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Old inverter circuits-rewiring


JDCrow
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Replacing our inverter, you can follow along in the mod section.

Question is on the feeds coming out of the old Xantrex. 
 

The coach manual states that one feed for microwave, and one is gfci. 
 

I was able to distinguish the two feeds, and was able to pull up the wire for the Microwave and can give it its own breaker in the panel. 
 

The other feed goes to the GFCI in the bathroom, and out from there, here’s my question, not having the coach long to test this  all out before 

 

Did these 2 circuits (feeds, loads) only come from the inverter? That is without the inverter breaker on, they have no way of getting electricity? 
 

I ask because I will have to feed down another piece of romex in conduit and a junction box in the bay where the old inverter was. 

 

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I'll try and help, but I'm not sure what exactly you are doing.  First, background on how Monaco installed the inverters.  From the early 2000's Monaco used an internal to the inverter transfer switch.  Don't confuse this with the main transfer switch that operates between the Generator and Shore Power.  Any AC circuits that will be powered by the inverter must pass through the inverter.  So, you likely have a 30 Amp Breaker in the Main Power Panel Labeled for Inverter.  This is the power to the inverter.  It is the power that will run the battery charger when shore (or Gen) power is available, and the power that will be supported by the inverter.  This is typically a microwave oven and outlets.  In higher end coaches, (Dynasty and above for sure - don't know about Camelot's and Windsor's) the inverter output goes to an Inverter Sub-Panel with breakers for multiple circuits.   From you description, you do not have that sub-panel.  In your case, you have one output going to the microwave, and another going to outlets.  The outlet string first goes to a GFCI outlet, usually in the bathroom.  When you have shore power, the power going into the inverter is routed to the output of the inverter, in a "pass-thru" mode.  When you loose shore power (or gen power), the inverter senses that, and automatically switches the output of the inverter from shore power to the inverter power generated from the battery.  If the circuits to be supplied by the inverter didn't run through the inverter, there would be no way to connect them to the inverter when shore power was lost.  

Now, on to your questions. You say you identified the microwave circuit (wires) and and can give it its own breaker in the panel?  What panel?  The main power panel?  If you pulled it away from the inverter, there is no longer a way for the inverter to power the microwave.  Is this your intention?  You can do it, but you can no longer run the microwave off the inverter.  Maybe I don't understand.  Yes, the other feed goes to the GFCI in the bathroom, and then out to the other outlets that run off the inverter.

I think I covered the question, but to be sure, yes, those two feeds only come from the inverter, but there is also a feed from the main power panel into the inverter that powers those circuits when on shore (gen) power.  You ask "without the inverter breaker on..."  do you mean the circuit breaker (30 Amps) in the Main Power Panel labeled "Inverter"?  If you do, then yes, you still will get electricity, IF the inverter switch is turned on.  The inverter will sense no Shore Power, and automatically switch to inverter mode supplying inverter power from the batteries. 

It would be helpful to know exactly what you are trying to accomplish by rewiring the inverter.  Are you simply trying to replace the old, bad, inverter?  Or, are you trying to do an update to a more powerful inverter?  The later is more involved than many realize.  Often the supply circuit wires from the Power Panel has to be increased to power the new "stuff" you will be connecting to the larger inverter.  In my case I have a 50 Amp circuit and wiring going to my 3000 PSW inverter.  Then you will likely need a sub-panel to connect the additional circuits that the larger inverter will be powering since they were wired for less power.  

If you let me know why you are doing this, and what you hope to achieve, I would be better able to advise you.

