waterskier_1

18 hours ago, Gbracer said:

the relay that runs the dash light is a 6v coil original equipment , when the alt is replaced quite common for the signal to be 12v you need to change the relay to the dash light to 12v coil 

This is wrong.  Yes the relay is 6 volt DC, but must NOT be changed or the system will not work correctly.  The only way the "signal" could be 12 Volts is if the alternator's Voltage Regulator went bad and the output of the alternator was berated than 20 Volts, which would likely damage the batteries.  The "signal" is actually one of the 3 field winding taps.  These type of alternator's are 3-phase AC (hence which the term alternator,  not generator) and that AC tap voltage, when applied to the relay, enables the ALT-FAIL circuit.  If you don't want to wire it correctly, or don't want to buy the correct replacement alternator, then just remove that 6-volt relay, and the ALT-FAIL light will never come on.   No need to buy a relay that will keep it from ever coming on. 

  - Rick N 

That is an awesome price.  

  -Rick N

48 minutes ago, Bill R said:

OK, Splice is made and power to slide out outlets from the inverter now all good!  I really liked using the WAGO Lever connectors.  See pic below.  Made it clean and secure when combining solid and stranded copper wires. 

I decided not to, maybe to some folks disagreement, install a JB.  Just no real place for it, very tight,  and I do not think it is necessary.  Wrapped each connector with electrical tape. then wrapped all three connectors together securely with electrical tape into one bundle, and tie wrapped to other bundles.  All very nice and clean.

Now I am pondering if I want to disconnect the wire from the inverter going to the microwave and connect it to the wire coming from the 120V panel 20A breaker that was going to the non inverted outlets of the slide out.  These are all in the same area and easily could be done.  Just not sure if I am ready to lose the function of the microwave on battery power.  Although I never do use it that way.  And changing it would keep it from happening when DW forgets when we are not on shore power.

Have I talked myself into yet?

 

The primary reason for a Junction Box is to protect the connections (besides being a requirement in non-RV).  It allows not only for a place for the connectors to reside, but an easy to identify location for anyone else working on the coach.  If I, for example, didn't know you patch the wires, and then "hid" them, I'd not know to check there for a likely problem, or at least an easy to reach intermediary point to check/troubleshoot.  That said, it's your coach, and I am not aware of any violation of code.  FIY - there is "Code" requirements for low voltage (l.e., 12 volts) wiring in an RV, but not for 120 VAC.

The choice is yours regarding rewiring the microwave.  All that will happen is you'll trip the breaker on your inverter if you or wife forgets.

  -Rick N 

Are you certain that it came with a screen?  My old Dynasty (1997) had a screen there.  When I bought my 05 Exec, it did not.  I glanced at the window frame, and didn't notice a "track" for it, so just assumed it didn't come with one.  Now I'll have to take a closer look at mine.  I rarely open it - just for toll booths and getting directions when I am parking the coach at a resort or rally.

  -Rick N.

2 hours ago, Bigdogracing said:

Hello-

 

We have a new to us 2013 Monaco Diplomat. We have always use the generator for power since we have had it. We had a 30 amp plug wired at our home to keep at least the basement heater on to keep from freezing etc. Anyway, the coach doesn’t seem to be getting any shore power- the display show no power source when plugged in to 30 amp or reduced further down to 110 which we tried to see if it was our 30 amp extension cord. Neither work. Everything works on generator without issues. There are no breakers on the inverter itself which is a MagnaSine or the transfer switch and upon quick glance, no other breakers or fuses appear to be out.  We did replace the transfer switch and no luck there.  Called dealership and they said it could be the fuses on the CONVERTER- not inverter. Although I cannot find nothing about a converter in the manual either.  Anyone know where that is located on a 2013 Diplomat? They said behind the breaker box but that is above the driver seat and we removed the cover and did not see the box he was describing…. Thanks in advance for any help.
By the way, we did do our best to look at where the 50 amp cord connects to the reel and there is a junction box of sorts- it is very hard to access but the cord feels secure and not loose… ?

Any help would be appreciated.  Thank you!

What voltage is the 30 amp plug you had wired to your home?  I ask  because you post "the display show no power source when plugged in to 30 amp or reduced further down to 110 which we tried to see if it was our 30 amp extension cord."  The 30 Amp should also be 110 Volts.  Did someone mistakenly add a 30 Amp 220 Volt (like used for electric dryers)?  If so, that is a problem.  If you were meaning reduced down to a 15 or 20 Amp plug, then that is fine.

I would first start by finding someone with a voltmeter that has experience working around 110 volts.  Have him start at the new pedestal outlet you had wired and confirm that you have 110 volts.  Then move to the end of the power cord, if possible, and measure the voltage there.  Many of these problems are caused by a bad plug on the end of the power cable, or bad extension cables, plugs, and outlets.  The next stop would be the transfer switch.  Do you have 110 volts there?  You won't have 220, since you only have a 30 amp circuit installed, but you should still have 110 volts between each hot leg and neutral.  If good there, check the output of the transfer switch.  Is the power getting through the transfer switch?  If not, something is wrong with the transfer switch or the wiring. From the output of the transfer switch to the main breaker panel and beyond are not suspect, because all that is common to the generator which you claim works.

Post back your results and we can assist further.

  -Rick N.

6 hours ago, jacwjames said:

I installed a 3/4" conduit between the chassis rails to run wire for fuel pressure gauge and other stuff.  I started from the front, there were holes already cut into the cross members where other wire and hosing/pipe were run.  My generator slides out which gave me room to work, guided the first 10' piece through the opening across the top of the fuel tank.  Was able to help it across.  Added a second piece as needed.  Had to drop the ceiling in my first basement compartment and had to help the conduit through that area, there are bundles of wire and pipe that are secured back through there.  I do not have a passenger side slide which made it easier.  Continued pushing the conduit back and hit another obstacle but this time I was able to go through the open ceiling in the small bay where my inverter is, felt around and found the end of the conduit and was able to pull it across that bay and then across the wet bay water tanks.  It day lighted with the rest of the wiring right in front of the rear axle. 

