Basic Electrical system questions and overview - 2007 Sig

[grizzly]

3 questions.First one is : the power control system in the back control closet, is it only 12v or does it have some 110 in there?Just like bay on outside driver side is all 12V?

Second question: Has anyone ever put in a lightning/EMP protection on your coach?

Third question: All 110/220 goes through the electrical panel up front that has all the breakers ? The 50 amp breaker is just like in a house where it is the source of incoming power and is disconnect also correct? Also the generator runs through that same breaker when the switcher changes to generator mode?

 

[Yoaks5]

1. I have an 06 navigator and believe mine is only 12 volt. If in doubt get a volt meter and test. On mine these are the controls for the house lights and fans. 

2. My coach came from the factory with Surg guard transfer switch and surge protector in one. My transfer switch part of it went bad and I replaced with a separate transfer switch and a power watch dog. These won't talk to your Aladdin any more but the hardwired watch dog is Bluetooth and I can look at the incoming power and fault codes on my phone. If you search surge guard you should get more info on this. 

3. Yes to all. 

[Tom Cherry]

Time to pull the prints in your manual and learn how the MH works.  Don't know if this is your first MH or first Monaco....there ARE DIFFERENCES. This is the "ELEMENTARY Monaco Electronics - 101" 

The 120 VAC power comes from two sources.  One is SHORE and the other is your Generator.  BTW....your Generator is a 230 VAC...so you have TWO lines (Line 1 and Line 2).  It is the SAME type of power as a 50 Amp source.  IF you read about folks with Generators, make sure that you understand that your generator is different from the lower food chains....like the 8.0/7.5KW.  Your Generator needs to be run with 50% load (say all three HP/AC) for maybe half an hour every 6 months...otherwise the brushes get dirty.  NOT necessary on the smaller.  

The ATS switches the power.  When you turn ON the Generator, the ATS ASSUMES that you do NOT have pedestal power....or it "Measures" the Generator Terminals.  THEN, if there is power (as in the Genny is on), it switches to Generator.....  It ain't that smart.  BUT your Factory Monaco ATS did come with a built in Surge Suppression system.  You can pull the model number from the ATS.  The Signatures MAY have had a higher level of protection from the Dynasty.  SO, google the PN or read the manual on your ATS and look at the specs.  MOST folks do NOT change them out.  BTW....if it EVER DOES go bad, you will lose the Aladdin AC Voltage/Current screen.  There is a proprietary dedicated data bus that has to receive a coded digital signal.  When SurgeGuard upgraded or maybe Aladdin, a replacement SurgeGuard ATS will NOT have this output....so the Aladdin is useless for AC measurement.  

The output of your ATS does to the same type of panel as your HOME....a Dual Breaker 50 Amp Panel.  NOW....we are headed to Level 202....  LOL....It gets tricky from here.

There are TWO AC Panels.  One is the MAIN panel.  It has all the AC's and block heaters and such.  There are TWO 30 Amp Breakers.  BOTH feed the Inverter.  The Inverter is a DUAL IN and DUAL OUT configuration.  The inverter gets AC from the main panel...through the TWO feeds....Line 1 and Line 2.  THEN it takes that power in.  ASSUMING it does HAVE POWER....it then feeds your "critical AC stuff".  There is a SECOND panel called a Main Panel.  It has TWO Sides...same as the Main.  These sides are SPLIT....so this is generic.  There is a diagram in the panel that tells you.  You have GFCI protection for all the outlets that are within 5 or so feet of a sink or water.  There is a DEDICATED outlet for the Microwave....NOT GFCI protected.  There is a DEDICATED Outlet for the Residential Refrigerator....NOT GFCI protected.  Don't panic, as some do.  Your HOME microwave and refrigerator (98% of US) are on Dedicated circuits and NOT GFCI.  These MAY trip, false positive, an older or a "slightly cantankerous" GFCI.  This is called a nuance trip.  People who have a freezer in a garage on GFCI are the ones that end up with all the contents SPOILED as some "blip" tripped the garage GFCI.  That is why homes are configured.  BUT, the ELECTRICAL WIZARDS today are going to require GFCI on these two circuits.  Electricians and Appliance Repair folks will have a field day and their retirement account will be greatly improved.  PARDON my humor, but my wife was a professional Tax Preparer.  The partners in her firm laughed everytime the IRS Tax Code was SIMPLIFIED....they saw a 25% increase in business.  I PREDICT...as the NEC changes, the SAME increase in business for the folks that come out and tell you..."Nothing Wrong...." Just the nature of the beast.  $200 please.

