JESPHDUSA

On 10/20/2023 at 9:27 AM, Ray Davis said:

Great news Eric.   We love this stuff, especially when it works out well.  Yours is sort of a David & Goliath story.        Tell us how you finally decided to conquer the plug & wireing to the ECM & were you able to reuse your old ECM?

Also, what's this about you have got to reinstall the axel?  What axel?

Hi Ray -

I finally decided to use some high-quality crimp connectors and individual heat-shrink, followed by carefully wrapping the whole bundle. I was not able to re-use the old ECM - it was burned. However, the company that provided the new one (ACM) was able to read the data off it so they could program the new one (which was very helpful). When it was towed, they had to remove the axle prior to towing so no damage would be done to the transmission or rear end.

On 10/20/2023 at 11:56 AM, BradHend said:

Mind posting a pic or two of your repair process and/or the final product?
Just curious is all.  
Lots of ways to do it, interesting to see how others do things, the products used etc. 

Hi Brad -

Here's a picture of the spaghetti mess that I had at one point (mid-repair). I also am posting a picture of the completed product, and a couple of pictures of the old plug that I removed, so you can see the extent of the damages. Cheers!

UPDATE:

Thanks to everyone on this forum who was so supportive and positive, I felt confident enough to tackle the job myself and a couple of days ago I successfully got the rig running again!!! HOORAY! Cost about $3000 total (which is $1500 less than United Engines in Little Rock charged me last December to do less work). Now I just have to re-install the axle and take her out on the road for some exercise (which I'm anxious to do!).

Thanks again to all who contributed to my education and gave me the belief that we simple "owners" are smart enough to tackle the big problems when necessary. Much appreciated!!

3 hours ago, Davidsharp said:

Be glad to help you. Just let me know or call me. Ive had really good luck with visone in kentucky. Salvage yard. Might try if you havent already. 

Yep. Visone was one of the first I contacted, but they said they couldn't help me. The website for Colaw RV Salvage in Missouri shows a 2006 Navigator which would have been perfect (no engine bay fire) on their website, but they said they had already scrapped it out. Too bad because I thought I had hit the mother lode when I first saw it.

6 hours ago, Davidsharp said:

JESPHDUSA, 

IF YOU WOULD LIKE SOME HELP ILL BE GLAD TO HELP YOU . Always goin to ward or little rock. 

Thanks, David. That's very generous, and I may take you up on that. But first I have to get the parts. I spent all morning analyzing the situation (first chance I've had to get under there and really see what's what). Looks like I will be replacing the ECU as well, as the connector on the ECU was also plastic and the connector and ECU are fused together. Now I have to source the parts and get them delivered. I will let you know.

Thanks again for the offer - much appreciated!

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

A $10 pack of Electrician’s color tape used for color coding….at both ends or on a replacement harness, easily found on or from Amazon might be a cost and time effective solution. In commercial installs, one does not have three different colors of cable for high voltage and high current runs.  Industrial and Commercial runs label the cables at every J Box or splice and to sub-panels.  Usually a few wraps or maybe 2 side wraps….primarily for “phase” identification when using 3 Phase power.  Or from a run from a main for a big sub or breaker panel.

Understand your concerns, but often times, a KISS solution that has all the reliability of a fully color coded harness is easier and just as effective.  I need to do that on a battery selector switch….thanks for reminding me.

 

 

Good suggestion Tom. I will do that if I can't find a used one and end up having to create my own.

1 hour ago, BradHend said:

I’d be happy to send you a chunk of elevator traveling cable.  Mostly 18 guage, stranded, oil resistant insulation on the wires.  All numbered every couple inches and color coded to a degree. 1-10 yellow, 10-20 orange 20-30 brown etc etc. 

I believe the one we typically use is 42 conductor, with some #14s, a bunch of twisted/shielded pairs as well in addition to the 42 #18AWG conductors. 

Just take the wires out and remake your our harness/loom.   Let me know  

Do you have a confirmed wire count yet?

Thanks for the offer, Brad. I bought 10 rolls of 18ga wire in different colors (25 ft each color) and 25-ft (each) of 14ga black and red, so I'm prepared if I have to make my own pigtail. I also bought a couple hundred open-barrel crimp connectors too. If I have to do it the hard way, I figure to crimp connect, then solder, then heat shrink. I want to do this right, so I don't have to do it twice! Haven't got an exact wire count yet, but I know there are eight 14ga power wires (4 +, 4 -) and I think, 51 18ga.

Thanks, Ivan, but what I really want is the connector/wires that Monaco installed so that the wire colors would match and help me prevent a mistake. I have found online sites where I can buy all new (connector, pins, etc.), but would still prefer to go the route of a used connector with color-coded wires already attached. I've checked with Visone RV, Colaw RV and RVYard.com in Arizona, but no luck with any of them. If I can't find one in the next week or two, I will just order the new parts and make up my own pigtail, but the colors won't match because there are just too many different color combinations with 68 wires.

