Frank C. Brants

3 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

Isn't this the info you need?

That MIGHT help - it's an Allison HD4560, not the HD4060, but it Might give Allison the info they need to Find the correct HD4060, thank you!!

I might even buy this one, as I do need all of the mating parts, AND a Core.

Thank Ivan!!

Franko

Update - I've called Allison several times & followed their suggestions to call (several of) my local Allison distributers, but I have YET to find out which variant of the Allison HD4060 transmission was typically mated to the Cummins N14, so if you HAVE a Monaco Motorhome with a Cummins N14 mated to an Allison HD4060 transmission, PLEASE send me a PM with the serial number.  With That serial number, I Can get all of the parts I need to get this beastie back on the road again.

Thank you!!
Franko

5 hours ago, jacwjames said:

  https://rvparts.visonerv.com/

Have you considered just putting in a paired engine & transmission.

Thanks Jim - yes, we were very fortunate to not get crushed by the motorhome OR the building.

I have checked with VisioneRV & they do have one HD4060 listed on their site that was pulled from a 1996 Blue Bird, which typically had a Detroit Diesel engine , but I need to find a serial number of a HD4060 that was mated to a Cummins N14.  There are so many variants of this transmission, so I would prefer to find an exact match, if possible.

I will give them a call to see if they have anything closer to what I'm looking for, thank you.

With the correct serial number, the folks at https://www.transaxle.com/ can sell me the exact (remanufactured back to factory new specs) transmission & hopefully most of the supporting hardware required.

My engine is relatively ok, possibly a dropped valve & a scored liner, but that's an easy fix.

As for cribbing - I was Ok with 4 by 4 wooden cribbing, and the accident was caused by this loose nut behind the keyboard lifting the axle up while the key was on & the air system fully charged, but this steel tubing we're using for cribbing now is just rock solid, as it's completely uniform.  That said, we're still building a "work stand" before we get back under that beast & start tugging & pulling...

Thank you!!

31 minutes ago, just for fun said:

I'm not the definitive Allison guy, I have to ask why the 4060 versus the 4000 or even 3000. I've never seem a 3000 come apart In vehicles with multi pto ,tank trucks hauling way more weight than either of our coaches. The worst I've seen is lockup clutch burning and the usual suspects and even that is when they are in the 400k miles range. Darn tough transmissions.

My reason for looking for a HD4060 Vs. a 4000 is the fact that any time I found a motorhome of this vintage...

(I've been looking for this beastie for 10 years, so I've read a LOT of MH specs on RVTrader)

...with a Cummins N14, it was mated to a HD4060.  I believe the N14 develops more torque than the 4000 is rated for.  I've seen later versions of larger engines mated to the 4000, but by then, the engine management computers were sophisticated enough to limit engine torque to prevent overloading the transmission. 

Trust me, it still gives me shivers, watching the replay in my head of that motorhome falling over, knowing I had been under it all day long.  It was a tough lesson to learn & I'm doing everything I possibly can going forward to minimize the risk.

Wait until you see our "permanent" (used when we're working under the motorhome) jack stands - 1/4" wall, 4 by 4 square steel tubing with 80,000 PSI rating.  That helps me sleep a little better at night.  I would love to have a set of column lifts, but at $45k to $80k, they're way outside of my budget for this project.

3 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

Wow, I feel for you. Pretty nightmarish. Wouldn't it be easier to cut the rear 'bumper' and pull it out now? Did you need it that high for an inframe if that's what you were going to do? Either way, some project. Stay safe!

We thought about going that route, but I still (even after dropping the d*** thing...) feel that raising it up & dropping the engine & trans is the better route - especially since I may be upgrading the pistons to Speed of Air pistons (Google them if you're not familiar - huge fuel economy boost & significant emissions reduction) at a later date & I wanted to be able to pull the engine at will.  The gentleman helping me is an experienced welder, so we're building "permanent" jack stands out of 1/4" wall, 4" BY 4" square tubing - the motorhome will be on the (fully braced, supported in all directions, zero chance of falling) permanent jack stands before we start working on it.

