LJPierce_ELY

4 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Thanks to WaterSkier_1 and Dr. Frank and Richard and all those that chimed in.  As I SAID, I can offer some theories but, as Dr. Frank says, we are MORE familiar with our own rigs....  So HERE GOES.....

The Print was the KEY.  Thanks to WaterSkier_1.  The Windsor matches, sort of, the way that Monaco did the 2008 Dynasties.....except they have TWO, I think, Inverters. The Trace is different than what we Magnum folks expect to see and the Subpanel complicates it. BUT, the PRINT resolves in my mind, what happened.

The ISSUE WAS, I think, the IOTA. The first clue was the "30" amp light. When the Intellitec EMS did not read 230 VAC between Line 1 and Line 2, then it defaults to 30 amp service as it assumes, and rightly so, that there is NOT two sides of 50 Amp service....Line 1 (Black) and Line 2 (Red). The IOTA had dropped a LEG or a Line. Doesn't matter WHICH, it only had ONE 115 VAC service.....so that Intellitec EMS worked.

NOW....That explains a LOT. If you look at the print that WaterSkier_1 supplied, then the TWO Breakers on the Main Panel (the Intellitec) NOW make sense. The Trace requires TWO separate INPUT AC inputs....which is what the Magnums require on the Dynasties....  

Look at the print again. There are TWO OUTPUTS to the Subpanel. That Subpanel, I THINK, is internally divided....

The Inverter 1 input powers Breakers 1 - 4.  The Inverter 2 Input powers Breakers 5 - 7...as there is NO Breaker 8.  The original symptoms were that the FRONT GFCI and the Microwave were out. SO, when the IOTA took out Line 2....which then became Inverter 2, that killed that.

Replace the IOTA with a good ATS and BINGO....all is well. NOW, at least to me, it makes sense.  I also learned a LOT about the Subpanels used in the older MH and see why Monaco switched to Magnums.....for the lower end. They are either 2000 Watt or 2800 Watt (with a Res Refer).  Dr. Frank's TWO Magnums have TWO incoming circuits....and then TWO outgoing. What makes his really UNIQUE is that there the Inverted power is one one side of the subpanel and the NON Inverter (goes dead when on Inverting) circuit are NOT battery powered.....

OK....this, I think, sums it up....but if anyone has any other pertinent comments....or corrections....please chime in.

NOW>>>>We Moderators always try to teach or at least make sure that folks learn and what is posted is correct.

I AM SUMMING UP A "SUGGESTED" To DO list for LJPierce_ELY.....the original poster.

You have, I think, learned a lot.....BUT, if you are a full timer and 100% DEPENDENT on your MH as your HOME....then, you need to be aware and, when convenient, address the following....

1. Consider a Surge Suppressor (HW50C) as UPSTREAM Protection for your NEW ATS....as well as all the electronics and appliances on board. IF you have a bad pedestal or a circuit problem and LOSE the Neutral or have a FLOATING NEUTRAL (Google that), then you can do several THOU$AND$ of $$ Damage.  We have had folks that hit $15K....they lost all the electric appliances....  THE HW50C protects you from that plus it also takes care and protects you from high and low voltages and such. IT protects the MH's Life's Blood....the POWER. I can NOT overemphasize this.

2. Purchase a SPARE Square D GFCI breaker and have it on hand. These go bad....or at least Fred White and many others had issues with them. You need to get the MODEL number off the one in use....

3. Plan a Preventative Maintenance session and TIGHTEN ALL THE LUGS on the Main Panel and the Subpanel.  Vibration from driving is your enemy. Loose connection will heat up and potentially cause a fire. This is common sense....you will be FINE for the next 5 years or so....AFTER YOU DO THIS...