UPDATE

Well, after much haggling with United Engines of Little Rock, they finally agreed to let me have my RV back and not have to buy the parts from them. They charged me $515 for 2.31 hours of "unspecified labor". Then for another $870, I had it towed to my brother-in-law's ranch, which is close to my house. So, I'm now out a little over $2800 total for moving it about 8 miles from home and still have no parts.

If anyone has any ideas where I can get a "coach-side" ECU connector (with at least a couple of feet of wire attached) from a similar used coach (mine is a 2006 HR Navigator 45PBQ with a Detroit Diesel series 60), please let me know. I suspect most any of the bigger HR coaches from the early 2000s with a Detroit Diesel in them would work.

I have tried most of the major RV savage places that I can find (Arizona, Missouri, Kentucky, etc.) and no luck with any of them. I'm ready to re-wire and get this thing going (and I now have it where I'm allowed to work on it). Just need to source the parts.

As always, I really appreciate all the help and support from the members of this forum.

Eric

UPDATE:

I was told last Friday that the parts were in at United Engines and that I could come do the work on my RV. Got there this morning with a truck full of tools/equipment ready to go to work and they informed me that they had changed their minds. I am now not allowed to work on the RV in their lot. They want to sell me the parts, then have me tow it somewhere else to do the work. I strongly encourage anyone having a problem in central Arkansas to avoid United Engines in Little Rock at all cost! They are the worst service provide I have ever had the misfortune of encountering. I am now looking for a place nearby to have it towed to so I can work on it. Will keep you posted. Thanks for all the words of encouragement and advice. Hopefully I will eventually get to put some of it to use. 🙂

Meanwhile, if anyone has a copy of a schematic from Monaco for this connector, I would be most appreciative. Still looking for that piece of the puzzle.

Scratch the last sentence in my last post. I just went back through this thread and realized that Jim J. had already given me a copy of the 2006 Navigator Wiring Diagram. I'm sure what I need is in there - I just blew past that post in my frustration, I guess.

Thanks Jim J. You are wonderful!!!

3 hours ago, Yoaks5 said:

I would go to the rv and see how back you need to go to get to good wire then make up the connector at home on the bench. Then all you have to do is cut each wire and install the new splice. You could even have the new splice attached on the plug side. 

I'd also check your batteries while you're there. Even with the disconnect off they will still drain down. Probably be a good idea to start the gen and charge them up while you're there. You could even run the air to give you somewhere to cool off if needed. 

Kevin - you're a genius!! I would never have thought of that, but it would save me hours of backbreaking time spend lying on the ground under the RV and probably help prevent me from making mistakes. Thanks very much for the suggestion. 🙂

2 hours ago, cbr046 said:

Instead of wiring in a new connector I'd consider a used connector from a salvage yard.  Just have them clip the harness out with PLENTY of extra wire (you can always cut it back later).  This way color codes match and you don't have to worry about crimping pins or inserting in the wrong hole, etc.  Less time under the coach, too.

Just make sure it's a Monaco with a DD60.  Even close to that year should be the same. 

- bob

Really good idea, Bob. Unfortunately, in order to get the shop to agree to let me work on it, I had to agree to let them order the parts (connector, 68 pins, shroud, etc.). They need to make $ on the deal somehow. Of course, they'll also make money on the ECU because after I get the new connector wired, I'm pretty sure they will have to replace the ECU. Can't imagine that it's not also fried. Heavy sigh...

1 hour ago, Ivan K said:

I would guess there's not so many wires, 30 max? Still enough to make you hurt so find the most comfortable position, foam pad etc, maybe you can even sit under it? Or may even pull the bundle up and do it from cooled inside? Either way, as comfortable as you can be helps to do a better job than straining and hurting for days, from my own experience on the road... All the tools and supplies on a tray with you, nothing worse than crawling in and out all the time. I would also consider a magnetic wire holder to help my shaky hands. When done, I would not use a sticky tape that can rip the connections apart if you have to go back to check or fix something. You can do it!

Also consider a pin removal tool in case you make a mistake and plug it into a wrong hole...

Thanks for the words of encouragement, Ivan. Unfortunately, there are 68 pins on this connector! Main thing is going to be maintaining my patience and accepting that it's going to take several days. If I try to do it too quickly, that's when I will get into trouble. 