BTW, it's worth noting that the images at the TOP were taken AFTER it was dropped, then lifted back up.  That's where we are now. 
The second set of images (with the wooden cribbing) were taken before & immediately after it dropped. 

As mentioned before, one jack stand got hung under the front right wheel.  It presented a difficult problem, as we had to raise the front axle up enough the remove the jack stand, but we didn't have a level (jackable) surface to work with.

This company saved our bacon:

https://rentaltoolsonline.com/rental-tools-online-pneumatic-and-hydraulic-lifting-s-251/heavy-lift-air-bags-s-204.htm

The airbags pushed the motorhome up & away from the jack stand, allowing us to remove it when it was released, then gently lower the (beleaguered & abused) motorhome back onto level ground.

Ok, warning to the squeamish - images of elder (motorhome) abuse follow... it's still hard for me to look at...

The jack stand under the front axle, passenger side, got hung & this motorhome stayed like that for two weeks waiting for the correct equipment (lifting air bags) to arrive.  Amazingly enough, we have found zero evidence of any damage to the frame.  This model does NOT have slides, so that could have made a difference.

5 hours ago, just for fun said:

I hope it helps. You said the case had a crack in it. Did an internal part cause the crack or was there an impact on the exterior from the drive shaft breaking or other?

Thanks Dave, this should put things in perspective.

I'm in the process of rebuilding the N14 in this beastie (it had a rod knock & pulling the pan revealed vertical scoring in cylinder #1) & we had a mishap while raising it up on jack stands - we had it up at the height we wanted it & I decided I wanted another layer of safety to fall back on, just in case something broke - the jack stands were mounted under the forward (drive axle) set of vertical trailing arm / drag link supports visible between the drive & tag axles, so the wheels were dangling in the air.  The frame sits directly on top of (and is secured to) this vertical support beam, so it's very sturdy. 

I decided to raise the drive axle up & put cribbing underneath it, to give it a place to land if something broke.  We had raised the motorhome up on the air suspension earlier in the day, so I was providing air into the emergency supply port in the front & the air system was fully charged @ 120 PSI.  I forgot that I had left the key on (to deflate the air bags), so when I raised the rear axle up to put cribbing under the wheels, the ride height valves started to inflate the air bags.  I didn't notice it until the bottle jack (placed with the intention of JUST raising the dangling axle) got driven into the wooden cribbing.  My first thought was to turn the key off, which I did, but it became unstable & fell off the jacks.  When it fell, some of the cribbing crushed the CEEMAT oil pan.  I later found a large crack, which I though was the transmission case, but I've since determined was actually the bell housing.

So, considering the stock transmission is an unserviceable rebuilt CEEMAT (model # & serial number unknown, see the BLANK data plate installed by https://www.transgearllc.com/) with a crushed oil pan (we've confirmed it IS an oil pan & not a valve body) & cracked bell housing, I'm going to try to repair the damage, but I will definitely try to swap the transmission with a HD4060, if I can find the right one.

The one thing I do have going for me is this - this motorhome is stored in a facility that used to be an RV repair facility, so I have plenty of room to work, I have power, a working head, a way to lock everything up, and all of the time I need.

Photos were taken after it dropped & we raised it back up again - we switched from wooden cribbing to 1/4" wall 4" by 4" square steel tubing.  I'll post a better photo of the bell housing when we drop the engine & transmission.

12 hours ago, just for fun said:

Hi there, I found this. It's not the 4060 and the Allison site will help to check the gear ratios for the HD4560p for comparison to the 4060. The PTO on top can be removed and covered with a factory plate. The add doesn't mention the pad or controller for the conversion which you would need even for the 4060. Shot in the dark but thats the best I can do with a belly full of Turkey half asleep. Happy Thanksgiving btw

Opps, I did say half asleep. "1995 Allison N14 (Stock # P-879)" copy and paste this

Ok, I believe I found the listing you're referring to:

https://truckpartsinventory.com/part-details/82461698/used-1995-allison-hd4560p-transmissio-ssy-for-sale

Thank you, that's a start.