I was able to pull the first wire and then later pulled 5 more wires, needed one but now have 4 spares.

I just got done running a new WeBoost antenna wire from the front TV cabinet back to satellite dish, previous owner had installed a wire for a 3G antenna but the newer ones use a different wire.  For a small job it was a pain.  On the side of the AC duct work there was a void but already had wires/cable already in it, made it hard to get a snake through there.  I had to take out 2 ceiling lights to for access, previous owner had already done that and punched holes through the thin plywood.  This only provided a small hole to work through on the outside of the duct work.  Was able to get the new antenna wire pulled to the first ceiling light but then it was a struggle to get it the rest of the ~2.5' into the TV cabinet but finally got it done. ~8' distance took 4 hours.  

Going front to back through the AC duct work, if it is a straight shot front to back, would probably be the easiest but you have to first get a wire the front and rear ends of the duct work.  BUT I know that at the front end there is a 2X4 running side to side so a hole would have to be drilled through it with limited access.  But if you take the ceiling lights out and start from there it might be the easiest route through the duct work.  Then go through the AC return vent and cut a hole there to get extra access.  In the bedroom you'd have to get access to the duct work.  I know mine goes to the rear closet, not sure of your layout.  Once back there I'd an easy run to my rear TV location. 

They don't make anything easy on trying to work on these monsters. 

I've done the same on some coaches, but the difficulty for me is how to properly route it over the drive shaft, the tag axle, and through the engine compartment.  I haven't found a nice way to do that.  

  -Rick N.

18 hours ago, Bill R said:

I recently did a receiver upgrade and discovered as @waterskier_1 pointed out that the OEM subwoofer would not work because the sub output of the receiver was not amplified.  I decided to purchase a powered subwoofer that fit in the same cabinet as the OEM sub.  More $$'s but it sounds great.  If you go this route you will have to provide 120V power.  This was not a problem in my situation as I had an outlet nearby mounted in the same cabinet as the sub.

I chose another option.  I got a Marantz Thin Line A/V receiver (thin, height-wise).  It was a 7.1-channel amp, but I only needed 5.1-channels for the surround sound.  I used one of the unused surround channels to drive the sub-woofer.  Another option would be to purchase an inexpensive sub amp marketed for auto stereo business.  It doesn't have to have a gazzion watts, at least for most of us.  We aren't trying to rock the coach  :).  

  -Rick N.

If you look at the top of the cabinet, that black plastic vent is an A/C vent.  It is connected to the A/C duct that runs from the front to the rear bedroom. I used that as my "entry point" to the ductwork.  I took each ceiling vent off so I could pull/push the cable along the ductwork.  Then you have to be a bit more creative to get the cable out of the duct in the bedroom, and over to the TV area.  

  - Rick N 

I've run Cat 6 ethernet and coaxial cables from the from the Entertainment cabinets (one above the dash & the other above the passenger sear) back to the rear bedroom TV cabinet.  On both cases I ran through the A/C ductwork.  I took out lights and speakers to facilitate getting the cables into & out of the ductwork.  In both cases I had to puncture the duct wall "cardboard" and then patch it with duct tape. 

I've ran a small coax cable down the drivers side A-pillar from a Sirius roof antenna to the dash.  That pillar is stuffed full of wires & cables; I could barely get the cover back on again (just Velcro).  I'll try the passenger side if I need to run cables again. 

  -Rick N 

The subwoofer output of this receiver is not amplified.  The subwoofer Monaco installed is likely not powered.  This means that you will have to install some sort of amplifier between the receiver and the subwoofer.  

  -Rick N.

I've reviewed this product's predecessor.  I discussed the apparent failing with the engineers.  I was told that that previous version was not a "charger" and only "combined" the battery banks.  I believe there have been some attempts to improve with this release, but it still need much improvement.  

A BIM is a "Battery Isolation Manager".  Monaco use their Solid State Isolator in the early days (late '70's into the early 90's), then went with the IRD (Isolator Relay Delay) and BIRD (a Bi-Directional IRD).  The delay comes from the fact that Monaco didn't want the batteries immediately connected right after engine start, but want a delay to allow the alternator to replenish the chassis battery and engine to "warm up".  Then it would connect the two banks to the alternator.  They would stay connected together as long as long as the engine was running.  The alternator is not a smart charger.  It only has a Voltage Regulator, that is preset to 14.2 - 14.4 volts.  It will do all it can to maintain that voltage.  If the load is too great, the alternator output (voltage) wil decrease.  This is usually only seen after dry camping and the coach batteries are very depleted.  Other than that case, the alternator output is 14.2 - 14.4 volts constantly, it doesn't know or care about the State of Charge (SOC) of the batteries.  So, if you are taking an 8 hour trip, it's possible that your house batteries (and the chassis batteries) are being charged for 8 hours at 14.4 volts.  This is not good for any battery's life, but Lead Acid, particularly Flooded Lead Acid (FLA), can tolerate it.  AGM don't fair quite so good, but most won't notice the difference.  Now enter the Lithium, specifically Lithium Lead Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries.  There are two problems.  One is that they HATE being held at a high voltage once they are charged.  Second is they can accept a higher rate of charge by at least 10 time than what Lead Acid batteries can.  This has to do with a significantly lower internal resistance.  I'll leave it at that for this response.  If you desire more info on this, let me know.  Based on the above, users and manufacturers recognized the need to address these issues.  When these batteries first came out, and no other provisions were made, owners experienced failures - either the isolator components because they were not designed to handle the much higher current (mostly the solid state devices) or the alternators were destroyed, attempting to supply 10 times the current they were designed for.  So, some enterprising companies are now attempting to respond to these problems. 