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4 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

I'll try and help, but I'm not sure what exactly you are doing.  First, background on how Monaco installed the inverters.  From the early 2000's Monaco used an internal to the inverter transfer switch.  Don't confuse this with the main transfer switch that operates between the Generator and Shore Power.  Any AC circuits that will be powered by the inverter must pass through the inverter.  So, you likely have a 30 Amp Breaker in the Main Power Panel Labeled for Inverter.  This is the power to the inverter.  It is the power that will run the battery charger when shore (or Gen) power is available, and the power that will be supported by the inverter.  This is typically a microwave oven and outlets.  In higher end coaches, (Dynasty and above for sure - don't know about Camelot's and Windsor's) the inverter output goes to an Inverter Sub-Panel with breakers for multiple circuits.   From you description, you do not have that sub-panel.  In your case, you have one output going to the microwave, and another going to outlets.  The outlet string first goes to a GFCI outlet, usually in the bathroom.  When you have shore power, the power going into the inverter is routed to the output of the inverter, in a "pass-thru" mode.  When you loose shore power (or gen power), the inverter senses that, and automatically switches the output of the inverter from shore power to the inverter power generated from the battery.  If the circuits to be supplied by the inverter didn't run through the inverter, there would be no way to connect them to the inverter when shore power was lost.  

Now, on to your questions. You say you identified the microwave circuit (wires) and and can give it its own breaker in the panel?  What panel?  The main power panel?  If you pulled it away from the inverter, there is no longer a way for the inverter to power the microwave.  Is this your intention?  You can do it, but you can no longer run the microwave off the inverter.  Maybe I don't understand.  Yes, the other feed goes to the GFCI in the bathroom, and then out to the other outlets that run off the inverter.

I think I covered the question, but to be sure, yes, those two feeds only come from the inverter, but there is also a feed from the main power panel into the inverter that powers those circuits when on shore (gen) power.  You ask "without the inverter breaker on..."  do you mean the circuit breaker (30 Amps) in the Main Power Panel labeled "Inverter"?  If you do, then yes, you still will get electricity, IF the inverter switch is turned on.  The inverter will sense no Shore Power, and automatically switch to inverter mode supplying inverter power from the batteries. 

It would be helpful to know exactly what you are trying to accomplish by rewiring the inverter.  Are you simply trying to replace the old, bad, inverter?  Or, are you trying to do an update to a more powerful inverter?  The later is more involved than many realize.  Often the supply circuit wires from the Power Panel has to be increased to power the new "stuff" you will be connecting to the larger inverter.  In my case I have a 50 Amp circuit and wiring going to my 3000 PSW inverter.  Then you will likely need a sub-panel to connect the additional circuits that the larger inverter will be powering since they were wired for less power.  

If you let me know why you are doing this, and what you hope to achieve, I would be better able to advise you.

Thanks very much, you hit it out of the park.

Sorry it’s brief here on this thread. I didn’t want to rehash and bore people with my remodel. 
 

Yes I’m upgrading the inverter. I’m running the power into the new inverter, then up to the panel. The microwave wire (romex) I was able to pull up and will put in a dedicated breaker for it, replacing the inverter breaker. 
 

The other run, the GFIC I will put in a breaker for and fish romex back down to it and have a junction box in the old location as seen in the pic. 
 Here is a few quick pics of the work.

And thanks very much for hour help 

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F3B836A7-E388-46E0-A48D-A3CA2B43BE6C.jpeg

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I think you are saying you removed the (or will remove) the Inverter Circuit Breaker and replace it with the Microwave Circuit Breaker.  I don't think it's that simple.  If you remove the Inverter Circuit Breaker, how will you get power from the breaker panel to the inverter - it must be protected by a circuit breaker.  If you are removing the Inverter CB to make room, they have 1/2 size breaker made just for that.  Do you intend to run the microwave only on shore (gen) power?  It is against all codes to have two different sources of AC inside the same power panel (i.e., Shore power and Inverter power).  Someone could kill the incoming shore power breaker and think the box is unpowered, only to find that the inverter powered up and there are other hot breakers in the box and electrocute him.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you are referring to in the pic.  

If I'm understanding you correctly, you should leave the Inverter CB in place, use the wire from it to the new inverter, and then, the output of the inverter should then go to a smaller sub-panel with just a few (maybe only 2, one for the microwave and another for the GFCI outlets) Circuit Breakers.  This second, smaller sub-panel when wired as described is often call an "inveter sub-panel" since only inverter circuits are contained within it.