4. If you did NOT USE LOCTITE GREEN on the lugs on the new ATS, then you will need to open it up and RETIGHTEN in 3 - 6 months.....THIS TIME USE LOCTITE as they will vibrate loose.  This is NOT the fault of any ATS, it is just the fact that when you drive, the ATS's screws will come loose.  ONCE RETIGHTENED WITH LOCTITE GREEN ON THEM, they should be good for a LONG TIME....  I have over 10 years and 50K on mine....with the Loctite and STILL TIGHT....but I check them...

5. When you do the PM on the Brown EMS Panel, do the reset to make sure it is "healthy"

6. Order a spare Camco plug and the Dow potting (sealing) compound. At the age of your plug, you will, I predict, eventually need it. MANY folks carry such....

OK.....GOT ALL THAT....now, here is ONE THING that we all learned at the GATHERING....

On the 5 BUTTON AC/Heat Thermostat, it is BETTER to use the MODE button and turn OFF each zone, rather than the slide switch at the bottom. These switches go out....so the less you use the slide switch, the better...

GOOD LUCK....

Tom, I will keep this as a to do. Many thanks for the suggestions.

Although the coach is not being used full time for the family, I am using it as full time housing for me since I'm in another state working away from home for possibly the next few years. So your suggestions are not falling on deaf ears.

Thanks again to everyone for their knowledge and assistance.

18 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

Go to the Inverter and unplug the data cable for the RC7-GS. Wait a few minutes then plug it back in. You might also spray some contact cleaner in the jack and on the RJ-11 plug.

I'll take care of that tomorrow. I'm feeling beat up from the feet up. It wouldn't surprise me if that works. Monaco put the inverter and the ATS is the same bay with the Gray and Black tanks. That just seems dumb. There is some blue corrosion in one of the unused jacks. I'll get in there and see if I can clean them out.

16 minutes ago, Chuck B said:

FWIW, there is a huge difference between the wiring of the 2002 and 2003 Windsor.  Added to that there were 2 different Windsor's with two different chassis manufactured by Monaco in 2003.   Date of manufacture will determine that.  In August of any given year, Monaco would bring out the next years model.  Therefore it's easy to get confused when trying to determine what the solution to any issue anyone has.  Chuck B 2004 Windsor manufactured in January 2004.  

Well, that figures. I always get something difficult.

39 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

My inverter is located very close to the transfer switch.  You might want to make sure that you didn't hit the off switch on the inverter.

I did that about 11-12 years ago and finally found the problem, simply hit the on switch and it solved my problem.

 

Nope. That wasn't it. It was either one, the other, or both of the following. Pedestal breaker, and/or POS IOTA 50R.

After I got everything done and put back together, I fired up the generator and everything worked, except the RC7. It's still dead. I then tried shore power and had nothing. Needless to say I got a little despondent.

But never fear, I sucked it up and went to start tracing back from the pedestal when the park owner came walking by and wondered what I was doing.

I told him and he checked the pedestal and found a breaker that wasn't resetting. Got that done and BAMMO, I got shore power everywhere including all the systems that were dead. (Except the RC7).

So, it was all the ATS, or a possible combination. In any event, I now have Generator power too so it was a win.

I got rid of that Arson Special IOTA.

Thanks everyone for the ideas and guidance. I don't think I would have accomplished this without y'all helping out.

Until the next post, keep the sunny side up and the greasy side Down.

Peace

Well, the replacement ATS is allowing the generator to work and everything that was dead, is back. Including the rear Air Conditioner and microwave.

The A/C display is now lighted and doing it's thing however,  the RC7 remote control is still dark so I still have a problem with something.

Now, I'm going to shut off the Air Conditioners and then shut down the Generator. Hopefully everything will come back on using shore power. We shall see.

P

4 hours ago, waterskier_1 said:

There has been a lot of info and speculation presented above, that I'm not going individually address.  Here are some observations.

First, if you say you have no 110 input on the Right Breaker (Main L2), then you should also not have the Rear A/C, Water Heater/AquaHot, and Washer/Dryer working.  Can you confirm this?

