Pudgy Camper

Wanted to give an update on my leaning issue. I replaced both rear ride height valves along with the connecting rods and set the ride height to 9" all the way around (front and rear). I dumped and let the system refill up to travel height multiple times and everything seems to be working fine now. My guess is the old RHV had a dead spot in it or was starting to wear out.

But one thing I noticed is that even when the air is dumped, the coach leans to the right slightly. Could that be my bump stops inside the bags are worn out on that side? 

Anyhow, I'm going on a short trip in a few days and I'll see how she does. Thanks everyone for the input and help fixing this!

On 11/4/2023 at 9:51 AM, Ivan K said:

So it does not come to level ride hight at all? Can you readjust the ride hight valve in case the rubber slipped on the rod or the arm got out of adjustment? Or is the left side raising higher than it should? 

Thanks Ivan,

All 3 other corners raise as normal but the right rear only raised a little bit, probably less than half of what is normal. It's possible the left side is raising higher than it should, but everything looked pretty normal after I raised the right side by manually moving the vale's arm. I'll keep that in mind when I spend some more time on it today.

22 hours ago, Bill R said:

@Pudgy Camper  I agree with @Ivan K that you should try and set your ride height adjustment.  Maybe do both sides of the rear axle while your at it.  Your manual should have the procedure on how to do this for you coach.  Since you are able to make adjustments your six pack should be working.  If the problem persists, then you may have to replace the ride height controller.

Thanks Bill, I plan to spend some time looking at everything later today. I'll check the ride height and adjust as needed. I agree, the 6 pack seems to be working, I'm leaning towards the ride height valve has an intermitted issue.

4 hours ago, Ray Davis said:

Since you can move the right side of the coach up & down by actuating the valve by hand, it implies the valve itself is good and something may have slipped.  

Why not look over the valve mounting and adjustment for anything that may be loose, bent, or broken?

Thanks Ray, I'll look everything over again today but I didn't notice anything broke or loose the last time I was under there.

2 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

I agree, the air leveling system seems to be working correctly.
I suspect, since the linkage looks ok, that something internal to the ride height valve has slipped or changed in some way that changes its center point.
You may be able to adjust the linkage to correct it, but I'd go ahead and replace the valve to prevent it happening again on the road.  They're not expensive, and pretty easy to swap.

Thanks dl, yeah I agree. I think I'll just go ahead and replace the ride height valve, maybe even both of them on the rear.

Hi everyone, I need some help figuring out what's going on with my coach. I've searched and read countless threads about this issue but haven't been able to diagnose my problem.

I started it up the other day and after the system aired up in travel mode, the coach was sitting low at the right rear. I dumped the air and started it up again......same thing. My first thought was that one of the rubber connectors on the ride height valve connecting rod had broke. But all of them are still intact and look good. The second thing I wanted to check was the ride height valve itself. According to the Hadley instruction manual, they can be tested by manually raising and lowering the valve's arm. After turning the key to the on position to activate the HWH system, putting it in travel mode, installing jack stands (for safety of course) and removing the lower connecting rod mounting bolt, I was able to manually move the valve arm up/down and raise/lower the air bags and the coach at the right rear. So this tells me the ride height valve is working.....right?

I've studied the HWH text book and now have a better understanding of how the system works, and all symptoms point to a faulty ride height valve. But I'm confused that it works when I test it manually. Maybe it's an intermittent problem? Am I on the right track here? Any other suggestions on how to trouble shoot before I start throwing parts at it? 

I have a trip planned in a couple weeks and it would be a shame to have to cancel it because I can't figure this out! I feel like it's probably something pretty straight forward. Thanks for any input!

19 hours ago, Jdw12345 said:

Sounds like what you are experiencing is the transmission down shifting around 42/43 MPH and that would account for what seems to be more engine breaking. Imo.

19 hours ago, Dr4Film said:

Your engine brake in high position is using all 6 cylinders. In low is using 3 of the 6 cylinders.

The reason you feel a large difference when your coach reaches 43-44 mph is that your Allison is downshifting as your speed reduces.

Have you determined your speed shift points both up and down? That would give you a better understanding of your Allison and how it interacts with your engine and engine brake.

I always have the Hi/Low Switch in the High position and only move it to the Low position if needed.

When descending a moderate grade, if the High position is slowing the coach too much I switch over to the low position, then toggle back and forth between the two until we reach the bottom. Seldom do I ever have to touch the service brakes unless I need to come to a complete stop.

My engine brake is not head jerking at higher speeds but I do feel a difference between the high and low positions.

You will need to play with it to understand at what speeds it performs the best for your coaches weight and whatever you may be towing.

Thanks guys, that makes perfect sense that it's the trans down shifting giving me that extra braking. Don't know why I never thought of that, I just assumed it was another stage of engine braking. I'll play with the hi/low switch on the next drive too.

I learn something new every time I drive my coach, I guess I need to go on more trips!

Sorry to revive this older thread, but after reading the wealth of info here, I figured it was the perfect place to ask a few questions and try to better understand how my engine brake works. I love my engine brake and I think it's one of the best features about owning my coach, but I'm unsure if it's operating correctly.