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1 hour ago, waterskier_1 said:

I think you are saying you removed the (or will remove) the Inverter Circuit Breaker and replace it with the Microwave Circuit Breaker.  I don't think it's that simple.  If you remove the Inverter Circuit Breaker, how will you get power from the breaker panel to the inverter - it must be protected by a circuit breaker.  If you are removing the Inverter CB to make room, they have 1/2 size breaker made just for that.  Do you intend to run the microwave only on shore (gen) power?  It is against all codes to have two different sources of AC inside the same power panel (i.e., Shore power and Inverter power).  Someone could kill the incoming shore power breaker and think the box is unpowered, only to find that the inverter powered up and there are other hot breakers in the box and electrocute him.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you are referring to in the pic.  

If I'm understanding you correctly, you should leave the Inverter CB in place, use the wire from it to the new inverter, and then, the output of the inverter should then go to a smaller sub-panel with just a few (maybe only 2, one for the microwave and another for the GFCI outlets) Circuit Breakers.  This second, smaller sub-panel when wired as described is often call an "inveter sub-panel" since only inverter circuits are contained within it.

Sorry to be confusing, trying to not repost a bunch. 
 

New inverter. I removed shore power from panel, ran it to new inverter. Running power back to panel. New inverter is Multiplus 2. It is pass through when on shore/Gen. 
 

Can boost 15/20/30 amp input with battery boost to run heavier loads. 
 

Here is a diagram of what I’m shooting for. No solar yet 

 

 

C9F7CAA9-2D53-495D-98CA-7646A19766D4.png

Edited by JDCrow
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If you are wiring as the drawing shows with 100% of all AC sources passing through the inverter to the original panel there is no need for a sub panel. There is also no need to separate outlets and microwave from the original panel. You also need to run AWG 6 from the transfer switch all the way through. 

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10 minutes ago, Bob Blackmon said:

If you are wiring as the drawing shows with 100% of all AC sources passing through the inverter to the original panel there is no need for a sub panel. There is also no need to separate outlets and microwave from the original panel. You also need to run AWG 6 from the transfer switch all the way through. 

Yep #6 the whole way. 
 

The Microwave and GFIC circuits were not in my original panel, I have to give them breakers as they were on the inverter originally.  The inverter breaker slot in the panel will now be for the microwave, and I’m ditching the block heater outlet and giving that breaker slot to the GFIC run. 
 

I was hoping to not have to fish a wire down to the bay to pick up the GFIC run, but it has to be done. 
 

Thanks for you help 

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15 hours ago, JDCrow said:

Sorry to be confusing, trying to not repost a bunch. 
 

New inverter. I removed shore power from panel, ran it to new inverter. Running power back to panel. New inverter is Multiplus 2. It is pass through when on shore/Gen. 
 

Can boost 15/20/30 amp input with battery boost to run heavier loads. 
 

Here is a diagram of what I’m shooting for. No solar yet 

 

 

C9F7CAA9-2D53-495D-98CA-7646A19766D4.png

I see what you want to do now.  But I'm wondering if you have taken many things into consideration by doing this.  First, I have a Victron System with a 3K MultiPlus (not the 2), along with 3 Victron MPPT solar controller, CCGX display, BMV-702 Battery Monitor, and other associated equipment.  

1.  Victron and Code requires a "The AC input must be protected by a fuse or magnetic circuit breaker rated at 32 A( for 3 kVA model)".  I believe the newer MultiPlus2 is upgraded to 50A.  Check the serial number of your MultiPlus2 You don't show any CB between the main line in (after the transfer switch).

