waterskier_1

1 hour ago, richmelcole@sbcglobal.net said:

I investigated my route for my new circuit for our induction cooktop.  The existing refrigerator circuit to the main panel is run through the ceiling.  I will disable that circuit and run from the main panel horizontally back to the bedroom TV cabinet, then down to the washer/dryer area, then horizontally forward to the kitchen slide out using the wire case along the floor, then route up along the countertop/cabinet to a new jbox containing a 20-amp combination switch/outlet under the sink along the cabinet wall.  I will use 12/2 MC Lite cable to make the run from the main circuit panel to the combination switch/outlet.  One question, can the MC Lite cable be used with screw type connections with the combination switch/outlet?

Richard

Look at SOOW wire.  You should be able to use Romex from the breaker panel to the J- Box on the coach side.  Then SOOW between the J- Boxes (flex connection between coach and slide).  Optionally, you could use SOOW for the entire run. 

  - Rick N 

1 hour ago, Will52 said:

T-Mobile is nonexistent in Yellowstone National Park no phone no nothing FYI

This is not surprising.  They did have internet at the campground office, and other Park buildings (Visitor Center).  This is true for many National Parks that are not co-located near cities.  Mesa Verde,  Yosemite, Kings Canyon/ Sequoyah are examples where any cell service and very limited WiFi are available. I use Dish Network so I had TV, and stopped a locations where those services were available while touring the area.  If internet service is a very high priority, Starlink may be your best option. 

  - Rick N 

Have any of you who have 5G internet access checked your upload speed?  I need at least 12MB upload reliability (server, scurry, cameras, streaming from my devices, etc.)?

  - Rick N 

11 hours ago, DBRV.0 said:

There must be a reason, such as they believe your location will result in poor reception, thus you will "send it back".  I was in a similar situation, then towers popped up that changed the status.  There must be line-of-sight between antennas, yours and theirs, and it cannot be a long distance.  If you have a cell phone of a provider, and that works, I would expect it likely that they would make Home Internet available.  Check out websites that might show cell towers, then determine if the distance is great or something (like a hill/mountain) exists between you and their tower(s).  With a quick search, I found antennasearch.com as an example.

FWIW, I have Verizon LTE Home Internet.  When I first purchased it a few years ago, I found that there was not a place inside my home that had a strong enough signal for the unit to connect.  I tried everything.  In contrast, my cell phone worked reliably in 75% of the space indoors, so I implemented "wifi calling" on my phones to make calls work.  My issue was that foil on my [custom] house wall and roof sheathing degraded signals.  Out of frustration, I put the LTE unit on my balcony floor where it could "see" the blinking-light cell tower.  That worked and I got 35MB down.  It's not supposed to be a weather proof unit, but I had no choice and it sat out there for years.  I now have that unit sitting above the passenger seat of my Monaco, and I get 55MB down, but I am currently stationary.

I'm sure you are right.  I don't havre 5G service on my cell phone at home.  I get no AT&T at home - it switched to WiFi calling, so I switched to Verizon.  I get two bars of 4G.  I live in an older suburb and they are using.5G in the urban areas - eventually they will get it.  As you said,  5G is design for densely populated areas where there is"line of sight" to the tower. Each tower can handle many more simultaneous connections, but only for short distances which is why large, densely populated cities were first to get it.  And that was usually in the urban areas.  That sad. I was surprised when my nephew told me he installed T- Mobile Home internet at the farm in Wyoming.  It's a very small town, but I'm not sure what other options there were for internet. Maybe one tower can support the whole town 🤔.

I'm going to input some of the places I stay often in Arizona, and a couple of the bases I stay on, and see if they support one or the other.  Have you tried using you device outside your state?

  - Rick N 

I just checked and neither Verizon or T-Mobile have Home Internet at my address.  😔

  -Rick N.

17 hours ago, Ivan K said:

My coach diagram shows 5x SJEOW-A flexible cable 14/3 between those 6x6 J-boxes. 15A rating each. That would be the type of cable I would use if I needed an other one whatever size.

I was surprised to read this, so I looked, and the 2002 Windsor (and 2003) don't show the slide J-Box detail, so I went to the same year Dynasty.  You are correct.  But that is for the CSA coaches.  I believe that is Canadian, but I'm not quite sure, but they also show only 15 Amp Breakers in parenthesis to the USA 20 Amp breakers.  I looked further, and found another USA J-Box Drawing which show 12 gauge THNN (stranded wire) in the "3/4-inch CORRLOCK FLEXIBLE CONDUIT", Electro-Flex P/Y CL-14, Monaco P/Y 16515.  Rocketman3 is correct, you would not want to use Stranded Romex in a flexible situation.  Also, the Romex would not physically fit in the Corrlock conduit.  I have added 3 Victron Direct cables, a Cat 3 cable and a RG-58 coax cable to my driver's side Corrlock.  There was roo in the Corrlock, but I barely had enough room in the hole through the floor.  I don't think two more AWG 14 THNN wires would be a problem, but I have not looked inside the J-Boxes themselves (which contain all the 110 VAC wiring).  I would NOT downsize the wire without downsizing the breaker it is connected to.  The difference in diameter between AWG 12 and AWG 14 should not be an issue.

