the mid 60's did low voltage switching of ALL major or maybe ALL circuits.  So...you can run wires all over the place and then turn on (or add switches) to control just about everything.  That has 24 VAC (doorbell transformer) lines....and relays....  UNBELIEVABLE...

Today....they accomplish the same....via Multiplexing.  My Camelot is a hybrid.  My lights are multiplexed as is the Pump....  SO, I don't have a CPU....

TOTALLY agree with your statement.  I can do more mess (like tune the sound of my exhaust "NOTE") on my Vette.  BUT, it does not have auto dimming headlights (like the ATS) nor rain sensitive wipers.  I LOVE those features.....they work without me doing anything or taking my hands off the wheel....

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