7 minutes ago, cbr046 said:

If I were tackling the job on my rig I would cut one wire at a time, well back from the burned portion for a better chance of finding good copper.  I would strip and twist the wires together axially head-to-toe, then solder / heat shrink (don't forget to slip the heat shrink on first!) that one immediately, then do the next one.  And so on.  The key is one wire at a time to keep them from getting mixed up.  Connectors will only make the bundle HUGE.  Even so there'll be a big enough bulge. 

But to your credit it would scare me to death to do it on someone else's rig. 😲

Good luck whatever you decide.

- bob

Thanks, Bob. I probably WILL have to tackle it on my own and appreciate all the input I can get. I wouldn't be as concerned if it was on my workbench, but laying on my back on hot pavement, underneath the RV and 25 miles away from my shop (with all my tools and spare bits-n-pieces), it's intimidating. Probably have to make a dozen trips to/from home and/or the hardware store during the process. If I would just resign myself to the fact that it will probably take me a couple of weeks to complete, it will take some of the pressure off. One wire at a time... 🙂

On 8/5/2023 at 8:35 AM, CRY1942 said:

Best independently owned shop in your area is Ducks Garage in Benton, Arkansas.

I would give them a call and see what they have to say.

Really good folks and RV friendly.

Telephone : 501-778-2886.

Best of luck getting back on the road.

Thanks Charles. I tried them, but he said that was outside of his wheelhouse. Sure wish I could find someone to do the job - I'm nervous about tackling it myself.

Great news! The shop foreman finally took my call and has agreed to let me come rewire the connector at his location!! Of course, I had to agree to let him order all the necessary parts, but that's a small price to pay to get the ball rolling. Hopefully he will get the parts and I will be able to go work on it in another week or so. Now I just have to decide on crimp vs. solder (or both) and go get a bunch of 18awg in a bunch of colors!

A huge THANK YOU to everyone for chiming in with your thoughts, comments, suggestions, and moral support. Very much appreciated!!

13 hours ago, Robert92867 said:

Forgive me for my intrusion, I checked your listed address.. your 22 miles from Little Rock?  I would have it put in my driveway where I can work it at my leisure.

Hi Robert. Thanks for your thoughts. Looks like it might come to that. For the past couple of days I haven't been able to get the shop forman to take or return my calls or emails. I think they are afraid they'll be sued for not fixing it properly the first time.

12 hours ago, Donflem said:

My son uses them all the time loves them he uses a heat gun.

That's 2 positive votes on these. Maybe I will try them - I have an 1800W professional heat gun gathering dust in my shop anyway. 🙂

10 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

I'd definitely consider soldering instead of butt connectors, though the latter are reliable if correctly crimped. (Need a good crimper for that type of terminal.)

You can get crimp terminals with built in glue lined shrink tubing, or use glue lined shrink tubing to waterproof the splices.

Thanks for your input David. I'm still not sure which way to go, so all the input I can get helps me make the decision.

29 minutes ago, Ray Davis said:

I like solder connections too, but I know from experience that old wires, especially burned ones, are nearly impossible to get clean enough to solder very well.

You will likely need to make splices quite a distance up the harness in order to find clean copper and there is the possibility or probability the other wires were melted along with the ones we see.

Unfortunately,  you will likely end up repairing it yourself.  Finding someone willing to take on the job is going to be difficult.  Since we know you have the experience and ability, I think you should do it yourself.  Tell the shop foreman what you told us,  that you are quite capable, and with his help, you'll get it out of there.

Has anyone tried these interesting connectors?  https://www.amazon.com/Wirefy-Solder-Seal-Wire-Connectors/dp/B01M0EZBYQ/ref=sr_1_6?crid=B0UQZYLPMIE5&keywords=wirefy%2Bconnectors&qid=1691112612&sprefix=wirefy%2Caps%2C312&sr=8-6&th=1

Thanks, Ray. I emailed (and left voicemail) for the shop foreman this morning telling him basically what you suggest. No response from him yet. I haven't tried those connectors, but they look interesting. However, if I go the butt connector route, I think I would want one with the crimp AND glue (and then heat shrink sleeve.

11 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Ratcheting Crimper ONLY.  Uniform crimping is imperative.  Good clean copper and no burned or poor insulation.  Best way.  Soldered joints are fine…after you crimp.  Use non insulated butt connectors.  Then solder.  Use good heat shrink with a few layers of tape…under good tension to add more insulation.

My solution…maybe not others.  Soldered is risky, unless you follow exacting specs.  There are several topics that have some examples of soldered joints that will meet RV vibration.  But, they require skill and good workmanship.  Easier to crimp with bare connectors and then insulate.