  -Rick N.

1 hour ago, TomV48 said:

Behind my fridge there are two outlets.   The inverter circuit is intended for the ice maker.  While the non inverter outlet  is intended for the heating element.   In an emergency I have run the frig off the inverter, as it pulls only 4-5 amps for the 500-600 watt boiler heater.  I would not mess with 1500 watts on that leg, but even the fridge boiler heater was pulling over 40 amps from the batteries which is not desirable long term, even on my big battery bank.  My wife will not even run the microwave on the inverter as it is not pure sine and the she says, "I don't like the way it sounds on the inverter, and the generator needs to run once in a while anyway."

The inverter outlet designated for the ice maker is actually on a 20 Amp breaker, versus the non-inverted outlet for the heating element.  The circuit (wiring and circuit breaker) can easily handle the refrigerator.  If there is no shore (or generator) power, you are correct that the inverter will take over and power the refrigerator.  I don't know why anyone would do that, since the described refrigerator has propane for use when there is not shore power.  In fact, the whole logic for two outlets, one on and one off the inverter is to allow for the automatic switchover built into the refrigerator - when shore power is lost, it will switch to propane.  The inverted outlet is for the ice maker, which would not otherwise operate when on propane.  

I wouldn't worry about drawing 40 amps from a good battery bank.  I draw about that much throughout the day, especially if the TV, Surround Sound, Dish Receiver, Router, Cell Booster, WiFi Ranger, and Aquahot are running.  Granted I have solar to ease the consumption from the battery, but it does not hurt the inverter, Circuit Breaker, or wiring to do so.  I would not add a propane heater to the inverter, any more than I would run a water heater (non Aquahot) on electricity when boondocking.  That is why many of our appliances have dual sources for heat.

Regarding running the microwave on an inverter, I was designed to do so.  Now you do have to be realistic on how much and how long you use it.  I will reheat (less than 5 minutes in microwave mode) on the inverter, especially if it's during the day and my batteries are topped off by the solar.  I will not use convection mode on the inverter.  Most things I cook that way require a pre-heat that often takes longer than my 5-minute rule.  But that mostly because I realize that batteries do NOT produce electricity.  They only store it, and whatever is used must eventually be replaced. 

I objective data says that it's okay to use many microwaves on MSW (Modified Sine Wave).  The main concern would be the electronics digital display.  The magnetron requires a very high voltage, so whatever power comes in is first run through a transformer and then rectified to DC.  If you are really concerned, then look at Inverter Microwaves.  Like Inverter residential refrigerators,  they don't care if MSW or PSW, and they are much more energy efficient since they are not "full power" or "full off" cycling.  They actually modulate the power.  That said, I have read a bunch of empirical comments that microwaves don't like inverters, but no objective data to back up the claim.  All these comments presume that the inverter and the appliance are operating correctly, and the the battery supply is sufficient to supply power to the inverter.

  -Rick N. 

  -Rick N.

A couple of suggestions.  It sounds like you do not have the optional TV that drops out of the ceiling.  My previous Dynasty did not either.  I built a support similar to what other have suggested, but I did not cut the box down.  Mine was over the driver's seat, so it wasn't in the way for normal traffic when parked.  But I found the TV to be too far off center, so I added an articulating mount that allowed me to swing the TV closer to the center of the coach.  That helped a lot.  But I got a stiff neck looking up at the TV.  I was in a short (32') coach, so I wasn't more than 10 feet away.  I devised a system using drawer slides that allowed the TV to slide down to a normal position when parked and slide up, lock it in place, then move the articulating arm so the TV was back over the old (hole) which became a book and DVD shelf.  Just something to consider and improve upon.

  -Rick N. 

3 hours ago, Tom Cherry said:

OK....sounds like we have most of the facts....

YES, I did pull the prints this morning....as well as look at the information from the Owner's manual.  and Jim J and I had a conversation several months ago...and we compared drawings and worked out the circuits from his "measurements" and also how the Sub Panel is wired... MY BEST GUESS....as to Rick's question.  YES, the panels are located in the back closet.

I see that they are in the back.  Likely the "closet" whatever that is, since there is also the "wardrobe" which I call a closet.  My primary question is "what is beneath the panel, in the "closet".  In my case, it is a washer/dryer combo, such that without drilling through the washer/dryer I can NOT exit my Inverter (or Main) Power Panel directly from the box to and through the floor with conduit.  I know some coaches the Power Panel is inside what Monaco calls the "wardrobe" where such conduit may be run.