NOW....REMEMBER THIS.  Your INVERTER has a SMALL ATS inside.  In order for you to have ANY internal Outlet, Microwave or Refrigerator power....you MUST have a "fair" set of batteries.  IF the Inverter says....these batteries are crap and I can't charge them....then the ATS does NOT even allow the incoming GOOD Shore or Genny Power to go through the ATS.  There is no MAGIC WAY to fix this....actually ONE....but it is a bit extreme.  You can NOT just unplug and move....  The ONLY way would be to turn ON the Block Heater and run an extension cord to the Microwave and the Refrigerator.  All the outlets are on the hard wired GFCI....so just use a second extension cord....and you will be on limited power.  NO OFFENSE, but this "QUIRK" as many call it has driven folks crazy and results in a lot of "OMG....LOST POWER" topics.  So we Moderators often post this for general information.

As to your FIRST question.  That is called the HOUSE DISTRIBTUION AREA.  That is ALL 12 VDC.  That is the HEART of your system.  All you lights, exhaust fans, water pump, etc. are 12 VDC...so you can BOONDOCK.  There is also a critical unit....all your INTERNAL LIGHTS or anything on the "Switch pads that light up".  This is an Intellitec Multiplex (MPX) System.  It has a COMPUTER or a Programmed CPU (Central Processing Unit).  It is COMPLEX...  The ONE THING you should never do....is to TURN OFF the Battery Switch by the door as you come in.  That shuts down every INTERNAL DC Circuit.  It is called the Salesman's Switch.  DUMB..

  If you turn it on and off in order not to use the switches, you also PULL the power from the CPU.  Think about unplugging a computer from the wall instead of shutting it down properly.  Then when you return....it thinks that the world came to an end.  It has to REBOOT or RESET and there are 5 downstream electronic devices that also wake up.  You do NOT have hard wired light switches and such like at home.  All the functions on the lighted key pads are ELECTRONCIALLY controlled.  SO, if the CPU goes haywire or you loose on of the 5 or so downstream modules.....whatever is on that module...will no longer work and your have a COMPLEX MPX issue.

SO....leave it ON.  When you store, hopefully you have power....and keep your House Bank charged.  Constantly turning off the batteries results in the CPU and the Modules (MPX Components) rebooting or having to reset.  YES....that is the way you "FIX" a gremlin....and folks familiar with the MPX will often do a REBOOT or use the Salesman switch.  That is the ONLY redeeming quality, most folks say, of having it.  

That's it.  No Pop Quiz....

 

 

[grizzly]

Thank you Tom that pretty much answered everything . Only question left is has anyone but a lightning protection or EMP protection devices in their rigs?

[Tom Cherry]

4 minutes ago, grizzly said:

Thank you Tom that pretty much answered everything . Only question left is has anyone but a lightning protection or EMP protection devices in their rigs?

Read the SurgeGuard Manual.  The nicer ATS in your rig will protect it from a variety of power issues.  However, Lightning is one of those things that very few Surge Suppressors will help.  A JOLT goes in.  YES, I think that the ATS will offer some.  Call SurgeGuard and ask them. 

I have friends that are "Well Prepared" for an EMP issue.....they have Faraday cages over critical survival electrical devices.  If a major EMP hits, THEY TELL ME....they are WELL READ....then a surge suppressor or a lightning road or such is like David's pebble.....he hit a million to one shot on Goliath....but that is about the odds of any commercially installed device fending on a major EMP.  