2. You show split phase coming out of the inverter to the power panel.  It really is two separate 115 VAC output - One Inverter and the other Non-Inverted.  I'm not 100% sure you can mix the two in the same power panel.  But lets assume you decide to do so.  I'm assuming that you then plan to connect the same microwave and GFIC outlet string to the Inverted output.  What else?  The sum of all you connect can not exceed the 50 Amp rating of the inverter.  The rest of the circuits, Front & Rear A/C, Bedroom Outlets (not inverted), Block Heater, Water Heater.  You may choose to move the Refrigerator non-inverted power to inverted, but I think you already have an inverted Ice Maker outlet at the refrigerator.  The same with your washer/dryer.  Mine is connected to the inverter, but I know to never try using the dryer when on inverter.  The best policy would be not to put it on the inverter side.

So, after adding a Main Circuit Breaker panel between the transfer switch and the inverter, you would run the wiring from the transfer switch thru that Main CB panel to the inverter.  That would require 6 gauge wire.  Then from the inverter to the existing Power Panel, you need two runs of #6 cables.  One for Inverter Output 1 (which will be inverted) and another for Inverter Output 2 (non inverted).  I would use the 50 Amp main breaker if it can be "split" into two separate breakers, or replaced with to separate 50 Amp breakers to protect the inverter outputs.  Then you need to pull new wires (or maybe existing) for the microwave 20 Amp circuit, and the GFCI Outlet 20 Amp circuit.  I think you said you already pulled the Microwave circuit to the Power panel.  You might be able to use the existing #10 gauge wire that used to feed the inverter input to tie to the GFCI Outlet circuit in a junction box.  That would save having to run additional wires. New 20 Amp Circuit Breaker for those circuits need to be added to that breaker panel.  It is acceptable to use a 20 Amp CB with #10 wire.  

Now if you are intending to connect one the A/Cs to the inverter, that might work, as long as you don't have the microwave running, or turn on a coffee maker or hair dryer.  

I'm not clear the purpose of running 12 VDC into the RV Breaker Panel.  Are you planning on using Load Shedding or other EMS in the breaker panel?

You'll likely have to rewire the 12 VDC side to account for the additional power the inverter will consume. 

 

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17 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

I see what you want to do now.  But I'm wondering if you have taken many things into consideration by doing this.  First, I have a Victron System with a 3K MultiPlus (not the 2), along with 3 Victron MPPT solar controller, CCGX display, BMV-702 Battery Monitor, and other associated equipment.  

1.  Victron and Code requires a "The AC input must be protected by a fuse or magnetic circuit breaker rated at 32 A( for 3 kVA model)".  I believe the newer MultiPlus2 is upgraded to 50A.  Check the serial number of your MultiPlus2 You don't show any CB between the main line in (after the transfer switch).

2. You show split phase coming out of the inverter to the power panel.  It really is two separate 115 VAC output - One Inverter and the other Non-Inverted.  I'm not 100% sure you can mix the two in the same power panel.  But lets assume you decide to do so.  I'm assuming that you then plan to connect the same microwave and GFIC outlet string to the Inverted output.  What else?  The sum of all you connect can not exceed the 50 Amp rating of the inverter.  The rest of the circuits, Front & Rear A/C, Bedroom Outlets (not inverted), Block Heater, Water Heater.  You may choose to move the Refrigerator non-inverted power to inverted, but I think you already have an inverted Ice Maker outlet at the refrigerator.  The same with your washer/dryer.  Mine is connected to the inverter, but I know to never try using the dryer when on inverter.  The best policy would be not to put it on the inverter side.

So, after adding a Main Circuit Breaker panel between the transfer switch and the inverter, you would run the wiring from the transfer switch thru that Main CB panel to the inverter.  That would require 6 gauge wire.  Then from the inverter to the existing Power Panel, you need two runs of #6 cables.  One for Inverter Output 1 (which will be inverted) and another for Inverter Output 2 (non inverted).  I would use the 50 Amp main breaker if it can be "split" into two separate breakers, or replaced with to separate 50 Amp breakers to protect the inverter outputs.  Then you need to pull new wires (or maybe existing) for the microwave 20 Amp circuit, and the GFCI Outlet 20 Amp circuit.  I think you said you already pulled the Microwave circuit to the Power panel.  You might be able to use the existing #10 gauge wire that used to feed the inverter input to tie to the GFCI Outlet circuit in a junction box.  That would save having to run additional wires. New 20 Amp Circuit Breaker for those circuits need to be added to that breaker panel.  It is acceptable to use a 20 Amp CB with #10 wire.  