  See Page 8-20 of the 2002 Owner's Manual.  I search all pages 8 through 20 and found only new owner stuff.  It should be Page 8-206, which again doesn't tell me what I need to know.

BUT, look at the Drawing below.  The Inverter is a Dual IN, Dual OUT.  SO, the two 30 Amp Breakers (Inverter 1 and Inverter 2) feed the Inverter.  Then the two AC Out's, from the Inverter....FEED THE SUBPANEL.  Back to my logic.  YES...  there is 30 amps IN on each side.  Directly FROM the Main panel.  SO....if the Inverter is rated, and some of the earlier ones were NOT like the Magnum...  2000 Watts INVERTED and 3,600 Watts OUTPUT. 

Tom, I can not address every possible inverter on the market.  What I need to know is what, specific Inverter the OP has in his coach.  Not what came with it originally, which he may still have, but most my consulting is based on or after the inverter has been upgraded, mostly to PSW, but also more power capability.

THAT, to me, the Trace RC-7's ATS AMP rating is the unknown.  I have downloaded and gone over the Manual.  WONDERFUL.  BUT, it does NOT, like a Magnum, tell you what the ATS is rated at.  The Windsor's owner's manual says: 

Incorporated in the inverter is a double pole “pass-through” relay which trips when AC power is supplied to the input terminals. This will transfer AC power through the inverter to a sub panel supplying AC power to outlets and appliances. When AC power is supplied to the inverter, the internal battery charger will “ramp up” battery charging voltage. A 20 second time delay allows charge stabilization before pass through AC power is supplied to the sub panel.  

OK....  Question or comments from @jacwjames or @waterskier_1

Assume there are 30 amps on L1 and L2 coming into the Inverter.  That would be 7,200 watts.  Yes, well more precisely, 7200 Volt-Amps - the Wattage is usually spec'd lower because of the power factor, but we are getting into the weeds.

What is the AMP RATING of the Internal ATS or what is the output of the two AC's OUT?  I have no idea, but I'm not redesigning the Inverter.  At some point we must assume that the manufacturer selected the proper components based upon the rated input and output.

That is what bugs me?  IF it is rated like a Magnum....then the ATS is 3,600 watts.  That WILL, barely, support the Microwave and the Cooktop....BOTH  If that is true for the Magnum, your statement is true.  But how many times have people plugged in more than one space heater, and tripped the breaker.  That is why, until I know the specific manufacturer/model of the Inverter, I don't waste my time considering the universe of possibilities. 

SO, all the INTERIOR or internal outlets are in the Sub Panel.  I think that is a true statement - I'm not sure what you might be getting at by capitalizing "INTERIOR".  The only outlets that are not feed by the inverter sub-panel are the Block Heater and the Refrigerator (which in Monaco lingo is discretely different from the inverter Ice Make outlet.

The Microwave is in the Sub Panel. True.

  If you add in the Cook Top, that will be in the Sub Panel.  I believe that is the OP's intention.  I personally don't recommend that, but that is not because it's a safety issue, but an overall power management issue.

If ALL are used, assuming on Shore or Genny....then, assume 15 Amps for Interior, 15 Amps for Microwave and 15 Amps for Cook Top.  That is 4,500 Watts.  Not sure I follow your math.  If you sum 3-15 Amp breakers, you get 45 Amps.  45 Amps X 120 Volts is 5400 Watts (maybe you transposed the numbers?).  I'm not quite sure where the 15-Amps comes from.  There are 5) 20-Amp breakers in the Inverter Sub-Panel, but that doesn't mean that you can draw (5 * 20) = 100 Amps or 12 KW from the panel.  

I do NOT know if the ATS is rated that hight.  We can not second guess every product on the market.  If his inverter (still don't know which so the subject is purely academic) is designed for 30 Amps time 2, I have no reason to believe it can't handle that.

Again... I DO KNOW that the ATS on a Magnum is only rated for 30 Amps.  It MATTERS NOT whether it is a Single IN Dual Out or a Dual In Dual Out.  Again, I can't speak for all inverters.  I know that Victrons are rated at 50 Amps Pass-Through.  

If this was mine, I would want to know the Amperage or the Wattage of the Double Pole internal or BYPASS ATS....per the manual. THEN, make my decision.  Then ask the manufacturer.

Rick make a good point...  "I NEED MORE information"....and then the Location is the focus.  The Owner's manual, plus my own personal helping folks out on older Windsor's pointed me to the Closet.... Which I reverified.

BUT, prior to that....unless you know the Wattage or the amperage (on each pole), you can't say to USE the Subpanel.  THAT was why I suggested NOT using the Sub Panel and using the Block Heater....  From the Manual....the Block Heater's GFCI rating is NOT on the diagram.  BUT, if you look at the Drawing, it is a 15 Amp.  None of the breakers in the Main Power Panel are GFCI.  Only two breakers in the Inverter Sub-Panel are GFCI; those serve the Galley and the Bath (along with other outlets). 