I've only been on a few trips in my (new to me) 04 Windsor with the 400 ISL. During the last trip a couple weeks ago in the mountains of AZ, I tried to pay close attention to how my engine brake was operating. Like others have mentioned, I only feel a slight (if any) difference between the hi and low setting. After really paying attention on the long descents coming off the Mogollon Rim down to Phoenix, this is how my EB behaved.

When approaching the descent at about 62mph, engine brake switch in the ON position, hi/low switch in what I think is LOW - the coach descended the mountain perfectly and held about 55mph for most of the descent. Once speed drops to around 43/44mph the engine brake engages what seems to be another stage, drastically slowing the coach down almost too much and forcing me to accelerate a little to maintain speed in some places. 

I tried the hi/low switch in the other position in what I think is HI and noticed maybe a little more braking power but nothing crazy, and performs the same when I get to that 43/44 mph, really slowing the coach down.

So my question is...... is this how these engine brakes operate? Or is my hi/low switch not working properly? Is the braking power I feel at 43 mph the second stage (high)? From my research the LOW stage should be engaging 2 cylinders of braking and HI engages all 6. From my experience it feels like all 6 are engaging automatically at the 43/44mph range. 

Just trying to get a good understanding of how this thing should be operating, and if it's not working right I'd like to fix it, being that we do a lot of mountain travel. 

Thanks for any input!

On 10/5/2023 at 10:56 AM, Tom Cherry said:

OK….I do realize your frustration.  So, here is a different explanation……sort of missing the forest.  BTW, I towed for almost 35k with thr UTB system that is wired into your MH….no issues.  I never messed with the sensitivity and it worked.  Your controller might be different….

Have some help you.  You need to concentrate on the two “main relays”.  There are two relays that work, I think, when you push the brake pedal.  Unfortunately you have the Bussmann block and I don’t know if you have the schematic on it.  So try this. Do this EITHER way…  Pull out one of the Omicron relays.  Use your VOM or your nice meter.  Identify the 85 & 86 terminals on that relay.  Repeat until you know which of the incoming wires energizes each relay.

NOW….Start the engine.  Have someone tap the brakes.  With your finger on the relay, feel the  CLICK. I often use a piece of 1/4” tubing (like a stethoscope) in my ear.  Find at least ONE….or maybe the second that energizes when you hit the service brake.  Identify them.

Now…engine running.  Put on the Exhaust brake. Did the light come on?  If so, have them turn ON and OFF the Exhaust brake….once you have it identified…..pull that relay.  Should have no light.  That way, you know which of the ECM’s circuits is triggering the lights.  

NOW….with the exhaust brake on….tap the brakes….sometimes that cancels the third light and ONLY the tail lights work.  Hard to say, as Monaco changed stuff.

ASSUMING that you have ONE or maybe TWO relays that “clicked or energized” when only the service brake is depressed….parallel another relay in to contacts 86 & 86.  In effect, that’s what Richard did.  Run power to 30 and then take 87 to your brake controller.  This is an isolated, dedicated signal….which is what you want  and have been trying to find ….that”s the simple way to say it and approach it.

I don’t know what else yo tell you.  Until Monaco redid the brake circuit in 2005, there was never, we all thought and that is like hundreds of owners….that there was a positive brake signal.  You find one that looked good.  OPPS….it had an exhaust brake input…

Good Luck….

 

Hi Tom, thanks again for the input and great explanation! I never thought of trying to track down the signal wire like you explained. I'll give it a shot as soon as I have some time.

Thanks again, Jason

10 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

DO NOT START CUTTING WIRES.  Go back to how it was supposed to be wired.  The proper way is to take the NEGATIVE switched ground.  Put in the relay.  That is what most have done.  IF I am correct….the “snip a wire” fix is a dangerous strategy….messing with the input or output of the ECM. Now, if you can locate a method on another site that is documented and folks have done it….then go forward at your own risk….or maybe someone knows how to do it and can chime in.

You have a Negative (memory as all the posts are a little fuzzy) isolated brake light (service brake or pedal activated) feed.  That is what you need to use.  It was what Richard did originally, if I remember and understand.  Finding what you THOUGHT was a positive signal, but it appears that it is coming from the ECM….programmed that way, now does not, after testing, work.

I wondered about the “found the magic signal” when you posted, but thought you might have found something that others had been searching for…and failed.  But, never say…NEVER NEVER…when dealing with a Monaco circuit.

The interactions of the ECM and the brake signals and such are complicated.  We only have, to the best of my knowledge one really “guru”….and he was surprised.  

So…. Cut and snip at your own peril.  You really need to get a copy of the Insite ECM software….then understand the working and the Input/Output of each line or circuit….and then start going through the schematics on your MH and then fully understand how it works….then “snip”…

OR…do it like originally suggested.  

That is what I know…..and what many have done….otherwise, you are probably on your own…. 