SO, you need to define and quantify the type and intensity of an EMP.  Ordinary blips or power surges will work OK....assuming that your SurgeGuard has NOT taken a major hit.  UNFORTUNATELY, there is (or maybe there is....ask SurgeGuard) any way of telling....if it the MOV's have been hit or tested.

SO....ask SurgeGuard.  SOME folks have opted to remove the Surge Guard ATS and put in a standard ATS with an upstream Surge Suppressor.  The common and most used combination is an ESCO LPT50BRD and the Progressive Industries HW50C.  Some have sold their SG ATS on ebay...  There ARE other brands of ATS as well as Surge Suppressors....but the majority of the Surge Suppressors are newer.  Many folks, originally, that started up this site way back when actually helped the Founder of Progressive and did some testing.  I came in later....and he was located near me so I got to know him.  He sold the company....but the design is the still the same.  BOTH the ESCO and the Progressive have REPLACEABLE BOARDS.  SO, you remove one and put in another.  The SG has to go back to the factory....

That's about it....totally different subject than just a basic "how does it work" and the discussions about such are often subjective and folk's "criteria" vary from a major EMP storm of a blip from the power company.  Your Genny is GREAT.  NEVER think that you need to add anything.  The added on Surge Suppressors go on the INCOMING SHORE side of the ATS...and that also protect the ATS....  

[grizzly]

Been talking to a company called. EMP Shield about devices they have for EMP( Solar Flares and attacks) Different than the siege protectors I have( Surge Guard and the one in the coach) They have them for your vehicles as well. But my understanding is a major EMP will go into circuit boards , devices like cell phones , vehicles etc, even if not connected to the grid. This company also sells them for homes and make some interesting claims. Just trying to get a better understanding and decided if it is real and worth it. I know faraday cages are the main way or like I have faraday bags for some of my electrical devices . Thanks for input 

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, grizzly said:

Been talking to a company called. EMP Shield about devices they have for EMP( Solar Flares and attacks) Different than the siege protectors I have( Surge Guard and the one in the coach) They have them for your vehicles as well. But my understanding is a major EMP will go into circuit boards , devices like cell phones , vehicles etc, even if not connected to the grid. This company also sells them for homes and make some interesting claims. Just trying to get a better understanding and decided if it is real and worth it. I know faraday cages are the main way or like I have faraday bags for some of my electrical devices . Thanks for input 

Your call.  There is a lot “interesting claims” about many products…..weight loss, testosterone increase, lowering cholesterol, growing hair.  

I have a very learned friend with a couple of degrees and is highly technical and he spends time on the blogs with people that are building faraday cages and have some of critical electronics “protected”.  Same folks that have mega amounts of stored ammunition and have water powered “generators” to provide minimum electricity for essentials.

His comment….an installed EMP Protection device is not feasible from a scientific or electrical standpoint.  The “EMP” storm or eruption that they are preparing for is based on the number of conductors or wires in a “mass” as well as the size of the mass….as in length.  So a MH with a steel frame and bundles or wire running fore to aft ….forget it.  Build a carport and then use it as a frame for a faraday cage.  Otherwise, there is no effective “add on” electrical device….known to him and his associates, that will provide any protection and that there are several “Professor Harold Hill” types out hawking and selling devices with “certification’s” based on science that is not related to EMP, but sounds impressive due to the claims and jargon.  

I also, personally, have had some quotes and engineering studies run for our church, as we seem to be a lightning “magnet” and the contradictions in the “my system” versus theirs are unbelievable.  I was a 2 year EE student….always interested in “wires and things”.  I don’t know if anyone has developed a “surefire” lightning rod for a MH.

From a probability or risk assessment standpoint, which was my responsibility as the “resource conservation” Director, I would be more concerned about the MOV’s in my existing SurgeGuard ATS and find a technician that can remove and install all the sacrificial components.  We had an individual like that and he devised a test procedure and replaced his MOV’s and a few other items every 3 years or so on his 2006 Dynasty. Unfortunately, he passed away.