UNLESS you can nail down the Amps or wattage of the internal RC-7 ATS, The RC-7 does not have an ATS - the ATS is located in the inverter, not the remote control panel.

I would tap into (use a Junction Box)....Rick and I get tied up in details....so "macro view" the Block heater circuit with an appropriate Junction box.  I would swap OUT the GFCI to a 15 Amp Breaker....UNLESS the wiring to it was #12....if so, then I would use a 20 Amp breaker.  Then one COULD install a 15 A GFCI in the Block Heater's Receptacle.  That MEETS "Code" or Monaco's intent....and believe me, it is STUPID to have a GFCI on a TOASTER ELEMENT....and SINCE one does NOT intend to run a "Power Tool" or dry one's hair standing in a puddle of water.... I would NOT change out the Block heater.  There have been Windsor owners that reported the heater was OK but it had enough tiny leakage to TRIP the internal GFCI in the panel and swapped them out. A common problem.  I THINK that my main panel is a standard breaker and the receptacle is a GFCI...but I don't use it.... There is no GFCI on the 15 Amp Block Heater breaker.  

OK....back on point.  The J-Box would then have a run that HOPEFULLY could be accomplished by normal means and not have to have a boa constrictor doing the snaking and such.  I'm not sure what "normal means" means regarding getting the romex or conduit from the rear engine compartment, past the engine and transmission and over the drive axle and then into the sealed basement looks like.  But I don't see any difference between using the Block Heater J-Box versus running a new romex from either the Main or the Sub Panel, once you get it through the floor.  That was my main concern.

That's my take....still the same....  I would NOT use the Sub Panel unless I knew the internal ATS's FLA and THAT is critical.  If you use the Sub Panel and lose power to shore...that rascal, the inverter, is going to start INVERTING....  That is why, since the Upper food chain rigs like the Exec and Sig actually had 240 VAC units or maybe earlier 120....they were ALL off the Main Panel and NOT through the Sub Panel... I guess that is a possibility, but it wouldn't do it for long.  Most current technology inverters allow the maximum pass-through only in non-inverting (shore power) mode.  Once the AC Input to the inverter disappears, the inverter drops the "non-essential" load and powers the "essential" load only.  Again, since I have no idea what the OP has, I can't say how his would react.  I think the main reason most things, other than the microwave and outlets, were not put on the inverter is two-fold.  First, we didn't have the battery capability back then that Lithium batteries now provide.  The OP could likely cook dinner on a nice set of lithium batteries.  The concern I have is: is it worth it to cook for an hour only to have to run the generator for two hours or more to replace what you took out?  Second, electronics has come a long ways in the last 20-25 years.  As have manufacturing processes to build the new technology into products.  I know a handful of people whom I have consulted with that have their whole coach, including A/C's on their inverter.  Some are limited to just one A/C while using a myriad of other devices we all have in our coaches, because they elected to not incorporate dual inverters and 24 or 48 Volt systems, a must a those power levels.

Comments?

2002 & 2003 Windsor Sub Panel & Inverter Circuit.pdf 158.56 kB · 1 download

After the OP has read the different comments, a would like to hear how he wants to proceed.  I can advise on system design features, and provide limited help with the actual physical routing and interconnections, based upon which coaches I've had personal experience.

  -Rick N.

Ok, rather than guess, I pulled the 2002 Windsor Wiring Diagrams.  On the Main Power Panel (non-inverter) all breakers are 20 Amp, except the Block heater and the refrigerator, which are 15 Amp.  On the Inverter Sub-Panel all breakers are 20 Amp (save the 30 Amp input from the inverter).  Yes, it's interesting that the Ice Maker for the Refrigerator is 20 Amps and the Refrigerator (including the AC heaters) is only 15 Amps.  I suspect, but only a guess because it is what I do in my designs, is spec all the wires at 12 gauge so I don't have to have several spools of wire sizes on hand.  

Now to the question.  It appears the OP has a portable 2-burner induction cooktop based on his specs.  A true built-in induction cooktop is often 220 Volt as it has much more powerful elements.

As others have said, it is often counterproductive to run heating devices for long periods of time (say, greater than 30 minutes) of batteries.  We must remember that batteries do not PRODUCE power,  but only store it.  They must be refilled by some other source.  That said, without knowing what the OP has for battery storage and solar or other restrictions (restrictions on when the generator may be used), along with the inverter capabilities, we shouldn't say no.  I would strongly advise against it, if I were asked.