As I mentioned above, I evaluated the previous version of this device.  I found the description lacking, from an engineering/design point of view.  So I called and talked to engineers.  That device, was designed to connect the batteries when conditions (one or more batteries were being charged, the voltage was less than 15.5 volts on both banks and the house battery was 0.2 volts or more below chassis battery.  As I recall, that version was not Bi-Directional, but in any case, the problems are really only when the alternator is the charging source.  The Inverter/Charger is a Smart Charger, and doesn't have those problems.  Once connected, it would remain connected for 15 minutes.  Then it would wait 15 minutes and reevaluate the conditions to determine if it would connect again for another 15 minutes.  It would continue this cycle until the engine was shut off, or the house battery came within 0.2 volts of the chassis, or either of the batteries exceeded 15.5 volts.

I had two primary concerns.  The first being how the 15 minutes was determined.  They didn't know, but guess that the alternator would not overheat and destroy itself within those 15 minutes.  I'm not convinced.  My second concern was charging profile.  They admitted there was no charge profile, it was not a smart charger, other than it would disconnect the house batteries within 15 minutes of them becoming within 0.2 volts of the chassis battery (bassically greater than 14.0 volts).

Now on to this new one.  I have has several clients ask about it.  I have not done a review other than to read the promotional brochure (they don't publish any specifications, and I haven't called to talk to anyone).  The new one is a bit more vague, but it clearly identifies that it is Bi-Directional (will allow connecting the chassis batteries when the inverter/charger is working.  It claims to "monitor the voltage of both .... over long periods of time", but I don't know what the voltage will tell them, nor how stores and uses the "over long periods of time" data.  It also states that if "the charging system is drastically overburdened" the batteries will be isolated.  But it doesn't define how it senses this and what the parameters (i.e., > 100 Amps) defines "overburdened".  I'm sure this is response to the previous version not taking into consideration any burden, but "hoping" that it wouldn't destroy anything during the 15 minute connection period.  They also state "if the Li-BIM sees a long-term charging of both batteries it will allow the batteries to remain connected and allow the charging system to do its job".  That's some word salad there.  My take away is that they no longer use a predefined guess of 15 minutes, but as long as it's not overburdened, it will keep the batteries connected.  I don't think it can really tell if there is charging going on.  It doesn't have any control of voltage or current.  The alternator still sets the voltage, and the batteries (and any loads connected to them - headlights, refrigerators, etc - sets the current.  It can open the house battery connection and stop all charging - that's it.  Now, after an hour, it will isolate the batteries to prevent overcharging (how did the one hour come into play?  Likely another guess), and will only reconnect "if one of the batteries drops to approximately 80% charge".  Based upon the connections to the device, they have no way of determining the State Of Charge.  They can only measure the voltage of the batteries under some load, which they don't know.  I suspect they have just programmed a guestimate voltage in to say the batteries are charged.  

This version has addressed, but not satisfactorily, the concerns I related to the engineer relative to the previous version.  It still isn't a smart charger.  It can't determine the state of charge or apply an appropriate charge profile (Bulk, Absorption, Float).  I don't know how it knows and handles "overburdened" alternator current draw.  But I will also state that I don't know of a device similar that does the job. 

What I have done is to completely (and permanently) isolated the chassis system and alternator charging for the house system and the inverter/charger.  The alternator only charges the chassis battery and only works when the main engine is running (obviously).  It does not charge the house batteries.  The house batteries are charged by the inverter/charger when or shore power, or the generator.  This does not directly charge the chassis battery.  I have installed, but have not found the need to connect, a stand only battery maintainer that plugs into the block heater which could be enabled to charge the chassis battery when the inverter/charger is powered.  I also have 1400 Watts of solar on the roof.  I used to original Monaco 100 Watt panel just for the chassis battery through its own MPPT controller.  This was a result of not finding any panels that could be use in combination with that panel, so deployed it to the chassis battery instead of simply removing it.  The other 1300 Watts are used to charge/maintain the house batteries though two MPPT controllers.  The MPPT controllers are smart chargers that can be programmed to Bulk, Absorption, and Float, just like the inverter/charger.  I've only had a couple times when the solar didn't keep up.  One time was a snow storm last year where we got over 8" of snow and it didn't get above freezing for a week and I was out of town so I couldn't plug it in.  The other time was when the repair (body) shop didn't turn off the battery disconnect switches and it was inside for over 10 days.  In both cases, the engine generator started up and charged up the house batteries.  The chassis battery didn't discharge in that short period of time. 

Sorry about the long post but I've had a lot of people bring this to my attention, and I have discouraged them from purchasing.  After understanding there concerns and requirements, I've provided alternative solutions.

  -Rick N.

Since you have a propane refrigerator, only the ice maker should be powered off the inverter, and the GFCI breaker.  The "heater elements" of the refrigerator should be feed by a separate breaker on the main power panel.  The rationale is that when you lose shore (or generator) power the refrigerator will know this and automatically switch to propane (unless it was manually set to propane).  The GFCI outlet only should power the ice maker, which allows you to harvest ice when not shore power is available.  

I would start by unplugging everything that is on the GFCI loop.  Check to see if it still trips.  If it does, and you are confident everything is unplugged, then I'd replace the GFCI breaker.  If it doesn't trip, I'd start plugging those items I unplugged, one at a time, until I found the culprit.

  -Rick N. 