Tom, I have tried to explain in the simplest way I can and also posted labeled pictures of my findings to help others that may come across this. But I have been unable to find this 'negative' wire that others have used. Previously I thought I found it, but it turns hot 12v when the brakes are pressed. (see my pictures from 9-22). That is the wire that I'm currently using for a brake signal to my brake controller. I'm not going to start snipping wires and actually I'm thinking about just leaving everything how it is and not using trailer brakes at all. After my trip last week, I realize with the light load I tow I don't need them. All other lights and flashers work as they should on the trailer. Eventually when I get a toad I will venture down the path of a toad brake system.

Right now the issue is brake lights coming on with engine brake and activating my trailer brakes. I still want to track this down but I'm not going to put a lot of effort into it. Seems like there are a few fixes for this....some guys remove a fuse, some remove a wire and others have changed it with Cumming Insight programming. If I can correct this, I'm hoping that it will also prevent the trailer brake controller from activating with the engine brake. 

I know my findings aren't typical of what others have found and used in the past. But I have put my tester on the EXACT wire that Richard and others have used coming out of the grey harness of the Monaco #2 and discovered mine is different. Trust me, I had my fingers crossed hoping everything would be the same and match up to what others have done in the 100's of posts I've researched. I don't know if the previous owner fiddled with something, or this is just how my coach is built. After seeing the installation quality of the old UTB system, I don't have a lot of confidence in whoever installed it! That is one reason I chose to remove it and start from scratch.

So I just returned from 500 mile trip up to the White Mountains in eastern AZ.

Everything went well, however, I discovered that my brake lights DO come on when my engine brake comes on and at the same time activates my trailer brakes. I ended up just turning my trailer brake controller to 'No Boost' mode and everything went fine. We climbed and descended numerous steep mountain grades and my tandem flat trailer towed perfectly. In hind sight, I guess I didn't even need to install the trailer brake controller because my engine brake works great on the downhill mountain sections. Granted, I was only towing about 4500-5000lbs (18' flat trailer and a 2000 lb. UTV, plus gear), but I'll leave the trailer brake controller in case I ever end up towing heavier.

So I guess now I need to figure out how to dis-able the engine brake lamps. I know it's a controversial topic, but I personally DO NOT want them coming on when I let off the gas pedal and engine brake is activated. I've looked for the fuse that when removed dis-ables the brake lamps, but I don't see it in my front drivers electrical bay.

If I can't figure out how to dis-able, I'll just have to live with brake lamps coming on with the engine brake. Any clues on where to look on an 04 Windsor for this engine brake lamp disable?

2 hours ago, Ivan K said:

I suppose you verified that the power doesn't come on with engine or jake brake, right?

I haven't yet, I will verify with a test drive this weekend that everything is working the way it should. From what I know, my brake lights don't come on with my engine brake. This wire activates the brake lamps, but keeping my fingers crossed its NOT tied into the engine brake!

On 9/19/2023 at 11:21 AM, Tom Cherry said:

To close this out....HOPEFULLY...

You are GOOD to GO.  Don't understand the blasted negative ground switching and such.  Also, don't understand why Constant Ground goes 12 VDC.  There ain't any hamsters inside that Diode Bridge.  BUT, it works....and you also found your hidden magic (Christmas present) BLUE wires.  THAT is great.

Advice.  Unless you think there are major issues with the PO's circuit wiring...I would tape over the 4 pin harness and let things be.  BUT, the UTB is a popular item.  Might be that you can pull out the controller and the connector....and even, as a bonus, ship off the 4 wire connector (which you don't need) and peddle that on Ebay.  YOU NEVER KNOW.

Next, get the specs off the Bridge and order a diode online.  Have it as a spare.  You MIGHT also look at the circuit and find the INFAMOUS Monaco one.  Probably a stock item and polarized and click in like a fuse.  Get one of them.  BOTH are critical to your braking.  The Monaco one controls the Brake Cancels Cruise relay.  Something you really want to work.

If my mentor can explain and I can translate into English, I'll get back to you

BUT, as you button it up, the Pin or Terminal number (from the Relay for the CUT and Insert a Diode line would be helpful.

That's it..  Good Luck...

Well I finally got it figured out. I should have used my Power Probe from the start and it might have saved me some frustration. When hooked up it shows if a wire is either positive or negative automatically without changing settings or dials. At first I was using my Fluke meter and I wasn't very thorough in my investigation. 

However, I finally found a good brake signal but it's different from what others have discovered. I found that the #155b wire coming out of the Monaco #2 box, labeled 'brake lamp' is normally grounded but when the brake pedal is pressed (with engine running), it becomes a 14v positive brake signal. So I didn't need to add a relay. I also discovered that this #155b wire is coming off of the #30 terminal of the brake relay. I ended up keeping the UTB diode gizmo that I showed previously and kept it hooked up just as UTB did, as it didn't seem to make any difference with or without it, but I decided to keep it for now. I removed every other piece of the UTB system.

I'm guessing that Monaco changed something in 2004 or someone changed some wiring somewhere on the coach that actually makes this a very simple process if you know what wire to look for. I wanted to share my findings and post a few pictures that show exactly what I ended up with. Thanks to everyone for your help, especially you Tom, for helping me out on this one!