Now, to answer the OP's question, I need more information.  Where, specifically, are the Power (Main & Inverter Sub-) Panels located.  If in the back closet, it is often accessible from the basement (really that would be the engine compartment that far back).  Also of importance, is where the cabinet you plan on placing the cooktop lives - in a slide-out?  I just got through running cables through the flex-accordion-tray from the basement, to the slide floor, then after pulling all the cabinet bottoms out, thru the cabinets to where I needed it.  This was in the Dining Flat Slide on my Exec.  I haven't look, but suspect it is similar, or easier on the kitchen slide, since it's not a flat floor slide.  In my case I was running coax cable and CAT 6 ethernet cable, so protecting it was not as much an issue as 110 VAC Romex would be.  I think if it were me, I'd have to consider violating the NEC (yes Tom, it doesn't apply to RVs, but is still a good guide to electrical safety), and use romex in conduit.  Either PVC (non-metallic electrical conduit to be more exact) or, if it is easier (but more expensive) that waterproof flex conduit.  Both are designed for only single strand (not multiple strands in a sheath) cable.  But single strand if much harder (my opinion) to use in retrofit applications.  You may be able to fish the Romex through the basement ceiling, but getting from the engine compartment to the basement (in front of the drive axle) is often difficult, and then finding room through the foam sealant into those chases can be a problem.  There are at least two chases, one on each side of the coach.  In addition to wires (cables) there are hydraulic hoses (for the power steering) and coolant hoses (for the dash heater) and A/C hoses (for the dash A/C) and others.  It can be done, but it is a difficult endeavor.  

Have you done the simple things, like look for an outlet that might be convenient nearby that you could tap into?  If you were to implement the suggestion of using the microwave circuit, I would strongly suggest you install a double throw switch such that you could select only one or the other.  Granted the 20 Amp Microwave breaker should protect the circuit wiring, but it is bad engineering practice to "design to violate".  I had such a switch in one of my older coaches which was only 30 Amp.  It would switch between the rear A/C and the microwave.  

If you provide more details, I may be able to provide more specific advise.

  -Rick N.

1 hour ago, Martinvz said:

Rick, great idea. Is it reusable and what about storage? Lol

Martin, unfortunately this is a destructive test.  I recommend it performing this final test the following morning.  😁 

My final test is an egg in the frying pan. 

  - Rick N 

I'd like to know what you mean by "... all I really want is TV".  Do you mean just Over the Air (OTA) TV, like you would get with an antenna, when within range of the TV station?  If so, you likely have a good start to one of the best OTA antennas on your roof already - the Winegard Sensor (aka "Batwing") directional antenna.  With the advent of HDTV, many of the old TV stations on VHF changed to UHF.  Winegard makes an add on for the Sensor antenna that enhances the UHF signal band.  With that addition, you have one of the best RV OTA antennas.  There are some that are Omni-directional, so you don't need to aim (rotate) the antenna, but they don't provide as much signal strength in fringe areas.  

Now if by TV, you are meaning satellite based (Dish Network or Direct TV), you will likely have to replace the  InMotion antenna (dish) and receiver, along with purchasing a subscription for their service.  If you already have one of these services at your home, you can likely take the receiver and use the same subscription, or add the coach as an additional receiver, but you will still need to replace the InMotion dish with one that works for Dish Network or Direct TV.

The third option is "streaming".  This refers to using the internet, and either a smart TV or some other device like Roku, Amazon Fire, etc. to connect the TV to the internet.  Then you may need to subscribe to a "streaming service" which provides the channels you can watch.  There are many of these subscription services, at varying cost available (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu, Paramount Plus, etc.).  All this require a good internet connection.  And a fast one if you want to watch HDTV quality.  These use considerable amounts of data.  So, you will also need to purchase some sort of internet service, which can be satellite based (Starlink) or MiFi/WiFi from a cellular provider (hot spot), or even you home or RV Park WiFi system, although the later isn't really designed for streaming, more for email, and you may be banned from it if you consume large quantities of data streaming.

Once you have made a decision on which (or which combinations - I have all three) of "TV" you are considering, we might be able to provide better guidance.

  -Rick N.

Here is a pic of mine, taken from the lower back, looking up. The smaller round gauge at the bottom is the Front Air Pressure Gauge, for reference.

As Paul and Frank posted, all the cables are the same color code and can be connected to any of the associated connectors.  I would go by which looks most likely to have been connected before based upon length, position, etc.  

Hope this helps.

  -Rick N.

Dennis,

I didn't take mine apart that far; I only removed the Front Air Pressure Gauge.  I can tell you that it doesn't make any difference between connector E & F (they can be interchanged, and connector G & H (they also can be interchanged.  I'll see if I can get a pic from under (behind) my dash tomorrow to see if I can help with the two connectors at "C" and the two connectors at "D".  

  -Rick N.