Next, if you do have 110 on the Left Breaker (Main L1), then you should have the refrigerator, Front A/C, and Block Heater working.  Can you confirm this.  

If the above is true, then you are not getting both sides of the 220 to the main breaker panel.  Troubleshoot this first, as all the other problems may resolve after this is sorted.  It could be anywhere from the pedestal, the connector, the wire, the transfer switch, or the wiring from the transfer switch.  Tom has given good advice on the transfer switch.  Since I believe your generator is not connecting either, I think I'd start with a new transfer switch.

Now for clarification, not necessarily troubleshooting (I believe the above with sort the problem), going off a 2002 Windsor Wiring Diagram (I don't have one for 2003, but think they are the same), you have what is called a "dual input, dual output" configuration for you inverter.  I can't talk to the specific inverter used, because the Manufacturer/Model number isn't specified.  But unless the inverter has been changed out by someone, you have both L1 & L2 going into the inverter, and also an L1 and L2 coming out of the inverter.  Before I explain the reasoning for Dual In/Dual Out, let me suggest that the L1 and L2 wires are crossed between the inverter and the Sub Panel.  This makes no functional problem, but confuses when troubleshooting.  Mentally remember they are crossed and that will help.  

Ok, the reason to use a Dual In/Dual Out configuration (many, maybe most) have this as an option, along with the far more familiar Single In/Dual Out configuration.  By using both sides of the 220, the loads that run through the inverter may be better balanced.  We typically see, especially on lower end units without a separate Sub Panel, that one output connects only to the microwave and the other output connect to all the outlets.  With a Single Input, that means at ALL circuits connected through the inverter (remember, even when on shore power all circuits that are designated to run off the inverter, must run through the inverter), are fed on one side of the 220 line.  With Dual Input, that load, when not actually inverting, can be balanced between L1 and L2.  When inverting, all are on the same inverter output (that is the inverter is 110 only, so L1 and L2 are connected together when the inverter is in operation, but that doesn't effect the input load balance, because there is no input when the inverter is running.

Ok, on to other things.  First, you should never connect a GFI outlet on a GFI breaker or other GFI outlet.   There should only be one GFI protection device per circuit.  Adding additional GFI devices will cause problems - remove any that you may have added in error.  

The wiring diagram doesn't clearly identify which circuit breaker in the sub panel are on which line (L1 or L2).  But if you don't have both L1 and L2 (as you stated you didn't above) then only the circuits that are connected to the line that you do have would be operational.  That's why you see some circuit breakers turning off some things, and others not.   As mentioned above, I think this will resolve once you get full 220 into the main panel.

As a test of the above theory (as if you don't have anything else to do) you could try disconnecting shore (and generator - but I think you said that won't connect anyway) and turning the inverter on.  The inverter should power all the circuits in the sub panel.  If it doesn't, I'd still wait until you get 220 into the main panel before continuing to troubleshoot.

I'm attaching the 2002 Windsor Inverter Wiring Diagram upon which I am basing my analysis.

2002_Windsor_Inverter.pdf 132.55 kB · 0 downloads

I can confirm rear Air water heater, tv and dvd above front and a/c plugs on curb slide are inop.

I also confirm Front roof air, fridge and roadside plugs are working on that slide also working. 

I am in the middle right meow of yanking the IOTA ATS. Although I found no scorching like I've seen, I did find the plastic above the Generator relay to have been heated and bowed upward. So I think it safe to presume that the IOTA is at least bad on the generator side.

Once I get the new ATS installed, I will advise. Should still be a couple hours. Hopefully less. It's too hot to be doing this madness.

Now that is detailed.

Let me get the IOTA replaced and go from there. I already know it's bad because it won't switch over to Generator power.

I'm reducing my overnight power usage to just the Air Cond. and a couple of fans to minimize power usage until I can get the IOTA replaced tomorrow and I'm hopeful that will take care of the problem. If not, then everything will be tightened and I'll start with the above tests.