10 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

OK....This is getting confusing....and I talked to my mentor.  What you have is just a "single diode"  When you said DIODE, I thought you mean the Monaco Diode in the Cruise Control relay.  NOW, it gets a little murky...so one question at a time.

Is the "UTB" Controller STILL in the cabin or has it been pulled and all you have is the 4 pin end?  HOPEFULLY that is all you have.  IF all you have is the 4 Pin connector and NOT the "controller"....then it works.  BUT, it is gonna take a while to noodle that out....

Next up.  When you labeled Relay 2 or Monaco #2, JUST to verify....you labeled the wire as Brake Signal.  It, from the drawing, should be pin 85 on that Relay 2 which is also tied or connected to pin 85 on Relay 3.  EXACTLY, looking at the relay and the relay socket....which PIN NUMBER is the the brake signal?

NEXT..  GOD ONLY KNOWS WHY the 4 pin bridge was used.  LOOK AT IT.

 https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/609201/what-happens-if-you-feed-dc-into-a-bridge-rectifier

It LOOKS like the Negative is just a SINGLE pin going to a Positive.  For the LIFE of me, I can't quite noodle out how it turns POSITIVE with voltage.  The Diode is there to prevent a feedback....BUT WHY.  We can't explain it until we see the terminal numbers....so here's the deal..

FIRST....assumption is you have NO CONTROLLER still mounted.....otherwise it confuses me.  SO, if the 4 pin is just hanging there....then that is fine.....

NEXT....IF IT WORKS....then don't mess with it.....  BUT, I do understand your concerns.  You can get the specs on the DIODE by googling or see what is printed on it.  From the looks of the picture....then the 4 diode bridge just has ONE diode in use.  Again... WHY....GOD only knows

Once you get the answers about whether or NOT the old UTB Controller is hooked up and then maybe we can figure it out.  If you get the diode specs, then if the bridge ever fails, you just buy ONE of the diodes and follow the polarity and put in a new one.  

That's it for now.  I'm willing to make good odds that US Gear came up with this circuit....as they KNEW more about Monaco's crazy braking system than maybe even Monaco...

The REST is still valid.  IF you have 2 #14 going to the back....then use them.  If you have a #12...I would fix the connections that concerns you and use that.  BUT, it is your rig and your "want it this way"...

Hi Tom, thanks for all your help, really appreciate it! I agree, it's super confusing. I have an electrical background and have 30+ years under my belt as a Journeyman Electrician but still get confused by 12vdc circuits and automobile electrical systems. That is why I was so confused when I started peeling back the layers of the onion in my rigs brake signal system. The UTB controller is still mounted in the rig, but I disconnected it when I started my investigating. I started with the UTB controller 4 wire connector and started tracing it backward towards the FRB, that's how I confirmed the rectifier/diode gizmo was part of the UTB system. Then discovered the shoddy 2-#14s running under the belly of the coach to the rear UTB receptacle. I really hoped I would find the negative brake signal trigger that others have used and it would have been a piece of cake from there. I'll keep at it and will report back what I come up with after more testing and investigating. I'll take a close look at the Monaco #2 brake relay pin connections like you suggested. 

As for the 'Blue' trailer brake controller signal wire, I found a bundle of 3-#12 wires (red, white and blue) coiled up near my fuel filters in the engine bay. I put a circuit tracer on one of them and found them up front in the drivers side console area! So I'm good there, I'll use the Blue #12 from my controller to the 7 pin plug on the receiver. I've already tested my 7 pin plug at the receiver hitch and everything works as it should there, just need to hook up that #12 blue signal wire.

Again thanks for your help, I feel I'm making progress and getting closer to getting this coach squared away.

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

Still back to basics.  Here is the generic Cruise Control drawing that you need to be using.  OK...OPEN it up.  Go to the Center top.  Look at the TREADLE Valve. There is your diode.  What you have in the picture is a "GEE this might work.." component.  Is it the OEM?  Don't know.  Don't have a picture of the circuit on it.  BUT, it is the diode coming from the Cruise Control Cancel relay.  Yes...your's has 4 terminals.  Monaco did strange things.  Unless you draw a schematic of the Diode and post that, can ONLY guess.  

Now....When you say "Tapped in" that may WELL have been the signal.  This is EXACT same circuit, just drawn a different way from my previous post.  