On 11/16/2023 at 1:31 PM, vito.a said:

Wow, I sure hope you get it fixed.  I hear good things about the Eaton CEEMAT transmission.  Nine gears would be nice.

Thanks, but my goal is to replace it with an Allison HD4060, IF I can find a valid serial number, which will allow the nice folks over at https://www.transaxle.com/ to find the correct model of the HD4060 that Roadmaster used with the Cummins N14 engine.

This is going to be a bit of an odd request.

I have a 1998 Monaco Signature, no slides, with a Cummins N14 & an Eaton CEEMAT 9 speed transmission with a cracked case.  The Eaton CEEMAT is no longer being serviced by the one company I found that works on them.

So, my best option is to purchase a Reman Allison HD4060 & all of the kit that goes with it.  In order to find the right model, I need a serial number from a comparable unit.

So, if you have a comparable setup, may I borrow your serial number to give to the nice folks over at https://www.transaxle.com/ so they can find me a new transmission?

Thank you!!
Franko
 

2 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

ODDS ARE....one of these will work.  Start looking at the FRB and RRB and see if the prints are the same....Also pull an individual print....look at the title block...you might find that the USAGE included the Sig as well.

Thanks Tom, I will give that a try!

Thank you!!

Franko

1 minute ago, Ivan K said:

That will be some exciting story to follow. Looking forward to pictures. Isn't it something that could be done inframe, granted not as comfortably? Are you going to cut the rear cap to get it out or is there a provision to back it out on yours? Good luck!

I'm about 99% certain that I'm going to install Speed of Air pistons (https://www.speedofair.com/), which will make this old N14 run a LOT cleaner, so I decided to drop the engine & transmission onto a 6,000 pound capacity scissor lift designed for cars.  I'm hoping I can drop it straight down - there is a cross member for the trailer hitch in the way, but we will unbolt it after we get the engine supported on the scissor lift.

I bought an itty-bitty, teeny-tiny little engine stand - I sure hope it can hold my engine up...

https://www.uniquetruck.com/product/14193/kiene-mobile-diesel-engine-rebuild-stand-5000-lb-capacity

If all goes well, we will repair the one cylinder that's damaged, put the engine on a dyno & collect all the stats & exhaust gas info, rebuild with the new Speed of Air pistons, then run the dyno test again to get good data on the performance of the Speed of Air pistons.

Franko

I'm just now resuming work on this project... I pulled the oil pan (after collecting oil samples) & didn't find any surprises in the pan & zero glitter, but I can clearly see vertical scoring on cylinder #1's liner.  I'm following the Cummins Service Manual's guidance to pull the heads:

• Drain the cooling system. Refer to Procedure 008-018 in Section 8.
• Remove the charge-air cooler connections or tube. Refer to Procedure 010-027 in Section 10.
• Remove the crankcase breather (external). Refer to Procedure 003-001 in Section 3.
• Remove the rocker lever covers. Refer to Procedure 003-011 in Section 3.
• Remove the air intake manifold assembly. Refer to Procedure 010-023 in Section 10.
• Remove the turbocharger. Refer to Procedure 010-033 in Section 10.
• Remove the exhaust manifold. Refer to Procedure 011-007 in Section 11.
• Remove the injector wiring harness connectors.
• Remove the engine brake if equipped. Refer to Procedure 020-024 in Section 20.
• Remove the rocker lever assemblies. Refer to Procedure 003-009 in Section 3.
• Remove the push rods. Refer to Procedure 004-014 in Section 4.
• Remove the valve crossheads. Refer to Procedure 002-001 in Section 2.
• Remove the fuel supply and fuel drain lines. Refer to Procedure 006-012 in Section 6.
• Disconnect the injector wiring at the pass through connector.
• Remove the injector. Refer to Procedure 006-026 in Section 6.
• Remove the rocker lever housing. Refer to Procedure 003-013 in Section 3.

It could be worse... I could be doing this without the aid of a service manual...

I bit the bullet & purchased a HD (i.e., Designed to handle THESE engines) engine stand (my 8.3 needs a little TLC, so what the hey...) + a 6,000 pound auto lift to lower the engine / trans onto.