When I went and got the replacement ATS today, the parts guy at the dealer in Reno was shocked that there was still an IOTA in use. I asked him if he wanted it for a museum of what not to do, but got the impression he'd much prefer me to just take it out and use it for target practice. I will oblige.

Does anyone have a schematic of how those IOTA's are wired? I'd like to be able to easily tell what wire goes to what without having to unravel spaghetti.

A thank you in advance AND for everything else that's been typed on this.

58 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

 

 

Look again,  looks like #7 to me.

I stand corrected. I typed that out in a hurry. Yes. #7.

1 hour ago, Ray Davis said:

Did you use the Fluke to see if you are getting power out of breaker number 7  ?

If there is no power out of breaker 7  try switching the breaker with breaker #2 and see if the problem moves with the breaker.

Actually since #7 GFCI breaker doesn't trip as it should,  I would just go ahead and swap the breakers.

Wouldn't it be nice if the problem is that breaker?

I did not switch the breakers. After another response, I checked the power on the main breakers from the Brown covered panel which apparently gets powered up from the Auto transfer Switch. The right main breaker on that panel, which should have power, is dead.

So, instead of mucking around with playing with an otherwise potential arson special with the darned IOTA, and the fact that I want my Generator back online instead of being a useless weight to be hauled around (when I'm in Mo-bile Domi-cile mode), I'm just replacing the IOTA.

I will feel much better doing that. Then, if I still have a power problem, it will then be diagnosed as either the pedestal, my head connector, or somewhere around the power box next to the power cord reel.

To keep it simple in my head, if I'm reading everything right, I've got a problem somewhere between the Pedestal up to and including the POS IOTA ATS. Would that be a fair summation?

On the presumption that the ATS has gone or is in the process, I'm going to head to Reno and pick up a replacement ATS.

On 8/4/2021 at 9:47 AM, jacwjames said:

 

........................... I would check the two lines going to the 50 amp breaker, these are the wires that come from the transfer switch, both should have 120 volts on them.  If there is power on both of them then the transfer switch is good, if not the problem points to the circuit board.

 

I just checked those 50 amp breakers and sure enough, the right one is not registering anything.

If both of those inputs come from the transfer switch, and one is dead, then that would mean the transfer switch, the shore power cord, or even possibly a breaker on the Pedestal, would be bad, correct?

Would this ATS be an acceptable alternative to the Esco LPT50-BRD?

From what I've been reading, there is a definite and palpable hatred of IOTA and I get it. If the dang IOTA is causing this, then I need to get it replaced most quickly if not sooner.

https://www.campingworld.com/50-amp-automatic-transfer-switch-50065.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign={Campaign}&gclid=Cj0KCQjwu7OIBhCsARIsALxCUaPyVFmP4W981bVzdQgUtGcnY4Qk1nejQ7f2TJc28rCyW1O7O3X3rXIaAm1OEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

I've been mucking around for the past hour and a half, of course with the occasional break for morning coffee.

And I think I've managed to possibly get myself even more confused as I go along to the point that I'm thinking RV electrician.

I am attaching 2 pictures. Both of which should look familiar to the knowledgeable peeps on here.

The gray one is, of course, the left side breaker box in the bedroom. The second, brown one, is where the intellitec board was indeed found. (I looked carefully at that board, it's a Model 760) and it looks fine. No burned smells coming from the box and no scorched earth policy undertaken by the imaginary gremlin sharing my living space.

Several things I've found.

First off. The gray panel.

Breaker 2, shuts off circuits as advertised, Test trip button also tripped the breaker, as advertised.

Breaker 3, 3rd from the bottom, Inverter L1, when tripped, does nothing. No change to power status and no circuits noticed as turning off. (Don't jump to a conclusion yet, please read on.)