26 minutes ago, FLynes said:

Yeah, no worries. If you're interested, here's the link to the origin of the Monroney: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroney_sticker

Yes,  i Googled it when I first read your post.  I've never heard a Dealer call it that before.  I can quit reading now - I've learned something this week already. 

8 minutes ago, FLynes said:

Both my Monroney (what Paul wrote Monaco calls it) and my Data Card (as written on the sheet by Monaco, but Build Sheet as I call it) were in my plastic folder box. Here are the scanned sheets. I blacked out the key codes, for obvious reasons.

5B4MPA7G453398606 Monroney.pdf 3.79 MB · 2 downloads 5B4MPA7G453398606 Data Card.pdf 4.2 MB · 2 downloads

This is so interesting.  I've been working off-on in my Dad's auto sales business for years.  I've never heard the word Monroney before.  We always called it the Window Sticker.  We didn't call it Retail Price, since that is the price the vehicle sold for - just "sticker price".  I'll remember this for the future.  I do have such a document, but the original paper one glued to the window, but a PDF, that I'm not sure if is a scan/photo or original.  I never examined it.  I only reviewed it to see what options/changes to the standard equipment was on the coach.  

Thanks for enlightening me.

  -Rick N.

38 minutes ago, Paul J A said:

The " Build Sheet" and the Coach " Data Cards " are two entirely different documents.

 

Attached are  " ACTUAL " examples of EACH acquired from REV. 

1RF17561571045185 MSRP.pdf 37.83 kB · 6 downloads 1RF17561571045185 Data Card.pdf 37.92 kB · 4 downloads

Paul, what you are calling a "build sheet" is what may of us are calling the "window sticker" since it is often posted in the window of new vehicles.  I guess we need to be more specific when discussing these documents.  The "data card" is clearly marked as such.  The other document has not "title" or "description".  I've always thought when people would ask what Rear Axle or What Hydraulic Pump was used to "build" their coach, they were asking for the Manufacturer or the Part Number.  The the price (if an option) or if it was included (as standard equipment) since they were looking for detail info.  

Next time someone mentions "build sheet" I'll make sure to have them specify what they are looking for.  As far a I know, Monaco never posted (other on the window) the document you call the "build sheet", and likely didn't make it into a documents folder to pass on to future owners.  And it's now unlikely the REV would have that document, as they tell me they are no longer maintaining data from MMC any longer.  They could not provide me with paint codes for my coach.  

  -Rick N.

The "build sheet" is suggest Monaco calls a "data card".  It lists most of the major components that went your specific coach.  Monaco hid them many different places - on the back walk of the rear closet,  the back of medicine cabinets....  It is a couple of 8" X 10" pieces of paper. 

  - Rick N 

Any good upholstery shop will have the basic "button" sans the vinyl.  They may have the vinyl in a close color, but slightly different grain that will work.  I paid less than $5 for 2 buttons - I supplied the vinyl. 

  - Rick N 

20 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

First…yes, if you start out, which I did not want to go that deep into, you can calculate the exact time for any depletion or run down.  It is in my Post.  The 25 Amp hour rating for a Trojan T105 is 447 minutes.  So if you reduce the amperage to 20 amps, that would be, I think a 20% increase…I MIGHT have used a different ratio. But then you would expect 536 minutes until full or zero depletion.  OK…say you want to stop at 60%.  Then 40% of 536 is 215.  You have two in series and two of those two in parallel,..thus you double the 215…or 430.  But you have to knock off 5% that the inverter uses….or 408 minutes.  My example was a 25% increase…so the logic is the same….just calculating the time.  Bottom line.  If you had a PURE 25 amp load, allowing for the 5% inverter parasitic drain, then the minutes until that SOC, based on the Rebound voltage is exactly how Trojan says to do the calculation.  I bounced this off others and yes, you can calculate how LONG the battery should last with a fixed or given load, within the manufacture’s parameters.  Trojan may use a % of capacity where LifeLine defines it.

Second.  Yes.  I did READ the passages that you posted.  I started to copy….but in reality, Trojan frowns HIGHLY and does NOT, on the phone, recommend, for our operating conditions where we keep a float charge on, EQUALIZATION.  They also commented that Magnum was “not correct” and that we, MH owners, would shorten the life.  NOW….are those tech support persons still there?  I didn’t record or get their names.

Bottom line, when one doesn’t have a shunt system, the  following Trojan’s advice and knowing the SOC of their battery is the best advice.

YES…a Hydrometer is great….and there are good ones.  But measuring voltage is easier and more accurate.  The OP wanted to know HOW to judge and doesn’t presumably have the Shunt system.

My advice was to exercise and maximize the batteries and get them back into shape.  Then measure and check the SOC….which is easy to do with nothing but a VOM…and then have him the “general” info on how folks without a Shunt system, but years of experience usually judge them.

Hope this explains the logic and also  my response to Ben.  As usual, when we have input  from a Manufacturer, we pass it on…plus look at what they publish as well as talk about why not one size fits all.  Magnum says their manuals are “guidelines” and the higher levels of understanding would be difficult to write or convey to their average customer…

 

Tom, I'll mention a couple of misconceptions it looks like you have.  First, the discharge time is NOT linear to discharge rate.  This is to say that a discharge of 50 Amp is not double the time that a discharge of 25 Amps.  Or, at a more extreme, the time to discharge at 1000 Amps is not 100 times the time do discharge at 10 Amps.  Most all documentation will explain this.  Yes, that might be getting in the weeds, and you may be using a rough estimate to get there, but why not use the proper methodology.  The second point is that the discharge curve at the same current is not linear.  That is to say that the amount of time it takes to discharge 10% from 100% to 90% is not the same time it takes do discharge 10% from 20% to 10% of battery capacity.  Nor is the top 50% time the same as the bottom 50% time.  Sure, your methodology does provide some level of condition, within maybe 20% or actual value, which is plenty good to sort out dead or very bad batteries.  But it does not yield accurate (or even as accurate as we can reasonably get in a field test on our coach batteries) result.  