Hi Tom -

Thanks for the help. I agree with you on the ratcheting crimper. I like the idea of using non-insulated connectors and then soldering too. Best of both worlds. Still waiting to hear back from the shop as to whether or not they are going to source the connector and if/when they will allow me access to do the work. Doesn't help that we currently are experiencing record heat ( the heat index here today hit 118 degrees - much the same tomorrow). I really appreciate all the responses and support I have received on this forum. Wish I had found it BEFORE I had this issue. 🙂

2 hours ago, Yoaks5 said:

Here are the manuals I've collected. Looks like there is a wiring diagram for the ECM plug in the technical manual. 

I would not be afraid to tackle this job yourself. Hopefully they will let you work on it in their parking lot. 

You will probably need to raise the coach. Since you have all options I would raise it up on the Hydraulic jacks and put a couple jack stands under it that should give you room to work. 

Good luck! 

Detroit Diesel Series 60 Service Manual - Diesel and Natural Gas-Fueled Engines 2005.pdf 18.59 MB · 0 downloads Detroit Diesel Engine Series 60 Technician Manual.pdf 2.87 MB · 0 downloads Detroit Diesel EPA04 Series 60 Operator's Manual.pdf 955.37 kB · 0 downloads Detroit Diesel Serie 60 DDEC VI - Troubleshooting Guide.pdf 3.78 MB · 0 downloads

Thanks so much, Kevin. This is GOLD!

59 minutes ago, BradHend said:

I’ve reached out to a few companies that specialize in ECM repair, they are looking to see if they have a connector with the wire whips ready to splice.   
I was also able to find this.  I think it would relate to your engine and ECM, appears to be the same plug on the last page, hopefully it’s of use. 
 

Detroit.pdf 393.85 kB · 3 downloads

Thanks very much, Brad. I'm sure it will be very helpful.

1 hour ago, BradHend said:

Reach out to Visone RV.  They will personally take a look and get back to you.  They may be willing to sacrifice it. 

Great lead - I will do that. Thanks Brad!!

25 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Not sure what kind of resources Detroit Diesel can provide but Cummins has the Quickserve site which owners can access that provides info on maintenance, troubleshooting, parts etc.  On the quickserve site there is an electrical schematic that shows both the Cummins and Monaco wiring.  Here's a screen shot for my engine.   MAYBE ANOTHER NAVIGATOR OWNER WITH A CUMMINS CAN GET YOU A COPY, IT WOULD TELL YOU WHAT MONACO WIRED ON THEIR SIDE

Thanks again Jim. Hoping someone with a similar document from Detroit will chime in here! 🙂

1 minute ago, timaz996 said:

remind them they would not replace the connector and that's what you are doing.  And then I guess you will be buying another ECU from them.

Sorry, I don't know what to say. 

Please don't apologize. Your suggestions have been more than helpful and I'm truly grateful!

Just now, timaz996 said:

Just walk back to your coach with your tool bag and start working on it. If they complain, remind them they would not replace the connector and that's what you are doing. Just do it, don't ask.

Nice thought, but it's in a storage area behind a high fence with a locked gate. No access without permission.

17 minutes ago, timaz996 said:

"Thanks. I may have to go do that myself. I asked the shop manager if he could get me a new connector (makes sense, since the ECU is a Detroit Diesel unit). He said he would check, but haven't heard back from him on it. I've seen a number of Detroit Diesel connector repair kits, but not sure which one might help."

Don't wait on the shop. Go to your coach and strip the harness back and see what you have. Once you find good wires you know what you need. Wiring in a new connector is easy. Just take one wire at a time from old plug location to new plug same location. Use a good quality butt connectors then shrink tubing to seal it. If your not sure just how to do it just look up using butt connectors and shrink tubing on You Tube. Then just relax and do it. 

Good advice. Thanks Tim! Not sure they will let me work on it there, but can't hurt to ask. I was an electronics technician in the USAF, so I should be able to handle the job.

2 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

Also once you strip the wiring loom and expose clean wires, take a good look.  On my coach Monaco labeled most wires with label/number which might help. 

Do you have a wiring diagram?  Here's a link for one in the downloads section 

On my chassis wiring diagram is sometimes list part numbers for the different harnesses. 

Thanks Jim!! I did not have this wiring diagram and I'm sure I will need it. Much appreciated!

13 minutes ago, Donflem said:

Good luck brother. .

Thanks Don! I really appreciate moral support too! 😀

Just now, Donflem said:

Were is the coach at? I know a shop that does that kind of work all the time. I’ve seen them do completely burnt lines and harnesses from scratch but he’s in California. 
Don

Just now, Donflem said:

Were is the coach at? I know a shop that does that kind of work all the time. I’ve seen them do completely burnt lines and harnesses from scratch but he’s in California. 
Don

Hi Don -

Unfortunately, it's in Little Rock, Arkansas. Haven't been able to find anybody locally who wants to tackle the job (and of course, I still haven't located a new connector). Thanks for your help.

Eric