Breaker 5, no change. (If you will recall, using the microwave/convection was the original cause of this whole mess)

Breaker 6, 6th from the bottom, Inverter L2, when tripped, appears to shut off the remaining AC outlets but does NOT turn off the front roof mounted A/C (air conditioner)

Breaker 7, does nothing when tripped (Kitchen AC plugs which aren't working right now because of the main problem) That being said, I attempted to trip it via the GFC test button and it did NOT trip.

Now, onto the Brown Panel.

Inverter L1 breaker when tripped shuts down the currently working A/C plugs. (On the gray panel, shutting off L1 did NOTHING)

Inverter L2 breaker when tripped has no apparent effect anywhere. (On the gray panel it shut off some A/C plugs)

So, what I have found here is that between the 2 panels, on the Gray panel L1 does nothing but on the brown panel L1 shuts things off. As for L2, on the Gray panel shuts things off, but on the brown one, it does nothing.

Also, Breaker 7 might have a problem unless it's normal that at GFC breaker won't trip when pressing the test button, if there is no power to that circuit.

So, in final, what does the above stuff tell us?

Got into it this evening, at least as far as the power cord goes, from the pedestal to, and into, the coach.

The power cord, despite all my hopes, is not the culprit. I have power moving through the necessary two wires and into the junction box next to the reel. No change when I rotated the reel either.

I used a FLUKE multimeter I borrowed from the electrical guru at work.

So, It isn't the power cord. One thing I did find was a CAMCO plug on the portion that plugs into the pedestal. So someone has already played with it and I am going to redo it. It doesn't meet my high repair standards. (Basically avoid the use of Electrical Tape where it's going to come apart!)

I'm going to try and spend the morning reading up on some of the replies contained herein in regards to the Intellitec board, as well as using the multimeter to see if I can figure this out.

AND I found the power outlet in the storage compartment that has access to the back of the water heater and what I call "The Water Bay". It is NOT a GFCI outlet.

I will update if, strike that, when. Yes, WHEN I manage to eradicate this little gremlin.

And thank you to everyone who has posted something. It is all appreciated. And a big thank you to Mr. Cherry. I will be attempting to proceed as you so described in much detail.

Mine winds up more forward. I'm borrowing a multimeter from the electric guru here. I'll test the junction box where the cord hooks into. If it looks good to that, then I have eliminated a couple problem areas.

Of course, I will advise.

My power cord is on an electric retract reel. Not easily replaced. How it's wired in I have to research. Right now, the only thing I might suspect on this is the plug end. It's been messed with prior to my ownership and I haven't been happy with the plug due to electrical tape and generally poor condition of the cabling at that plug. It's been on my to do list and will be addressed ASAP.

The inverter I'm going to leave it as is until I get some other things looked at. I may have a mechanic here at work that knows this stuff. If so, and he's a lover of whiskey, I'll get some bribe booze purchased to see if he can nail this down.

When I got home last night I tried to get the inverter out so I could open it up. However, it has too many wires other than just the cables so I resorted to just removing the top cover.

That didn't get me any closer. Large circuit board on to with heat sinks on either side prevented me from getting anywhere near where I need to be.

Being that working on it when the outside temperature was above 100, was quite miserable, I just let it sit and will have to work on it Friday.

I did look at my main shore power cord and it needs to be looked at further. Possible issue there.

And that intellitec panel was noticed in the bedroom. I never paid attention to the labeling.

That's it for the moment.

Thank you. I will take a look see this evening.

The breaker panels are in the bedroom with another board that has spots for 25 dc fuses, of which 21 are used. I see nothing else there.

All the digital panels are forward, above the passenger seat, behind their own cabinet door.

I must be overlooking something.

Tom, that was one heck of a detailed write up. Many thanks. Lots to look at tonight.

It's so dang hot here in NV right now that I'm thinking of looking at the inverter and opening it up (after removing it of course).

There are a couple of GFC breakers in the bedroom breaker panels so not having a GFCI receptacle makes sense.