I'm buying a lot of tools, but doing the work myself with the help of a paid assistant.

Will post updates as the work progresses.

Franko

Hello Fellow Monacoers!!

I have searched through the (invaluable!!) Downloads section, https://www.monacoers.org/files/category/24-wiring-diagrams/, and I've searched through this (Electrical Systems) forum for "1998 and schematic", but so far, no luck finding the full schematics (normally included in the last pages of your owner's manual) for a 1998 all electric Signature.

Does anybody have any leads on a "known '98 Signature owner", or a set of schematics?

I'm not battling any particular problem at the moment (still working on the engine rebuild), but I would love to have a set for future reference.

It goes without saying that if I DO find a set, I will upload them to the "Downloads" section.

TIA (Thanks in Advance 🙂

Franko

Is it safe to lift a MH onto jack stands by placing a hydraulic jack under the center of the differential, then lowering it onto jack stands placed below the air bag connection points?

Thanks!!
Franko

It's a pretty serious knock... I'm working with an experienced mechanic (will share his info if he gives me permission) to troubleshoot.  We're about 95% certain it's in the overhead - possibly a broken injector spring.

1. Cold, first crank, no air pressure in tanks:
   1. https://share.icloud.com/photos/064RZEQmBd0dJoE0i_Hh21chw
2. Cold crank + cold start:
   1. https://share.icloud.com/photos/024ELf-0ofDKakHa34i0IFXMA
3. Hot crank, air tanks full & compressor unloaded:
   1. https://share.icloud.com/photos/0923hGoNPzfZAI9hoiYd2fXNw
4. Hot crank, chasing the knock:
   1. https://share.icloud.com/photos/0c5lxQj6QGkTV0-7o0gWI3zXg

On 2/14/2023 at 7:53 AM, Jdw12345 said:

Was the previous owner willing/able to share any info on the engine condition? 

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but he told me 6 polar opposite stories on a single topic, every one of which was mutually exclusive (it could be one or the other, but not both), so I don't believe anything he told me in the past, nor would I believe anything he said going forward.

4 hours ago, vito.a said:

Wow, that's a great find.  How many miles are on your N14?

~120,000 - it's actually in great shape, but with some significant (think Mr. Magoo with pliers...) problems.  It will take some sorting...

4 hours ago, vito.a said:

Wow, that's a great find.  How many miles are on your N14?

It wouldn't be that difficult to remove the oil pan and roll new rod bearings in.   You could also check the main bearings but they are probably fine. 

But removing the engine is a tough job in these motor homes and will be expensive.  

I'd start by backing it up onto some homebuilt ramps made from stacked 2"x10" boards.  Drain the oil.  Remove the oil pan and then start checking and changing rod bearings.  

You may have to remove the trailer hitch and starter for access.  

Best of luck!

Thanks Vito, I will definitely do that - the previous owner had (and I kept) a great storage location that was converted From an old workshop with cement floors, air & 50 amp service everywhere, so 'up on the jack stands she goes...'

I will definitely check the rod caps first, after taking an oil sample & cutting the oil filters open.

It's a bit more work than I anticipated, but I signed up for a "project" & the Sig delivered 😉

3 hours ago, CAT Stephen said:

Hello Frank,

Before you consider a rebuild, power on the  ECM, then crank the engine to determine if the ECM is throwing a code. The most common issue with the N14 is that can cause the noise that you described is when an injector isn’t grounded. 

Thanks Stephen, I will give that a try, thank you!!

1 hour ago, Ivylog said:

I would send off a oil sample before assuming the worst. 

Absolutely, thank you!!

I just purchased (at an extraordinary price) a "rough" 1998 Signature, knowing that it needed a lot of work.

The previous owner installed an ECU kill switch to prevent the ECU from draining the chassis batteries.

I tried starting the engine (using the rear starter switch...) before I remembered the ECU kill switch, so I inadvertently had the opportunity to listen to the engine crank, but not fire.

This revealed a very distinct knock that's not audible when the engine is running.

I will mark the crank pully with paint to confirm the knock happens at the same point during the engine's rotation, but I'm preparing myself for an engine rebuild.