Dennis, I am late replying.  Life got in the way.  I tried the capacitors, and it was still a no-go.  Even though replacing those seems to fix a lot of the problems, it didn't mine.  So I ordered the stepper motor.  It came in yesterday, and I unsoldered the old one, and soldered in the new one.  I think this was easier, likely because I have a whole lot more experience replacing "through the hole" components than I do surface mount.  The surface mount capacitors where difficult to hold in position (they liked move when I touched them with my soldering iron).  The stepper-motor was a bit of a challenge, but nothing I haven't done before, because you have to get four through the board leads unsoldered and cleaned enough to simultaneously pull through the holes remove the motor.  My solder sucker worked well for this.  Soldering in the new stepper motor was easy.  

I just tested it and it works!  Yay, one more item of the check list.  

I want to thank Paul Whittle for his phone assistance and encouragement.  He also repairs these, along with other electronics that are no longer available.  You might talk with him if you don't feel up to the task.  I was planning on shipping my gauge to him tomorrow if my repairs didn't work.  

  -Rick N.

I bought one 10 years ago and never used it.  I too read about paint damage, but the real kicker was it weighed over 70 pounds!  You have to have a better plan than carrying it up the ladder.  Even after you get up on the roof, you have to unroll it over A/C covers, refrigerator covers, roof vents, antennas, and solar panels without falling off.  I ended up selling mine for half what I paid for it and never took it out of the box. 

  - Rick N 

Bit of clarification.  The 10K and 12.5K are similar to 40 Amp and 50K pedestals as Tom points out.

Running the generator for an hour or so has more to do with the engine than the generator portion.  Granted you need to load the generator portion to load the engine.

I sometimes run mine in the morning, depending on what I'm cooking.  I can make coffee off the inverter, but not if i'm running the electric griddle and/or toaster.  Even though I have 1400 Watts of solar, I still use this time to start charging the batteries, often before the solar starts producing.  So, if your batteries need to be charged, just let the genny run for an hour even though it doesn't take that long to make coffee.  I can run the microwave off the inverter too, but choose to only if it's less than 5 minutes, and not in convection mode.  You have to replace the power you removed, so I run the generator if I'm baking.  It's usually just a minute or so to start defrost dinner I forgot to take out of the freezer.

I am confused by your statement regarding 4 cups, 4 or 5 times.  Are you making coffee by the cup?  or are you making 16-20 cups of coffee?  In either case, what I did was purchase a good glass insulated carafe, similar to what pancake houses use.  I started doing this when I was totally non-electric, so I used a percolator coffee pot on the stove, but only had 2 burners so once it was make, I poured it in the carafe, to free up the burner.  It  was still quite warm the next morning (what I didn't drink the previous day).  Now, I still do that, instead of leaving the coffee maker on to keep the pot warm.  You might consider this.

  -Rick N. 

9 minutes ago, saflyer said:

What is an I/C?

Ed          
‘05 HR Ambassador 

I think he is using that abbreviation for Inverter/Charger based on the Aims Model number.  I had to do a Google search to determine what he was talking about.

  -Rick N.

2 minutes ago, Ivan K said:

How did you manage to totally isolate the house and chassis grounds? That would sound like a huge effort and why?

I think some have a misinterpretation of isolated grounds.  Maybe they could tell us what they mean?

1 hour ago, CAT Stephen said:

@waterskier_1,

I'm replying to your question for my post.  You asked:

• "Can you elaborate on your statement that ONLY option is isolated DC to DC charger if using LiFePO4 batteries?  I can't see the logic. "

Here is the electrical installation assumption:

• Although the House and the Chassis share a common ground, the house shunt will be located between the house battery negative post and the chassis/house ground. 

Here is the electrical science :

• An isolated DC to DC charger provides complete electrical galvanic isolation between the chassis input and house output circuits. This means that there is no direct electrical connection between the input and output sides of an isolated DC to DC charger.   Isolated DC to DC chargers utilize transformers to galvanically isolate the house from the chassis circuit.
• Galvanic isolation separates two circuits electrically while allowing the circuits to transfer power. 

A non-isolated charger allows electricity to leak between the house and chassis electrical systems on the positive side because they become positively bonded during DC to DC charger operation.  This direct electrical bond between the house and chassis electrical systems impacts the accuracy of all shunts located on either the house or chassis systems.

I owned a Renogy 40amp DC to DC charger for some time, but I kept getting inaccurate state of charge readings on my shunt versus my LiPO4 battery bank SOC that is bluetooth enabled.  I contacted Renogy support.  Renogy support indicated that their DC to DC chargers which are not isolated result in impacting the accuracy of shunts as there is also a connection to the positive side of the 12V system (obviously).

I also confirmed with Victron Energy support that, if a shunt will be utilized anywhere in an electrical system, they indicate to use only their isolated DC to DC chargers.  Victron Energy also manufactures non-isolated DC to DC chargers.

Can you use a shunt with a non-isolated DC to DC charger?  Yes, but the shunt will not be accurate. 