A clarification on the procedure.  If you do decide to use the inverter to drive a 110 VAC load, then you measure the INPUT to the inverter, not some output which might include parasitic loads (and inefficiencies of the inverter itself).  You would (or should) measure the TOTAL current being drawn from the battery.  That should make sense?  I did this with a shunt in the negative battery lead, but you could simply use an accurate DC clamp-on Ammeter.  This can be done with either a direct DC Load or using the inverter to supply an AC load.  The idea is to create a 25 Amp load on the battery - without regard as to what might be causing it.  Again, I want to stress this is a LOAD TEST to determine the Capacity of the battery.  This is not designed to relate some state of charge to voltage or an intermediate % of charge.  

Okay, I know you have talked to a lot of technical people at a lot of manufacturers.  I don't have that time to call all of them.  I must rely on Manufacturer's Published Documentation, not hearsay.  Let me be clear, I do not doubt in the least that you were told many things.  But I have been too, and sometimes they are completely wrong, or the question or answer misunderstood, because the other person "thinks" he knows what is being asked/answered.  I propose that if the reader finds a totally opposite direction from tech support than what is published, then it's up to the reader to investigate further.  I have no doubts that, regarding equalization, there are many misused procedures causing problems.  Also, not all battery chargers are created equal.  That is why I look at the specified values and outcomes, versus just turning any charger loose in Equalize Mode.  Not only can it cause harm to the batteries, but also anything that happens to be on the wire when the charger applies 16.2 or more volts.  I suppose if I were asked a general question, I would respond, as I did, and state that I do not recommend using it.  I have used it, to attempt to resurrect suspected bad batteries, but ALWAYS isolated from the coach (i.e., removed from the coach).  That said, what I posted is what the manufacturer has published, and not hearsay, the reader can take that or leave it.

 Another thing - voltage is used only for a convenient way to "guesstimate" the SOC or charge of a battery.  It is no way directly related, mathematically, to the condition of a battery.  The voltage, which will vary by battery manufacturer, is obtained by experimental measurement.  One should never use voltage as a fine measurement of the condition of a battery.  The charts are only give as a reference for those who have no other way of estimating the condition.  It is kind of like using a wind sock to gauge the wind speed.  Yes, there is a relationship to the wind sock and air speed, but it is derived by observing the wind sock while the wind speed is measured by a more accurate, precise and repeatable means, typically an anemometer.  Just like battery condition is measured by hydrometer.  Voltage may be easier just like glancing at a wind sock is easier, but there is no way either is more accurate.

In the future, when you gain knowledge of Lithium batteries, you will realize that voltage doesn't provide any significant indication of battery state of charge.  Lithium batteries vary less than 0.01 volts over 10% charge and some are less than 1.0 volts difference between 20% and 90% capacity.  The differences can be easily lost in wiring losses when we are talking 100's of Amps (which many systems require - remember, that is only 10's of Amps at 110 VAC.  Everyone should be migrating away from using voltage to determine a "value" of battery condition.  It can be used for comparison purposes, like I now have more charge in my battery at 12.5 volts than I did before charging when I read 11.9 volts, but one should refrain from attaching absolute percentages to those readings, especially, as you have pointed out, that the voltage reading are only valid for a specific manufacturers' specific chemistry, and in the case of lead acid, only after the battery has be disconnected from any charge/discharge source, and surface charge has had time to dissipate.  Not many of us want to remove the cables from our batteries and wait an hour or more to determine the state of charge of our batteries.  Especially since there is an economical, easy to use, alternative. 

Sorry about likely getting into the weeds on this.  

  -Rick N.

That Trombetta solenoid is the one I referenced above as a "Big Boy".  The two large cables connect to the chassis battery and the house battery banks.  When neither the engine nor shore power is present, the voltage to ground from either of those terminals should be the same a the battery bank they are connected (around 12.6 volts).  When the main engine is running, after a couple minutes, that solenoid should energize (it will be warm, almost hot).  The the two large cables should read the same voltage as the chassis batteries read (around 14.2 - 14.4 volts).  Both sides should be within 0.2 volts of the other.  Now shut the engine off, and connect shore power.  You should have anywhere from 13.4 to 14.4 volts (depending on what mode your charger is in - Bulk, Absorb or Float).  That voltage again should be the same (within 0.2 Volts) or each other.  The most common problem is dirty contacts.  You can disassemble the solenoid, and replace or clean the contacts.  They also make silver contacts that resist corrosion and pitting better.  Let me know the results of these tests.  Much less often, there is a problem in the BIRD circuitry (located in the Front Run Bay).

  -Rick N.

Your 2008 Diplomat is equipped with a BIRD (Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay) which allows for charging both from the alternator to both sets of batteries (chassis and house) and from the Inverter/Battery Charger to both sets of batteries.  See page 177 of your Owners Manual.  

Generally, if the the solenoid the BIRD controls (sometimes called the Big Boy) does not engage or has bad contacts, then there will be no current (charging) going either way.  That means that your engine alternator would not be maintaining your house batteries going down the road.  

I'm not sure where that realy (solenoid) is located on your coach - it is the same relay that energizes when you hold down the BOOST switch on the dash.  Measure both sides of the relay (large cables) and if there is more than 0.2 volts difference (when either the engine is running or you are are shore power), the contacts are bad.  

  -Rick N.

50 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

Rick is correct.