OK....First....Don't knock finding the signal.  Second, I Think it is supposed to work that way.  SO, my logic.  If you look at the print.  The Diode is what is grounding out the circuit and providing the GROUND that cancels the cruise.  The diode is in there to prevent feedback.  When there is current flowing...the diode allows that current to pass.  SO, when the treadle is pushed, you ground out the coil (Cruise Control Cancel Relay).  Current then flows from terminal 85...through the coil to terminal 86.  Then it goes through the diode and then do the Treadle Valve.  What I THINK is happening is that when you apply the brakes....the treadle valve switch will close.  Then that ground signal actually has "current flowing" through it.  The Diode is acting as a "gateway".  It can sit there all day...but only allows current to flow when you make the signal. Now, on the Anode or the Positive side (green wire), when the Diode allows current to flow, you are getting positive voltage, through the coil of the Cruise Control Relay....at that point, the voltage is still 12 VDC and is going to the ground.  So, that is HOW you are getting POSITIVE 12 VDC, which is what you need. There is actually NOT a circuit across the coil of the relay....until the diode "senses" current.  Once it says...HEY...I feel a tingle...as in the brake pedal is attached, it allows the Positive from the Ignition Switch to flow through the Coil of the Cruise Cancel relay....and when you measure it, on the Anode (green) side of the diode...it is 12 VDC Positive.  

YES, it is a bit confusing...and if we had NOT had this problem of a bad diode causing the brakes NOT to cancel the cruise last week, I would NOT have been able to even attempt at explaining it.

What I would say....  LEAVE IT ALONE.  Use your UTB tap and now you do NOT have to go through a relay.  Richard picked his up from the Treadle....I suspect on the over side or on a switched GROUND somewhere else.  

This is, I think, the way it will work.  SO....here is your test...

First...  Start the engine.  Now, put your VOM on the green wire.  Press the brake.  Do you get a signal (measured to ground) or 12 VDC when you press the brakes?  OK.  NOW, turn ON the cruise.  Push the resume button.  That will take you to HIGH idle.  You should NOT have a signal (12 VDC).  Tap or push the brakes.  Then you should get the 12 VDC signal.  If all that works....  DRIVE ON.

This is one MORE CRAZY but Unique way of getting the signal. I'm going out on a limb here.  Either the PO was really sharp at measuring and trouble shooting and knew how to do a "Cause and Effect" testing...  OR...  US Gear told him exactly WHERE to get the signal, the easiest...and he wired it that way.

CHUCKLE...  I admit that my "Don't tear out what you don't know advice" was generic.  BUT, if I am right...and this is working...and it sort of "makes sense to me", then when we, the "Moderating Staff" tell folks to trouble shoot and make sure that they know what they are doing....as they decide or feel the need to rewire something...especially when it is "WORKING" but they want it OEM, then sometimes they forget the "If it AIN'T BROKE....Don't FIX IT" common sense rule.

I WILL verify my logic with my chief Electronic's Mentor....and let you know.

For the INTERIM...  I would proceed with all the "Grunt Work" and get your new wiring back to the rear of the MH. NOW.. I HAVE NO IDEA about the wiring size of the infamous BLUE wire that you will be running to your 7 pin adapter.  You said the UTB wiring had several wires in it.  Have you determined where they are terminated at the rear? Have you deterermined if they are terminated at the front. If any of them are #12...then I would inspect and possibly use them.  NOW...  There is an old "TRICK" that might be used.  When a home audio installer does work, sometimes it is not possible to get enough "gain" or current to a speaker.  The British use a term called "Bi-Wiring".  In stereo installations, having two pairs or wire on each speaker terminal reduces the resistance...  Here is an explanation about circuits....

Pair 2 wires of any size will not double the amp capacity but at best increase 50 percent or one size stronger like 4 to 3 or 10 to 8. Example: 8 awg and bigger is high a rating and cannot Double to use for 6 awg. Normally 14 or 12 is the limit.

OK....in your case.  Say there are TWO wires going back in the bundle.  If they are #14, then by pairing them and using them as a parallel run, you could bump the current from 15 A on the #14 to 20 A on the pair.  NOW, this, of course, depends on having GOOD connections...

SO, just an idea....as to how you might save yourself a bunch of work.  BUT...that is your call....just options.

2004 Generic Cruise Control - ALL DIESEL.pdf 266.3 kB · 1 download

Hi Tom, here is a hand drawn wire schematic of what I'm dealing with. The rectifier/diode in my picture and on my sketch is definitely not OEM and I believe it's part of the UTB system that was unprofessionally installed at some point. This aligns with a long list of shoddy work the previous owner did that I've been correcting the last 4 months. The splice points on my sketch (labeled 1,2,3) where done with cheap crimp butt splices, (yellow in fact, the wrong size) and tells me this was certainly something the previous owner did or had done. This is why I want to remove all the UTB stuff and start from scratch with my own wiring.

This afternoon I plan to look and test everything again with the rig running and the wife pressing the brake pedal. 

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

One final comment and I appreciate Richard chiming in.  You really do need to look at the wiring.  I can’t say, either way, whether Monaco changed the brake signal.  But what I do know, is that later on, when we were working with another member and fixed his cruise control, Monaco had an ECM signal coming out of the ECM. 

That is the one that concerns me now. However, i think that your rig is the same as Richard’s and, no offense nor putting you down, you have not located the proper “ground”.  I’m attaching the print that is almost the “template” for the brake signal going back many years.  Look at it.  Go to the top middle.  There is a yellow section  that is marked “TREADLE VALVE”.  You need to find that on your prints or on your rig.  That is the GROUND that Richard used.  Now, if you trace it, there is, a “brake light” relay…and it sends the positive 12 VDC to the stop lights.  There are two relays.  One works off the ECM.  When you use the Exhaust brake, that relay brings on the third light.  The other relay is actuated from the Treadle valve circuit.