Again….my opinion and my research and understanding based on a lot of hours listening to a few friends that were of the “prepper” persuasion….

Others may scoff and be more knowledgeable….and I just gave you my interpretation….

 

[grizzly]

Thank you Tom I appreciate your input and value it .My conclusion was the same as yours and you confirmed it and I was looking for some one with EE background or similar. Thank you once again.

[Tom Cherry]

3 hours ago, grizzly said:

Thank you Tom I appreciate your input and value it .My conclusion was the same as yours and you confirmed it and I was looking for some one with EE background or similar. Thank you once again.

FWIW.  

https://ourpastimes.com/test-metal-oxide-varistor-7643295.html

Any person with some electronics skills or training should be able to take apart your ATS.  THEN, identify the MOV’s on the PCB.  Then desolder one leg and test the resistance.  Or….be a big spender and order replacements and just “rebuild” the “surge absorbing board”.

That, if you have a concern, would be a good move.  Your ATS is no longer available and a new one will not interface with the Aladdin.  Thus, replacing the MOV would ensure that the electronics inside the ATS as well as the downstream components inside the MH would be properly protected.

Just a thought….and the procedure is simple

You are welcome

[grizzly]

Tom I have the Surge Guard ATS. You said they are no longer available?

 

[Tom Cherry]

9 hours ago, grizzly said:

Tom I have the Surge Guard ATS. You said they are no longer available?

 

Not exactly.  There are replacements, made by SurgeGuard.  As I said, Monaco used at least, I have been told, two or three “versions”…. Supposedly the upper end like a Sig had a the “super deluxe”, that does everything except attend to personal hygiene after using the toilet.  Now, that may be in error….

Bottom line, when Monaco started installing the “surge protected” Surgeguard ATS, they and Aladdin utilized a data buss or line that provided the Volts and Amps for your Aladdin monitoring system.  This was not the typical current measurement via a toroidal coil or a line carrying a voltage signal.

Later on, Surgeguard discontinued making that switch and the replacement does NOT interface with the Aladdin. Thus, you have no voltage & current monitoring.

Folks have experimented and tried to rebuild these “data buss” ATS.  There was a recent thread about a contactor failing and there was no replacement….it was a common contactor made by a well known brand but, they, too quit supplying that part number..

SO…PERSONAL OPINION….if I had a functioning Surgeguard ATS, I would remove it, disassemble and get the values for the MOV (off them) and remove the MOV’s and replace with new ones.  This is not complicated….one just needs to know how to use a low wattage iron and unsolder and pull out the leads.  Then use desoldering wicking mesh to clear or clean out the PCB eyelets (hole) that they were mounted in and then put in a new one and solder back in place.

Then, your Aladdin will continue to work and the “rest” of the ATS’s functions will be protected….as will any downstream devices.  A surge protector has an array of MOV and a circuit board.  They are like “airbags” as they sacrifice themselves and absorb any nasty power.  BUT, they differ from airbags as they keep taking the hits…but eventually they die.  Start with a new array…and you have max protection.  

Otherwise, install a new surge protector…with more features and a display and then a “conventional” ATS, assuming both, like the Progressive HW50C and ESCO LPT50BRD, are field Serviceable….as in, get a new board or contactor….then you have simplicity.  The HW50C has a direct display remote….I know my exactly voltage and current without having an Alladin. I also get 12 different “code” to tell me “why” there is nasty power or a miswired pedestal….

[grizzly]

Tom so I also use a high end surge protector outside on the power connection. Will that help save the ATS or make it last longer by sacrificing the outside surge protector first ? I had to replace it about a year ago. Also we live in out coach full time so taking out the ATS and doing what you suggested would be difficult  But thanks for the info like always

[Tom Cherry]

2 hours ago, grizzly said:

Tom so I also use a high end surge protector outside on the power connection. Will that help save the ATS or make it last longer by sacrificing the outside surge protector first ? I had to replace it about a year ago. Also we live in out coach full time so taking out the ATS and doing what you suggested would be difficult  But thanks for the info like always

Two schools of thought on this.  The NEC and UL, several years ago, said NOT to daisy chain surge suppressors….something to do with a “grounding” issue.  I’ve read a lot and don’t know if this makes sense.  MAY have been written for power strips.  Certainly a high end 50A is not the same.  You MIGHT call Surgeguard and ask them.  What the theory or rhetoric was that in the event of a large spike….the two units might get into an “electronic argument” about who had the most “absorbing power” and then be going back and forth and let the spike hit….