BUT, to answer your question....here is what is in the files.... READ ON AFTER THE LINK

When I wrote this and it needs a little revision, it was very general.  BUT, here is how your determine how good your Trojan's are....and how much capacity you have.

• FIRST, having them load tested is a waste of time.  Lifeline AGMs and Trojan's manuals both, I think, say...  LOAD TESTERS WILL NOT WORK on Deep Cycle. I printed out the Lifeline page 22 on how to TEST.  It is the best that I have seen.  YES, that is for an AGM, but it is applicable to Flooded...so it works for your batteries.....see the file page that I is a PDF
• Basically, the Trojans need to be exercised, drained to approximately 50%, about every 6 - 9 months.  That procedure is in the Battery 101 paper.  However, here is a little more "info" that I will add.
• The best device to run them down is a $20 Halogen work light from Lowes.  It is 250 Watts and works fine.  That pulls about 20 amps....so close enough to the recommended 25 amps.
• You can do the test and need a VOM.  Here is the revisions or the simplification. Obviously FILL the batteries properly with DI water...
• After the House is charged.  Turn on a TV or fans or whatever and let the inverter run.  When the meter reads around 12.7 Volts....STOP.  This is NOT precise...all you are doing is knocking OFF the surface charge. STOP...turn OFF the House Disconnect.  Remove the Jumpers and measure the batteries....WRITE IT DOWN....this is the "presumed SOC" or should be in the 6.37 VDC range....if it is LOWER...then you KNOW that they will NOT recharge to 100%...but how much and you can improve them by exercising....how much?  that depends..... 
• NOW...make sure a solar panel is covered or the fuses in the controller or pull unscrew the HOUSE terminal and remove the battery lead in the controller
• I would turn off at a power strip or unplug all TV, Satellites or DVD or receivers or whatever....so you ONLY had 250 Watts on the inverter.
• NOW...I monitor or write down the voltage on the meter and the VOM reading on the Batteries about every 15 minutes and monitor the drain.
• When you get to about 11.9 or  12.0 on the VOM, you will be close to 50%
• THEN kill the load.  Turn OFF the House Battery Switch.  Pull the Jumpers from the House batteries and let them SIT.  Wait maybe 15  to 30 minutes.  THEN measure the individual batteries.  At that point, I use my Hydrometer and also measure the Specific Gravity....
• THEN WRITE DOWN THE VOLTAGE.  Use the CHART.  That tells you HOW LOW they were depleted.  ALSO record the TIME....or minutes that it took.
• NOW....reconnect the Jumpers.  Turn on the Disconnect.  Charge THE BATTERIES UP.....now REPEAT THE TESTREPEAT 2 more times....
• At the END...you SHOULD have if the Batteries are GOOD or 100%, the 6.37 VDC after the final recharge (after knocking off the surface).  IF NOT....then the rule of thumb is....80% SOC or better....LIVE WITH IT...70% or SO....MIGHT need to Budget for new ones.... 50 - 60%....you have an issue...
• THE GOOD THING....the Trojans are the most ROBUST and hardest to "kill by neglect".  

That's how you do it.  HOW, as to "will they make it trough the night....that depends.  MY EXPERIENCE...as well as many others here.  A GOOD (90% or so SOC) bank of 4 will get you easily through the night with a Res Refer set in ECONOMY and LED's in the MH and NOT running the TV's or assuming you did a full charge before quiet hours ended or at bedtime.  The Batteries will probably be around 60%....or maybe a smidge higher.  Depends on the heating needs...

Here is a REALLY TECHNICAL ANSWER...  Using the 20 amp trouble light....and draining the batteries to 6.12 (the BOUNCE BACK or RECOVERY VOLTAGE), which is 60%...  Now you have pulled 40% of the Amp Hours or "MINUTES".  A bank of four....has a 20 Amp capacity of 1,118 Minutes.  SO, when they are at 6.12 VDC, they have used up 40% of their capacity.  That is 447 minutes.  The Inverter STEALS 5%...so that is 425.  Divide that by 60...7.07 or round to SEVEN HOURS...

ALL of this is theoretical...  THE MAIN THING TO KNOW.... what is the SOC of my bank...after I quickly KNOCK OFF the surface and the reading, after pulling the Jumpers and they are fully charged and such....what is the VOLTAGE.  If it is around 6.37, then the Magnum should be reading around 12.7.  DO NOT be surprised if the Magnum is reading 12.5 or so....you NEED to know the accuracy or the correlation between what the BATTERIES are reading with a VOM and what the Magnum says.

That's it.... 

LifeLine Testing.pdf 22.68 kB · 0 downloads

Tom,  

Load Testing does work, and you included a document describing how to perform such a test.  I think maybe you meant that the typical Carbon Pile Load Tester used to test Automotive Starting (as distinguished from Deep Cycle) batteries will not work.  That device is designed to present a high load for a short period of time, simulating an engine starter.  The referenced procedure from Lifeline is what I recommend for all Lead Acid (Flooded or AGM) Deep Cycle batteries.  I don't recommend following your procedure of guessing where 50% is (11.9 or 12.0 or ???).  Also, the first 50% time does not necessarily represent the last 50% time.  If you follow the Lifeline procedure referenced, you discharge to 10.0 volts.  This is their definition "battery depleted" and what they use to rate their battery capacity.  Also, a constant current discharge is needed.  I agree with you that Halogen Shop light, on a "light dimmer" so they can be adjusted for precisely the current (25 Amps in this case) is achieved, but 250 Watts won't do the job.  I used a 400 Watt adjusted for the requisite 25 Amps.  To perform this test, you must change your low voltage cutoff on your inverter, since you want to discharge to 10.0 Volts which is lower than most have their invert set (typically 11.0-11.5 volts).  This is ONLY for this special case load test.  Now the 10.0 volts is special - it is the voltage UNDER 25 Amp Load, that represents a full depleted battery.  This is NOT the voltage you would read if you were to let the battery set.  Lifeline developed this test so you don't have to go through all the wait for surface charge, etc.  Speaking with the engineers, they acknowledge that this voltage is different that what you would read with the battery resting.  But this is a special load test.  It must be performed at 25 Amps to be valid.  A different discharge current (i.e., 20 Amps) would yield a different end voltage.  Depending on how close your inverter can maintain the output voltage with varying input battery voltage (it will vary from around 12.7 or so all the way down to 10.0 volts), it may not matter what you use as a load.  If you are performing this test without an inverter (an inverter is not necessary to to load test batteries), you would have to be more careful what you used as a load, since many resistive loads will cause the current to drop as the voltage drops (E=I*R) so incandescent bulbs don't work well).  You will time the load test.  Then compare the time it took to reach 10.0 volts to the rated time at 25-Amp discharge.  The ratio of these times will provide the percentage of battery capacity.  Note this is not remaining capacity, or used capacity, but the total capacity of the battery.  

