2005 Windsor. Adding more batteries to inverter compartment; getting rid of old House batteries.

[OffGridLC]

I am going to remove my dying house batteries and replace them with 8 big AGM batteries that I already own, so that I can increase my stored energy considerably. Yes I know lithium is better but I already own the AGM batteries and with this setup I don't have to replace the onboard inverter as well. 

Looking for advice and or an electrical diagram of the battery system so I make sure to hook up the batteries correctly to the inverter and the rest of the house battery systems. Currently its physically difficult to see where everything is going behind the house battery box. It looks as if the + battery terminal goes back directly to the inverter, while the - battery terminal goes back to a - battery stud inside the main switch compartment that also houses the Chassis battery cutoff switch etc. 

Thanks in advance for any diagrams or advice! 

[CAT Stephen]

@OffGridLC,

 

Best practices for your use case is:

• Keep the jumpers joining batteries at equal length
  • Use the same wire gage for jumpers as your current feed cables
• Insure that your inverter is protected by a fuse of appropriate size for your inverter
• Add a master cutoff switch on the positive side of the circuit if you don't already have one
• Add a shunt between the house battery bank negative and your coach for obtaining and tracking the exact discharge of you new house bank.  I recommend this unit if your inverter is 3KVA or less output:
  •   https://www.amazon.com/Victron-SmartShunt-500AMP-Bluetooth-Battery/dp/B0856PHNLX/ref=pd_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0_title?pd_rd_w=cAOeG&content-id=amzn1.sym.bb21fc54-1dd8-448e-92bb-2ddce187f4ac%3Aamzn1.symc.40e6a10e-cbc4-4fa5-81e3-4435ff64d03b&pf_rd_p=bb21fc54-1dd8-448e-92bb-2ddce187f4ac&pf_rd_r=M8YGETMYE08DHRA4TPXS&pd_rd_wg=TLLw4&pd_rd_r=ba6a07d6-ed9f-44a6-8255-e62df1b19e3e&pd_rd_i=B0856PHNLX&th=1
    • This shunt uses bluetooth providing wireless monitoring from any bluetooth enabled android, iPhone, or iPad.

Edited January 7 by CAT Stephen

[Benjamin]

Basically you want each battery to see the exact same voltage while charging, and discharging, so they are equally yoked, that is, they all work equally hard and are charged back equally.  Parallel batteries are vulnerable to poor balancing degrading the overall pack just like series battery strings. 

That means each battery needs the same cable size and length in total.  So, bus bars with identical cables, or an equal length of cable for each battery, so each battery has 3' of cable, one could have 6" - and 30" +, and another 6" + and 30" -, and another 18" each.  Instead of bus bars, it could mean a daisy chain that takes the positive off one end, and the negative off the other end.  That allows smaller cables as the number of batteries gets lower (so lower amps), as long as each battery sees the same length of each size cable. 

Obviously I can't draw out all the possible options that would be equal, and there are better examples online than I can draw. 

The only other question, is this 8x 6V or 12V?

[OffGridLC]

Thank you for the reply,

I've got the battery pack handled as far as multiple parallel connections for the 8 12V batteries, I am just a little confused about all the connections near the switches, solenoids etc, as it's hard to tell where all the 2/0 ga wire goes from the house batteries. The main wires dissapear under the frame and then are hooked to posts, and I can only see where a few of them are going. The trouble I'm having in research is that I can't find a wiring diagram. I suppose that I can just disconnect the main wires and do a continuity test if I need to, but was hoping to accomplish my swap in a day, and it will take a while to track every cable down under the frame. 

[Benjamin]

I guess I'm not sure why you have to trace all those wires if you have existing batteries hooked up and you're just replacing them with a different layout of AGM?

A picture of the existing battery connections, and a drawing of the proposed layout might make the situation more clear. 

[OffGridLC]

old batteries are 4x 170AH 6V flooded lead acid batteries located in the rear of the coach with the chassis batteries.

New batteries are 8x 230 AH AGM 12V batteries located in the cargo compartment (Mid Coach) near the factory placed inverter. I was hoping someone had a similar coach and install and or the electrical schematic for me to look at. 

[Tom Cherry]

Your owner's manual should have all the prints.  These drawings are for a 2006 Windsor.  But if you look at the individual the drawings, the bulk of them say "2005". Monaco "rebadged" the Windsor sometime after 2002, can't exactly recall, but they combined it with the Camelot and early Imperials.  Sort of weird...but the evolution of models has always been more digging up ancient ruins.

The first or second page shows the "Physical Layout" of the two battery boxes.  Your batteries are about 25% smaller than the OEM ones.  They were 225/220 Amp Hour.