• I proved this through personally experiencing shunt readings that did not match my LiPO4 SOC via bluetooth. 
• After I replaced my Non-isolated Renogy DC to DC charger with two isolated Victron Energy DC to DC chargers in parallel, my shunt SOC now matches my LiPO4 house battery BMS SOC. 

Your statements are are mostly correct.  But there is no reason to attempt to isolate the negative battery terminal from the chassis, because there is a huge direct short (called a shunt) between the two.  The purpose for Isolated chargers is for when you have isolated systems - that is the "grounds" of one system intentionally do not connect to the grounds of a second system.  In the Victron Class, they use the example of a towed vehicle where you don't want the two chassis to be electrically connected.  I personally don't understand why you would want that, I intentionally make sure all trailers and grounds are the same.  Be that as it may, in the case of our Monaco coaches, the Chassis Ground is intentionally electrically connected to the House Ground.  The grounds are the same.  Granted, for electron counting purposes to generate the SOC, a shunt which is just a piece of metal, shaved to have a specific know resistance, is connected between them.  But for galvanic isolation is a term I have only heard used with respect to marine environments (where Victron started and has it's main business).  Who did you contact at Victron?  I suspect they either misunderstood your were ill informed.  

Comparing your shunt SOC (which is a measure of current flowing (electrons) into and out of whatever the shunt is connected to then mathematically computed by some sort of device (like a Cebro GX) to display SOC.  The calibration of the shunt is important.  If the exact battery capacity (Amp-Hours) is not input correctly, then the SOC will be off.  It is quite possible that the internal battery BMS has a slightly different SOC programmed into it.  Also, if you start paralleling LiFePO4 batteries, the SOC of each battery will be different, since it is unlikely the cells are exactly the same.  These differences are quite small, but could be what you saw.  It is also possible that the Renogy (I deal Victron only so can't say) might have a different algorithm than Victron, or the battery capacity might have been slightly different.  In any case, the isolated vs non-isolated charges didn't likely cause any difference.  I have designed many of Victron systems, but only a few with DC-DC chargers, but never found a problem.

-Rick N.

1 hour ago, CAT Stephen said:

@waterskier_1,

I'm replying to your second question:

• "I am not aware of any "integration with your iOS or Android devices" of the referenced Victron products.  They are only Bluetooth (BT) as far as I know.  I may not be aware of iOS or Android application that integrate inverters, MPPT controllers, batteries, and DC-DC converters, so please enlighten me (us)."

Yes you are correct.  The context is comparison between the Renogy DC to DC charger and the Victron Energy Orion Smart Isolated DC to DC chargers.

 

And your third question:

• If the OP already has Victron Products; Inverter-MultiPlus, MPPT Solar Controller and Victron Shunt along with a GX device (e.g. Cebro or CCGX) then and wishes to integrate all with a DC-DC controller, the only option I am aware of is the newly announced "Smart Buck-Boost 50A (700W) non-isolated DC-DC Charger 12/12-50".  This DC-DC Charger (Controller) has VE.direct buss that will integrate with other Victron products and will display the actual charger output on the GX device. 

The Victron Energy Orion Smart Isolated DC to DC chargers utilize the charging profile that the end user configures to charge the target battery band as needed, thus there is no integration needed with the Cerbo GX.  

• An additional shunt can be included between the Victron Energy Orion Smart Isolated DC to DC charger negative output and the out electrical system target to measure the energy transferred.

Second Question:  Okay.  I don't know anything about Renogy, so don't know what they display.  I was thinking of integration like Victron does where you can see on a single screen, the inputs and outputs of the Shore Power, Inverter, Battery Charger, Solar, AC Loads, and DC Loads.  All the Victron DC-DC chargers allow you to see via Bluetooth is data related to that charger only.  It doesn't send that data anywhere, nor can it be retrieved for use (other than display).

Third Question: 

    Part 1.  You are correct, I would think any ones DC-DC charger would be able to be configured to charge the target battery.  You are also correct that Integration is not needed.  Many are perfectly fine with a Magnum Inverter, with it's own display, doing it's own thing, without knowledge of solar MPPT controllers on the system, which you can view with an individual BT app, but do their thing without knowing what the inverter is doing.  And then having a separate Shunt and Display for SOC, which neither the inverter or the MPPT controllers (or the DC-DC Charger) knows anything about.  For example, you can't set your Auto Gen Start (AGS) on a Magnum inverter to start/stop on an SOC value because, even if you added a shunt to the system, the Magnum inverter can't see it.  

    Part 2.  I'm not sure what the response here.  My intention was to notify that just last week Victron has released a new DC-DC Charger which is the first in its line of DC-DC Charges to integrate (that is to connect to a Cebro or other GX device) such that you can now see it on the Main Victron screen, see it's performance, and potentially control it's operation in conjunction with connected MPPT controllers and shunt provided SOC.  Again, this is not needed for things to work, and if you didn't already have a fully integrated Victron system, might be of little value other than it's higher current rating.