This test will NOT calculate any voltage or Depth of Discharge or State of Charge Charts.  It is solely used to determine the condition of the battey.

Let me know if I can answer questions.  

  -Rick N.

1 hour ago, Tom Cherry said:

BEN,

Trojan tech support says for OUR MOTOR HOMES...where we usually keep a high quality 3 phase charger/inverter on the bank......then NEVER, NEVER...unless the batteries are at getting weak or there are major differences....in a battery or between batteries........then EQUALIZE....  This is sort of a LAST RESORT. 

IF you stay plugged in....then they recommend the PERIODIC EXERCISING.

NOW....if you don't....and after you have exercised them....and they still are a bit "low"   THEN if the Specific Gravity is way different from cell to cell in one battery or the battery voltages are way different. THEN and ONLY THEN, equalize.  There is a page in the Manual that goes into this.

Trojan says to take that with a grain of salt...that not EVERY person has a MH like we do....You can read the specifics of the variation...but remember....if you keep the batteries charged....then test them....and if they then FAIL, then and ONLY THEN...should your Equalize.

They say that periodic equalization, when NOT needed, actually decreases the battery life. 

This is based on several phone calls with different tech support.  Magnum is more of a SOCK IT TO THEM Equalization vendor...but NOT Trojan. 

Technically, equalizing an AGM or a SEALED battery is the last resort...as you will NEVER, EVER (unless you drill or remove the covers) be able to ADD BACK THE LOST LIQUID....

I think there may be new information on equalization.  Trojan now states "Equalizing should be performed when a battery is first purchased (also called a freshening charge) and on a regular basis or as needed. How often your battery will require an equalization charge will vary depending on your application."  You will need a way to measure Specific Gravity accurately.  Trojan states "it is time to equalize if the measured specific gravity (SG) values are below manufacturer’s recommended values after charging (recommended value for Trojan deep cycle batteries is 1.285 +/- .007 at 80º F (27º C)).

Personally, I never equalized.  If you choose to, disconnect the coach from the batteries and charger.  The equalization voltage is high enough it may cause damage to sensitive electronics and other devices.  Check with your manufacturer for the correct equalization voltage - Trojan is 16.2 volts for their 12-volt flooded cells.  Make sure your inverter/charger is properly set for this voltage.  Again, you will need to monitor the Specific Gravity every hour.  Trojan states "Equalization is complete when specific gravity values no longer rise during the gassing stage." 

The key to this is to get an accurate Specific Gravity tester, one that can resolve measurement to 0.01.  

  -Rick N.

19 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

Yes, BUT....I'm GUESSING and you can verify.  That Insta Hot Outlet should be on the Sub Panel #2 GFCI breaker.  On that circuit is also the Microwave.  Add in the Lamp Table #8 Circuit.  Theoretically, as Monaco, I HOPE, designed it for DIVERSITY....the Microwave will pull approximately 15 Amps.  You have 30, potential for that L1 Circuit.  Therefore, you have 15 Amps to feed the other outlets....which also includes the Lamp Table or whatever....as it says OPTION.  Even if this outlet is there, the predicted load for running the Microwave (15) and your other appliances will load the L1 Circuit up....

Therefore, the TRUE Cook Top needs to be on the L2 Circuit.  That means that the Refrigerator will be the logical candidate. The ONLY concern I would have...is that the FLA of the Samsung does NOT exceed 5 Amps.  The TRUE will consume that, but there will not be an INDUCTIVE load, I suppose, on it like there is on the Samsung.

The brief "SPIKE" that is very difficult to see on a VOM when the Samsung starts up should NOT be long enough to pop the breaker.  YES, this will be a PUSH.  

NOW....I have NO IDEA of the interior layout....so just take this as CONCEPTUAL.  YOU COULD change out Breaker #7 to a STANDARD 20 Amp Breaker.  Then, go to the Receptacle in Bath Rear.  Change that out to a 20 Amp GFCI receptacle (Eaton Wiring, Leviton or Hubbell).  BUT, then tap in or use the LINE SIDE and run your circuit up Front.  That would balance the load.  Put the TRUE on that NEW run....following the solid and stranded convention. 

NOW...NOT KNOWING WHERE THINGS ARE...would it be easier to run that (#8) to the Bathroom and then come out on the LINE side of the NEW GFCI and run that to the Samsung.  You do NOT want to run the Samsung on a GFCI..  Then you could run from the Refrigerator outlet to wherever it is more convenient to get to the TRUE.