Wish I knew…so call and ask….

[Tom Cherry]

OK….lots of reading….one really long topic elsewhere.  Many other brands that install the expensive Southwire/Surgegurad ATS have dual protection.  They, predominantly, Install a Progressive Industries unit.  Some opt for installing the hardwired unit….and they have remote monitoring….cheaper than adding the remote monitoring to the Surgeguard.  There are field reports when folks lost their expensive switches….and where the Progressive took the hit and saved the ATS.  Most all commented that the “field repair board” in the Progressive was a deciding factor compared to the other brands….that are now popping up.  In addition, all the “alarms” or high and low voltage and open neutral features were superior to the “Surgeguard” that they had.

Some opted for the pedestal, but complained about having to secure it.  Several actually did what I did with my original pedestal Surgeguard….they installed a male and female 50 amp hookup…and plugged in the pedestal style….inside.  Dealer’s choice.

Your call….if you “loose” your ATS, then a simple combo of ESCO and Progressive, hardwired, with a remote will be much cheaper than a replacement Surgeguard….and with the remote…you have a good monitor…so the loss of the Aladdin should be a moot point.

If you have a high end pedestal, then, it appears from the reports….it will protect your present ATS.  Now…if it does not have the same features or rating as the Progressive….decide whether to peddle on ebay and upgrade to a Progressive….that is shat I did….and never regretred it for a moment.

IF….CRITICAL…your ATS does NOT have OPEN NEUTRAL protection or if your high end pedestal also does NOT have OPEN NEUTRAL…..then you are at risk.  My HW50C saved me.  We have had, recently a topic about damage….

 

 

[grizzly]

Tom, How good are southwire surge protectors? They are equal in price to progressive. Just wondering what people think between the 2. Ive had good luck with my southwire so far

[Tom Cherry]

36 minutes ago, grizzly said:

Tom, How good are southwire surge protectors? They are equal in price to progressive. Just wondering what people think between the 2. Ive had good luck with my southwire so far

That is for you to decide.  Get you part number.  Since there could be multiple models used, then write down or look at the "Specs".  If you see NOTHING about over/under voltage, Open Neutral, wiring errors.....then it is a plain Jane "surge".  Look at the Progressive HW50C.  Note the "Joules" of protection.  HIGHER is better.  Note the response time.  QUICKER is better.  

Next, look at your existing "High End".  Make up a table of all three....use the HW50C "Error Coder" as the parameters.  You may....or may NOT need to get another one.

The MAIN THING....you appear to want a primary "protector" and want to use the Southwire/Surgeguard as secondary.  Most folks on other forums chose the HW50C, either hardwired or pedestal as the Primary....to PROTECT the expensive Secondary.

Then, you can make a decision on what you need as Primary.....may have it already....but MOST folks said that the Surge Suppressor expensive ATS did not do the voltage protection of the Progressive.  It was the gold standard....as it has been since this forum began in the early days here and some of our founders helped develop and test it and I became friends with the founder.  SO, I may be prejudiced....

Looking at specs and making sure that you have PROTECTION for the most fundamental and also damaging parameters is FIRST....then surge...

Without knowing your model and specs, I can't do that.

[grizzly]

Tom, so mine is a southwire model 34950: joules is 4200 verse3580 for progressive. both have power surges, open ground, open neutral and reverse polarity protection and miswired pedastals. Southwire has constant led readout on it. I see Progressive has 1 nano sec response. Haven't been able to find the response time on the SouthwireIMG_0793.HEICIMG