This sounds like beating the dead source.  But, used the UTB instructions.  It needed a positive 12 VDC BRAKE signal. Trace the PO wires…odds are, assuming he had itbworking, that one of the wires in the harness has your Brake Light signal..probably 12 VDC… BUT, think out of the box and pin out the UTB cut off wires for positive as well as ground. All Monaco did when the went to prewired was use an existing signal.  The goofed.  They had the wrong wire….and US GEAR figured it out. Monaco then tapped into the correct output and had, already available, the 12 VDC signal wire…l

BUT, many folks like Richard found the ground switched wire from the Treadle….and then used it to energize the relay coil (T 85 & T86).  Then you run power to T 30 & when the Bosch relay coil is energized, you have the “ignition on” positive signal AKA Brake Light wire on T87.

Thats it…here is a print.  Odds are…you wiring is the same.  

Cruise%20Control%2038071438.dwg 2.pdf 67.15 kB · 1 download

Thanks again Tom, tomorrow I will have more time and really dig into the wiring and take a good look at the print you have. Today I had a few minutes and poked around with my Fluke tester and discovered something. Whoever installed the UTB system cut in this gizmo into the 'Brake Sig' wire. From what I can tell from a Google search it's a bridge rectifier. But what's crazy is when the constant negative wire is attached to it and brakes are pressed it sends 12v positive to the green wire doubled up in picture. I'm not sure exactly what's going on or how it gets 12v from a negative grounded wire, but this is what UTB was using to get a 12v positive signal for their brake controller. I'll dig into it more tomorrow after reviewing the drawings, but if needed I'll use this rectifier. But I would really like to get rid of anything UTB and have a wiring system I can understand.

14 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

Jason, that would mean that the relay would be energized ALL the time unless you are using the brake pedal. To me, I would think that would cause the relay to fail prematurely being ON all the time. I don't know how reliable those relays are being powered all the time.

What say you?

Yep the relay would be energized all the time until brakes were applied then it would just transfer the power over to a different pin, similar to hi/low beams on an automobile. I'm going to see if I can find a signal up on the firewall at the brake switch before I go that route. Also, my coach had a United Tow Brake Controller installed at one time and some of the wiring is still there but it's not wired like the UTB diagram shows, no relay anywhere. But I may revisit the wiring and see if there's something I'm missing.

43 minutes ago, Dr4Film said:

Jason, Wire #102 rings a bell which does happen to be your brake signal wire.

Unfortunately, I no longer own the coach and it was back in 09 when I installed the brake controller. I believe that wire was open, then when I pressed on the brake pedal it closed and went to negative. Since the Prodigy brake controller needed a positive signal, I installed the relay between the Monaco Box #2 and the controller as described by the Unified Tow Brake PDF file attached.

I wired it such that when the white wire #102 received a negative signal it closed the relay which allowed a 12 VDC hot wire to flow to the brake controller.

I am not sure how you would wire a relay when your #102 wire has a constant signal all the time until you stepped on the brake and then it opens.

Possibly someone with more electrical knowledge than me will chime in to help you.

Unified Tow Brake Controller Brake Signal.pdf 174.62 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks Richard, I believe I can use the constant 12v wire and utilize the 87A terminal of a 5 pin relay. So that when 12v power is removed from the relay, it sends 12v to pin 87A which would be the brake signal for my trailer brake controller. I'm going to spend some time looking things over and test everything again just to make sure I'm not missing something!

1 hour ago, Dr4Film said:

Jason,

Your Monaco #2 Box should have two connectors. The one you want is the right side Grey connector. It should be an 8 wire connector with only 6 wires on it. See photos. The white wires should be labeled. You can see from one photo which wire I tapped into with the blue wire tap.

Unless the 04 Windsor is different than the 02 that wire should be labeled Brake Signal. However, it is a negative signal wire and the brake controller needs a positive brake signal to work correctly. That's why the need for an 87 relay is to change the Monaco negative brake signal into a positive one.

Thanks Richard, they must have changed some things on the 04. After searching and reading old posts on this topic I expected to be able to do what you and others have done here and install a negative tripped relay like your pictures show. I found the wire in your picture that you have the blue suitcase connector on. However, on mine it's labeled 'brake lamp' #155b and is 12v hot until the brake is pressed. The wire to the right of it is the 'Brake Sig' #102 wire and is negative (grounded) all the time until the brakes are pressed then it opens.

Richard, when you refer to the signal wire as being a negative signal wire, is it a normally open negative on you coach? Meaning when brakes are pressed that wire goes to ground? If that's the case, mine is the exact opposite and it's grounded all the time until brakes are pressed then it opens. That's why I'm thinking I may need to use the 87A terminal on the relay, turning the relay into a normally closed relay.