So, can anybody recommend a really good engine rebuilder, preferably in Texas?  Also, any shops to "avoid at all costs" would be tremendously helpful as well.

If I'm going to rebuild an N14, I think I would rather pull the (now 25 year old) engine & do a complete rebuild.

Thanks in advance!!

Franko

1 hour ago, Raymond said:

This unfortunate situation happened to me; it’s not a problem with your lock and not a problem with the pneumatic bladder that surrounds the door opening. The problem is a lack of lubrication on the upper and lower latches. The latches float with the movement of the coach and if they are not lubricated they stick and when they stick the door will not open. The latches may adjust on their own in time, but if after an hour or so they don’t then through a window you will have to go. The skylight in the bathroom is not an option because there is another skylight just below the outer one—double panes—and is only removable from the inside. Once inside the coach you can push the door open. That door is remarkably secure when closed— but the floating latches are your problem. To lubricant them once the door is open—just spray a good silicone lubricant on the shaft that is visible in the threshold opening and don’t be stingy but don’t flood it either. Lube it every couple of years to prevent a reoccurrence. 

Thanks Raymond, I will definitely lubricate the latches, thank you for the info!!

I'll leave this post up, despite my security concerns.  I was extremely relieved when I was able to get back into the coach without causing any damage.

Thank you!!

Franko

No feedback from the community so far regarding the emergency exit, so I Marked the Solution & will leave the post online.  

Thanks to all who replied!!

Franko

8 hours ago, grizzly said:

When you say cinched tight do you mean the air bladder that goes around the door to seal it when you drive? If so that should only engage when engine started and you release the air brake. It shouldn't inflate when you turn the disconnect off. I have a sig and that's how it works on ours. Its an 07

It's not air, but I believe it's an early incarnation of your bladder system... I just purchased the coach, it's still in storage & I've only seen it in action once, but it appears to draw the door in tight - there's a slide mechanism that pulls the latch post in tight.  

I'm sure it was designed to do the same thing your air bladder does now, stop wind noise.

Franko

Ok, great update:

We're not sure how it happened, but the Door (not the deadbolt) lock did lock when the door was closed.  Locksmith was able to lock & unlock the door lock, but the door wouldn't open.

It wouldn't open because the gentleman I purchased the motorhome from hit the battery disconnect before he left, Before the locksmith arrived & unlocked the door.

Apparently the Signature has an electric door locking mechanism that cinches the door tight after it's closed (and locked?).  It was this mechanism that was holding the door closed & it couldn't release because the batteries were disconnected.  The seller apparently forgot about this feature...

So, how did I get in the motorhome?  That's the best part - but I need feedback from the Monacoers community on whether this information should Stay posted online, because it could be a security risk for a very large group of motorhomes...

If you get up on a ladder & look down on the hinges that hold the emergency escape exit window in place, you'll find that they're secured to the motorhome with torx screws.  All I had to do to get in was unscrew the hinges from the frame & carefully pull the entire window towards me.  It came out completely undamaged & returned to it's frame with ease.

So, my question is, do we leave this information out there, or do we tuck it away & keep it safe.  

I've read Tons of "locked out of my motorhome" stories, but not a single one mentions this method of getting back inside, so I don't believe it's widely known.

If it Does become widely known, then I believe it poses a significant risk.

Thoughts?

Franko

53 minutes ago, Lee Smith said:

I got locked out of my 2004 signature.

I was stuck at a rest stop in Oregon on my way to Virginia.

I called a locksmith who drilled out the center rivet and removed the whole lock attachment mechanism.

He showed me how to use a pair of pliers to turn the lock open. It had nothing to do with the deadbolt.

I used a small pair of vice grips until I got home and bought a replacement TriMark lock on eBay.

When I removed the inner door panel to install the new lock, I found that a clip had come off to cause the problem.

It has been suggested that I should drill a hole opposite the emergency exit window lever so that I can use a small rod from the outside in the case that I have another lock failure.

I do hope some of this information helps.

Thank you Lee, I will definitely give that a try (if needed, we Might have a spare key that Might work...) & post the results here if it works.

Thank you!!

Franko