Just a thought.....location and ease of installation is the key

OR...say to HECK with it...and use the Intellitec Module and use a strip of Wire Mold and then rock on.  The only downside...  NOT RUNNING BOTH THE MICROWAVE AND TRUE at the same time

Be CAUTIOUS as you play with alternatives and look at the layout of the Sub Panel.  Of COURSE...I would check the breakers....Jim J and I compared notes and he gave me the basics on his and then it was easy, knowing how the Sub Panel in structured internally to develop the circuit.

Lots of input....but make sure that one understands the constraints....

One of us has misinterpreted the OP Post.  Here is what he posted:  The existing refrigerator circuit to the main panel is run through the ceiling.  I will disable that circuit and run from the main panel .  I believe e is speaking of the MAIN Panel, NOT the Inverter Sub-Panel, and talking about the Refrigerator circuit that used to power a Propane Refrigerator Electric Heaters.  It sounds like he has replaced that propane refrigerator and the new refrigerator is plugged into the Inverter Sub-Panel Ice Maker circuit.  This would be a normal installation.  So, he appears to propose using the no longer needed refrigerator breaker in the MAIN Power panel to supply power to the Induction Burner.  

If I am interpreting this correctly, he does NOT plan on using the Induction burner off any Inverter Sup-Panel breaker, or of the Inverter at all.  IMO this is a smart decision.  It does mean that he will either have to be connected to shore power or run the generator when he wishes to use the Induction burner (much like many here also do when using their microwave).  I got lost trying to follow all the rest of your post, since it did not appear to be relevant to the original question.  Please forgive me if I'm wrong.  Maybe clarification from the OP would help.

  -Rick N

To properly answer this question, you need to get a handle on all the leads being supplied by the batteries - that might surprise you.  I recommend a Shunt- type monitor, which along with showing instantaneous current, will also show the SOC (State Of Charge) of your battery bank.  The 11.0 Volts might be a bit high, since the battery voltage drops under a heavy load, but recovers after the load quits.  But begot you randomly start changing things, measure the load.  A Clamp-on DC Ammeter will worth to identify steady loads.  If both your compressors on the refer kicked in when running your vacuum, that could have triggered the inverter to shut down. 

  - Rick N 

14 minutes ago, jacwjames said:

When I was in N Wisconsin last summer I visited with my sister, she has a 5th wheel set up in campground and use it for weekend getaways. 

One of her neighbors was having trouble with connecting her hotspot to the nearest tower.  She bought a WeBoost home antenna and said that it worked great.  Not sure what the difference in a home antenna versus an auto type. 

When I was in Carlsbad NM in Oct I happen to see one of the WeBoost antennas on a work truck and I stopped to ask the owner how it worked.  He said it worked great, had a signal almost everywhere he's been.  He worked in the oil fields and they said we usually out of reach from towers without using the WeBoost.

I have a WeBoost but when I was trying to pull the antenna wire into the coach I pulled the end off.  I did this just before I left on my trip.  I called WeBoost and they sent me a new antenna wire but I didn't get it prior to leaving.  During my trip I'm not sure the WeBoost was working but I have it now and intend to run the new wire. 

I bought a WeBoost from a RVer who no longer was traveling.  I got a good deal on it.  I've read a lot on these and was skeptical, but the price was right.  The problem with the mobile versions (they are different from fixed versions) is that the carriers have lobbied the FCC who has limited the max power (gain) of the mobile units, along with requiring registration of sorts so they know who might be overloading (overpowering) their towers.  Another thing that has changed in the last few years is limiting the distance you can be from the inside antenna - 30 inches or something ridiculous or something like that.  I can definitely see a difference in signal strength when I get my cell phone or Mobley (like a hot spot) within 3-ft of the inside antenna.  But that does not necessarily translate to increased speed.  I spent most of my experimenting with a 4G Verizon tower about 500 yards from my coach.  The whole RV park (those on Verizon) and likely those in town all used that same tower.  I could not get a good correlation between the increased signal strength and download speed.  I would say it is slightly better.  But that is not what they were really designed for.  They likely work best when the tower is far away, barely reachable.  I haven't had an opportunity to do that sort of testing yet, but plan to next month in the deserts of Arizona.  My biggest disappointment is with having to be so close to the inside antenna for it to make a difference.  I currently have a desktop inside antenna sitting on the desk directly behind the driver's seat.  I mount my cell phone on the dash when I'm driving.  That is about 8 - 10 feet away.  There is no perceived benefit with the phone on the dash, but very little data is being sent (just notifications), only Voice, and not much of that.

Just FIY, I was talking with the engineers at Wilson (the parent company of WeBoost) regarding installing a "home" device in my coach.  Besides not authorized by the FCC, there is a big difference.  Yes, the "home" unit has much more gain, but it doesn't allow for switching towers rapidly, in fact it attempts to inhibit that switching.  This is fine if you are not moving, but going down the highway, you are constantly switching towers as one tower "hands off" the call to the next closer.  This happens even in cities when you are not moving.  Noticed that the number of bars on your phone changes, sometimes dramatically?  That is because the call was "handed" to a tower further away, but still within range, so it could accept a different call.  I'm likely in the weeds, but because this "handoff" doesn't occur (I'm not clear on this, but I suspect by design, so people like us don't try to employ "home" units) or if it has do with again with FCC Regulations.  

  -Rick N.

5 hours ago, saflyer said:

That’s the issue, coverage. I wonder if the towers that home 5G internet uses are special ones different from the cellphone system. I’ve used T-Mobiles service identifier where you put in an address to find if that location has home internet available. Many times it returns a negative response but I am able to use my T-Mobile phone there. Might be a crapshoot getting home internet service in any given location.

I don't think the 5G towers (or hardware at the towers) is different from a 5G cellphone.  But the 5G towers use different hardware than the 4G towers.

-Rick N.