14 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Unless Richard did it another way.  TWO ways... BUT, you need to verify (and I will not assume that you tested with the ignition switch ON...but you need to). .You need to find a 12 VDC from the Ignition.  Then put it on terminal 85 and put the Ground Signal (always ON) from the relay to terminal 86.  SO, when the brakes are pushed....the relay (which would be energized) will open up.  Then you feed the SAME 12 VDC from the Terminal 85 to the number 30 terminal.  THEN, your POSITIVE signal from 87A will be the signal to the brake controller.  NOW....remember, your controller is going to send out a high current signal.... What you are after is just the BRAKE PEDAL signal.  See the wiring from Etrailer...it is typical for a 4 wire brake controller.  The POWER (Black) wire has to have a 20 amp circuit breaker....from the Chassis STUD....NOT an ignition controlled source.  So, the Red or the brake is just a low amperage "controller.

https://www.etrailer.com/question-6890.html

When you turn on the engine...the relay is closed...as you have the ALWAYS ON ground from the Monaco relay....and then the Ignition ON 12 VDC positive.  SO, instantly....the relay closes.  THAT kills the circuit from 30 (Ignition ON 12 VDC) and 87A has NO signal.   Therefore you have NO power from 87A.  BUT, when you tap the brakes....then the relay opens or is de-energized... 87A is now HOT....as in your brake controller gets a "Brake Pedal" signal....

NOW....we have had some issues lately with brake lights and such.  SO....following your comment... MY POST ABOVE might not work....as in, we don't KNOW the source of the NEGATIVE GROUND signal.  If it is coming from the ECM, then you need a DIODE.  BUT the polarity is tricky.  You need to find a 3AMP 12 VDC diode.  NOW here is what you do.  NAPA sells them or you can order one.  The Negative is the CATHODE.  The Positive is the ANODE.  If you look at the DIODE, there is a an ARROW or triangle.  Hook up the GROUND (always ON) from the Monaco relay to the NEGATIVE SIDE.  Hook up the POSITIVE side of the diode to pin 86.  Thus, you have a diode in the circuit so there is NO chance of a feedback to the ECM.  YES, that will work.

OK...but if you want the easier way....then use the POSITIVE.  If I understand you.  There is a POSITVE coming out of the relay.  When you tap the brakes (assuming you are testing with the IGNITION ON....your TEST always has to be with the IGNITION ON)....then the positive drops out... the relay closes....and then 30 and 87A are closed.  SO...do the reverse of above.  Ground OUT 86.  Use the Positive, always ON, until Brakes are TAPPED, positive to the coil.  Same deal.  The relay is always ENERGIZED....but when you use the brakes, the relay De-Energizes....when it does, then the Ignition ON wire (fed to 30) is connected to 87A.  That goes to the RED in the 5 wire drawing....That is the same a BRAKE LIGHT.  I would not sweat or use the diode here.

That's how it works.  A word of caution.  Never yank out something that is not needed as long as it is working and all is well.  We have had folks cut out what looked like a redundant item.  OPPS....They do NOT know what was being used from what.  NOW....  I can't figure out, from you narrative why there was a DIODE in the UTB circuit.  I KNOW THAT.  Hooked it UP TWICE in two different motor homes. 

NOW, if there was a FUNCTIONAL UTB in your MH, then SOMEBODY had to run a wire back from the FRONT to the REAR (a LONG WAY and the hardest part of this).  IF they ran the wire back there and it was a #12, FIND IT.  Then you can use it for the BLUE...or the output to the brakes.  MOST of the brake controllers send out a variable voltage.  So, when you slam on the brakes...a FULL 12 VDC hits the brakes.  BUT, if you only #14 wire, yes...it is rated for 15 A, but you get a lot of drop from front to rear.  That is why you need a #12. 

NOW, check with your controller tech support.  Ask them if they have one or find one that requires a REAR Relay....where you put in 12 VDC and the relay will chatter..  Maybe be off the wall...but the hardest part is running the extra line.  I would NOT do that until I found the INFAMOUS blue wire that the UTB used. 
Scroll to the end....look at the wiring.  Figure out WHERE the infamous BLUE wire, that HAD to be run to the rear is.  Check it's size.  if #12, you have lucked out and saved yourself 90% of the install....Good Luck.

http://www.usgear.cc/utb_install/utb_install.htm

 

Thanks Tom, I considered using the 87A terminal and using it as an normally closed relay, buy I was confused with all of the other threads talking about using term 87 and tying into the negative switched wire. I've tested my system both with the key on and off. The brake lights activate with key off as well as on. Running a blue wire from front to back shouldn't be too bad, being that I have a conduit system installed, just need to get the positive brake signal wire squared away.

The existing UTB wiring in my coach does have 2 wires that run to the back, but the previous owner ran them under the belly of the coach and some of the fasteners have already come loose and the wires are hanging pretty low under there. So my plan is to abandon all of the old UTB wiring and start from scratch with all new wiring for a standard trailer brake controller. Down the road I'll work on setting up a brake system for a tow vehicle, but I just want to get trailer brakes for now.