There is nothing "magical" about the layout or the electrical system of your MH compared to most Monaco's.  

If you figure out where else to locate the batteries, you are going to need a Hydraulic Crimper and some cables and terminals from Amazon.  You are also going to need "Shrink Wrap" insulation.  Buy the one that says "Heat Shrink Adhesive". That type actually activates an adhesive coating and physically/chemically bonds the shrink wrap to the terminals and cable jacket.

For the size of the job you are attempting, buying the crimper will be much cheaper than going to the local welding shop supplier and having them make up custom cables. NAPA usually has some "Custom Cable" services, but the quality and size of the wires and the connectors varies. You need to have the correct terminal "hole" diameter to match up with the batteries.

One individual did this in a 2006 Dynasty. He moved TWO of the House to the Chassis box.  He used the "iron cross" arrangement for the House up there.  Thus, he ended up with 6 House batteries.  Some folks have made battery trays or used an adjacent bay. be aware that doing that puts the MH at risk. The battery box bay or area is totally OPEN (on the bottom) thus you get full venting or an outlet for fumes and such.  If you put the AGM's in an enclosed bay, take out some "insurance" as the potential for "Hydrogen Buildup" or an explosive atmosphere is greatly increased...or is actually a "personal injury" issue. Having been a gearhead all my life and an Engineer with two years of EE before I switched to another Engineering field...and having been responsible for Maintenance departments in two large plants with over 100 Maintenance "techs" and doing our own lift truck work....and over 15 years here, 13 of which as a Moderator....  I would PERSONALLY not install ANY battery in an enclosed area.  If I was forced two, there would be a fresh air vent (cut a hole UNDER the bay....as I can do as I have Sliding Trays...and then put in an exhaust fan through the ceiling.

A crimper and the cabling and supplies that you will need will probably run around $150.  But, the cost of getting the same cables fabricated will be higher.  The concept is great....but the execution might not be cost effective.

The other issue....what is the SOC of your AGM's.  You are aware, I hope, that you cannot carry them to a "shop" and have them load tested.  The only way to load test or determine the SOC of a Deep Cycle Battery is to actually drain them down....to 50%.....and recharge them.  Usually this is done three times.  Also, unless the AGM's were "run down" at least every few months....they need "exercising".

Here is a paper that is in our files that discusses the proper care and maintenance of deep cycle batteries for our MH's.  We really had NO "how to" on batteries and I compiled this and had several of our "Electrical Guru's" review it.  Suggest you read it...  If your AGM's are not at least capable of a 90% SOC, after exercising, then again, spending the $$ to retrofit them may not be cost effective.

Good Luck.

 

1201024594_2006WindsorCamelotandScepterwiringdiagrams (1).pdf

[cbr046]

AGM's don't vent?  But why even risk it.  I think this bears repeating  . . . .

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

 The battery box bay or area is totally OPEN (on the bottom) thus you get full venting or an outlet for fumes and such.  If you put the AGM's in an enclosed bay, take out some "insurance" as the potential for "Hydrogen Buildup" or an explosive atmosphere is greatly increased...or is actually a "personal injury" issue

- bob

[dl_racing427]

8 minutes ago, cbr046 said:

AGM's don't vent?  But why even risk it.  I think this bears repeating  . . . .

- bob

AGM batteries will vent if they ever get overcharged, or have an internal failure.
You definitely want them in an open compartment.

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

AGM batteries will vent if they ever get overcharged, or have an internal failure.
You definitely want them in an open compartment.

YES, there is NO PERFECT SEAL.  Don't believe me...  Ask the folks at any car dealership if they have ever had an "EXPLODING AGM".  It does happen...not as frequently as flooded or supposedly sealed (which will also VENT). My new OEM C7 Corvette battery has TWO orifices or vents...one on each side. The battery comes with a PLUG.  You close one port and use the 90 deg elbow and plastic tubing (supplied) in the other orifice to vent the gas out of the battery compartment down and out of the interior. The battery is under the carpet in the right rear area of the hatchback/convertible.

Next up....FWIW. Speaking of OVERCHARGING... it is a COMMON MYTH that one can SAFELY EQUALIZE an AGM to "restore it"  NOPE..  that boils out the Electrolyte (where do it GO....it is VENTED....so much for being SEALED).  Once they have been Equalized....the party's over....they will not even come close to a 90% SOC..

Trojan says this....in their literature...and I asked....twice or thrice as I have called them every year or so and wanted to clarify something before I posted it.

YES, one can try ONE last ditch effort and Equalize them.  BUT, if you want to get the Higher Cost and No Fuss-No Mess advantages of an AGM....Never Ever Equalize.