It really wouldn't surprise me to find an internal fuse was blown inside the inverter. When the system went out, I know I was using the convection function AND the rear Air Cond. was also running. Probably overloaded the L2 on the inverter. I say L2 because when I trip that breaker, nothing dies (probably because that circuit is already dead).

I've used the convection oven before but have to admit, this time the display on the oven really went dim, then off. Like I said, just like a breaker tripping. I don't recall using it when the rear Air Cond. has been running before this.

Anyway, thanks again for the detailed assist. I'll endeavor it this evening.

Where is the board located? Backside of the EMS display?

Would this also affect the AC plugs on the curb side?

I did not see that.

I saw that. Problem is, I am hooked up to 50 amp and prior to my mucking around with the breakers, the LED next to 50 amp was lit yet the large digital display in the middle was dark. I played around with the breakers again, along with everything else including the inverter, and now that display is back to reading 50amp service, middle display is dark, and everything on the right is lit up as well.

I opened up the cabinet up front where the TV is installed. Everything looks OK, messed around with as many of the electrical wires that I could lay my hands on, everything seemed tight.

I was hoping that the AC outlet in there was a GFCI type but it wasn't. On that subject, where in the motorhome is one of those GFC outlets? I have looked everywhere and either there isn't one, or if there is, it's hidden so well that I just can't find it.

As has been pointed out, ad nauseum, I know the IOTA ATS is a POS and needs to be replaced most Ricky-Tick. To that end, I can probably do it this weekend, if I can pick up a replacement ATS at Camping World. Would replacement of said POS ATS fix this most distressing problem? I have my doubts other than making the coach safer from becoming an Arson Special.

Absent finding anything else wrong, I am beginning to think that L1 or L2 on the inverter has given up the Ghost. I am fooling around in a realm that I admit I am not fully knowledgeable about.

Got back to the coach and removed the panel on the front of the inverter. No breakers inside. Just wiring and terminals. All breakers within the coach were cycled again, including the L1 and L2 breakers for the inverter. I cycled them all. No change. My Smart EMS is now showing as indicated, whereas before I cycled the breakers the led next to 50amp was lit and the middle display that now reads 21, was dark. I also included a pic of the inverter I have installed.

Another reply said to check the generator breaker and although it was found tripped or off, turning it on didn't solve anything.

I still have most of my lighting and the TV as well as all the AC plugs in the rear of the coach are working as are the roadside plugs and front Air Conditioner. Rear Air Conditioner is inop as is the water heater.

I haven't pulled the front TV out because it's a total B word to do it but I understand from another reply, that it's a center of where the electrics on the curb side come together.

Any other suggestions?

Ok. That is helpful. Also answers one of my questions on that damn IOTA. So I can wire shore power through and temporarily cut out the Genny. Seems much safer than leaving that ATS wired in. I'll try and get to that this weekend.

As for the inverter, I didn't know about it dividing into two outputs until reading on here. 

Simple answer on the IOTA, lack of funds. It is in my plan to replace it ASAP once I get caught up on bills. I'm not retired.

I am currently at an RV park. Power from pedestal is working otherwise my A/Cs wouldn't be running..

This power issue seems like a blown something, or couple of something's. I'll take a look at the inverter again. Last night when I attempted to reset it, I only saw the one pushbutton breaker on the front of it. There are more? Where are they? Do I have to disassemble?

Thanks for the ideas so far.

I'll give that a looksee when I get home from work tonight. It really wouldn't surprise me one bit to find that the ATS is the culprit but for some reason I'm thinking it's something else. I still have power to the front A/C and the rear of the coach plugs all work. You might be on the right track with a possibly faulty circuit breaker, or maybe something else related to that.

Either way, I'll check those terminal screws in the ATS tonight.

As a belated followup. Had no choice but to finally use a left over water hose insulator (sort of like a pool noodle but not in a neon color), and we put it on the awning support.

I'll be danged if that didn't stop that annoying noise!!! Wish I'd done it a long long long time ago. Would have saved me quite a bit of ibuprofen subduing various headaches.