Also, thanks for the info on the 20amp circuit breaker and diode. If I go with the 87A option, I will go the simple route and use the always positive coming from my Monaco #2 box. I've seen the breaker in wiring diagrams, but was unsure why one was needed. There is actually one in the FR bay that was used with the UTB system.

Thanks again for your help!

Hi everyone, I need a little help figuring out how to get a brake signal for a trailer brake controller. I've searched and read all of the threads on here about this topic, but I'm still a little confused. I've found 2 brake wires that come out of my Monaco #2 box, 1 is grounded all the time until brakes are pressed then it turns into an open connection. The other is 12vdc until brakes are pressed then it opens.

After reading other threads and learning how Monaco used a negative switched ground to control the brake lights, I expected to find the negative wire coming out of the Monaco #2 box to be in a normal open status and close ( go to ground) when brakes are pressed. If that would have been the case, it would have made hooking up a negative triggered relay a simple process. To make things even more confusing is the previous owner installed a United Tow Brake Controller and some of the wiring for that is still in place. In my initial testing and snooping around my front electrical bay, I've unhooked the rectifier the UTB had hooked up and tried to focus on just the OEM Monaco system. I want to remove all the UTB stuff and start from scratch.

I'm familiar with wiring up a relay, but the way my brake signal currently is (normal closed negative wire), I'm confused how I would wire up a relay.  In this diagram of a negative triggered relay, the negative wire is the trigger and needs to close in order to send a 12v signal to the device (which would be my trailer brake controller). What am I missing? Thanks for any help!

Hi guys, I'm doing some work on my air system and figured I might as well pick up a new governor to have on hand or maybe even changeout now. The Monaco Parts List in the forum files calls for a Bendix part# 275491. However it's unavailable at my local NAPA, but there are a couple similar governors available. 

So my question is...are these universal? Or do specific part #'s fit specific models? Should I take my old one off and match it up to what NAPA carries?

Thanks for any help!

Thanks for the input guys, I think I'll just clean it up the best I can and paint it for now as suggested by Tom. I don't want to risk contaminating the tranny by pulling it off. I'll keep an eye on it and deal with it if it springs a leak. 

16 minutes ago, BradHend said:

Apologies on hijacking’s this - @Tom Cherry , your suggestion of using the iron phosphate conversion coating - would that be acceptable to be used on my engine and frame? My poor Cayman is so rusted. It stresses me out as I’m dumping a fair sum of money into it.  I know the damage is done, but it would be nice to find a way to fairly cheaply prevent further damage.  For the record it was purchased this way from a fellow Canadian in North Bay Ontario. 

BradHend, I had the same rusty frame issue with my Windsor. I used a flapp disc and wire brush to strip as much as I could then sprayed it with Rustoleum Rust Reformer, then a couple coats of Rustoleum enamel. It was a little bit of work but came out pretty good.

I'm servicing my Allison 3000MH and I would love to get rid of this crusty, rusty tube before it causes any issues. It's the tube that connects the dip stick rubber hose to the transmission. I'm having trouble finding a part number or any information on it. I've talked to Allison and they said most likely Monaco installed it. Talked to REV Group and they don't know anything. Anybody know what this tube is called or have a part number?

7 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

All the Cummins techs that have presented at Rallys have said that unless you have modified your engine, there are sufficient controls that you can't damage the engine.  The computer will derate the engine to protect itself.   That said, I would not drive my chipped Ford diesel pulling my boat over tye mountains without a pyrometer. I know I can exceed max temp on the Ford after being chipped. 

  - Rick N 

Yeah I agree, I tend to kind of geek out with the diesel stuff and having more info the better. With my built up Duramax, my added pyrometer taught me how to drive a diesel especially in the mountains towing a heavy load.

Thanks everyone for the input! I think I'll go ahead and add this project to my list. Really makes it easier with my turbo already removed and I happen to have a 3/4 pvc conduit that runs from the engine bay to the front of the coach which makes running wires a cinch. 

Just curious how many of you have done this. I have always had a pyrometer gauge in my diesel pickup trucks and found it very useful. A lot of my future travels in the DP will be climbing the mountains outside of Phoenix and figured a EGT gauge would be beneficial. I'm currently in the process of some major work on my Windsor and have the turbo removed. I was thinking this would be the perfect time to drill and tap the exhaust manifold for a pyro probe. Maybe at the very minimum drill/tap and plug for a future probe install. 

The Banks kit is around $300, not bad for a very useful piece of info. Thanks for any input.

UPDATE: This evening I pulled the actuator and bench tested it with compressed air. It seems to move freely. I'll have to check the Cummins procedure again on the amount of movement that it needs to take place, but it moves close to 3/4" up and down. However, my flapper rotates freely inside the turbo, but the rod is seized to the flapper pivot. This seems to be the same situation that John had about 3 posts ago! So I'm guessing a seized rod was the issue and the previous owner decided to cut the rod in half in order to get everything moving again. When all he probably had to do was spray some PB blaster on the pivot point and work it free. I think I'll still pull the turbo off just to have it double checked, but I'm hopeful that the mystery has been solved.