Now if you are intending to connect one the A/Cs to the inverter, that might work, as long as you don't have the microwave running, or turn on a coffee maker or hair dryer.  

I'm not clear the purpose of running 12 VDC into the RV Breaker Panel.  Are you planning on using Load Shedding or other EMS in the breaker panel?

You'll likely have to rewire the 12 VDC side to account for the additional power the inverter will consume. 

 

So now you went and blew my mind. I’ll have to re read your post and try and decipher it. 
 

My understanding is the Multiplus 2 is 100% pass though (2 120 legs) when on shore power. On inverter. It will send power on just 1 leg of 120. So we know our limits when on the inverter. 
 

Beyond that, I’m fresh out of ideas and will post follow up in the mod section. 
 

Thanks again very much. It sounds like you have a great set up! I hope to have a good system Myself 

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8 minutes ago, JDCrow said:

So now you went and blew my mind. I’ll have to re read your post and try and decipher it. 
 

My understanding is the Multiplus 2 is 100% pass though (2 120 legs) when on shore power. On inverter. It will send power on just 1 leg of 120. So we know our limits when on the inverter. 
 

Beyond that, I’m fresh out of ideas and will post follow up in the mod section. 
 

Thanks again very much. It sounds like you have a great set up! I hope to have a good system Myself 

Your understanding is correct, the MultiPlus2 is 100% pass through on shore power. I'm not sure what blew your mind, other than you need a CB before the inverter so you can shut power off to it, and protect both it and the wiring in case something goes wrong.

 

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2 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Your understanding is correct, the MultiPlus2 is 100% pass through on shore power. I'm not sure what blew your mind, other than you need a CB before the inverter so you can shut power off to it, and protect both it and the wiring in case something goes wrong.

 

All good, just a long post so I need to digest. In all honestly, I’m not experienced in this and learning as I go. Lots on here are super sharp, and I have to slow down and read what is posted. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, johncvandoren@gmail.com said:

Separate related question: how do you access the cable run from the main breaker panel to the inverter?  In my 06 Knight, the panel is above the laundry near the road side in the rear bathroom, and the inverter is in the rear curb-side cubby.

So on our Dip, there is romex wiring coming down from the panel to the inverter, and then 2 romex going back up to microwave and then GFIC outlet in the bathroom. 
 

There is a small sleeve that runs up from bay to the wall, from there it’s open and wire goes where it needs to 

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2 hours ago, JDCrow said:

So on our Dip, there is romex wiring coming down from the panel to the inverter, and then 2 romex going back up to microwave and then GFIC outlet in the bathroom. 
 

There is a small sleeve that runs up from bay to the wall, from there it’s open and wire goes where it needs to 

Thanks, where is it “open”?  I can see where it goes into the tube up from cubby into the outer wall, but cannot find the path from there to the breaker panel.

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12 minutes ago, johncvandoren@gmail.com said:

Thanks, where is it “open”?  I can see where it goes into the tube up from cubby into the outer wall, but cannot find the path from there to the breaker panel.

Sure, so I was able to “grab” the wires behind the cable plate in the TV cubby. From there it’s a straight shot down. You’ll have to tug a bit to break through the foam used.

The bigger hole is there when I took the panel out to see where things go, to give you an idea what’s back there. 8CD5587E-B1B6-441D-A45E-AB79B74968DF.thumb.jpeg.beacca9b616d6af231cea33410fa4388.jpeg

3CCCAC93-A3AD-4D01-8D74-91CDB9B71E89.jpeg

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