I'm not posting this to criticize you, but instead to let others know some of the sometimes more subtle aspects of designing a complete electrical system and my experience designing around Victron components. 

  -Rick N.  

2 hours ago, CAT Stephen said:

Hello Jim,

The first consideration for selecting a DC to DC charger is your alternator capacity.  If you purchase a DC to DC converter which, in parallel with your other alternator loads, exceeds the capacity of your alternator, your alternator can be severely damaged or destroyed.  You can obtain the capacity of your alternator by using your engine model and engine serial number then contacting your engine manufacturer.

The second consideration for selecting a DC to DC charger is your shunt use and your other feature needs:

- If a shunt used to measure your LiPO4 bank state of charge is planned for your use either currently or in the future, then your ONLY DC to DC charger option is an isolated DC to DC charger.  To the best of my current knowledge, Victron Energy is the only company that manufactures isolated DC to DC chargers at a reasonable price: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Orion-Tr-Smart-DC-DC-chargers-isolated-250-400W-EN.pdf

- If you are on a very constrained budget and never plan to use a shunt, Renogy DC to DC chargers provide the best value, but need to be manually switched on and off physically which is inconvenient: https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Battery-Batteries-Multi-stage-Charging/dp/B07Q4SVX3M/ref=sr_1_1?crid=U04CR0YL3EJU&keywords=renogy%2Bdc%2Bto%2Bdc%2Bcharger&qid=1699890028&sprefix=renogy%2BDC%2Bto%2B%2Caps%2C92&sr=8-1&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.f5122f16-c3e8-4386-bf32-63e904010ad0&th=1

- If you seek maximum flexibility and complete integration with your iOS or Android devices, The Victron Energy Orion Series Smart DC to DC isolated chargers are the flagship of the DC to DC charger industry, and are reasonably priced compared to other options except Renogy: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Orion-Tr-Smart-DC-DC-chargers-isolated-250-400W-EN.pdf

Alternator capacity, while important, should not be an issue if it wasn't an issue with the original Isolator (IRD or BIRD, Big Boy or Trombetta).  The original Isolator did not limit charging, but just connected both batteries together at the same time.  Now it is true that LiFePO4 batteries have a much lower internal resistance, which means they can draw current much faster than Lead Acid batteries.  At that is the problem with connecting them together.  Other than the extreme charge current, the alternator should be able to supply the requirements of the 12 volt side and charge the batteries, as long as the current is limited (and, ideally, the voltage is controlled such that you don't charge at 14.2-14.4 volts the alternator puts out all day long (while driving).  

Can you elaborate on your statement that ONLY option is isolated DC to DC charger if using LiFePO4 batteries?  I can't see the logic.  Both systems already share the same ground.  I will grant you that the LiFePO4 bank may have a shunt between the battery bank negative terminal and the physical ground (chassis) but that only serves to measure the electron flow.  

I am not aware of any "integration with your iOS or Android devices" of the referenced Victron products.  They are only Bluetooth (BT) as far as I know.  I may not be aware of iOS or Android application that integrate inverters, MPPT controllers, batteries, and DC-DC converters, so please enlighten me (us).

If the OP already has Victron Products; Inverter-MultiPlus, MPPT Solar Controller and Victron Shunt along with a GX device (e.g. Cebro or CCGX) then and wishes to integrate all with a DC-DC controller, the only option I am aware of is the newly announced "Smart Buck-Boost 50A (700W) non-isolated DC-DC Charger 12/12-50".  This DC-DC Charger (Controller) has VE.direct buss that will integrate with other Victron products and will display the actual charger output on the GX device.  Otherwise, with other Victron products, you have to use BT to see this.  The net current (inflow from the DC-DC Charger and outflow to coach at the battery shut is the only value shown.  For most, this is sufficient.  

  -Rick N.

I don't think the Nason switch would keep the control panel from lighting up.  Have you confirmed the connections to the back of the panel are secure?  I had that problem with my Dynasty where the control panel was mounted horizontally in the driver's left side panel.  Gravity and vibration would slowly cause the connector to come partially disconnected. 

-Rick N.

Just thinking out loud here, which may inspire someone to a solution.  The water tank pick-up tube extends almost all the way to the bottom of the tank, typically.  The weight of the water (head pressure) should not be significant to stop the pump.  I'm leaning to thinking there is a problem with the pickup tube in the tank.  If it compromised, like maybe a crack, which would allow air to enter after the water got below a certain level, the pump would start drawing air with the water and cause a similar symptom to that which you describe.  If the "crack" was vertical, starting from the level you notice the pump not working correctly, and extends downward, the lower the water level, the more of the crack exposed, and the more air would be sucked with the water, reducing flow and pressure.  I have never seen the actual construction of the pickup tube so I don't know if this hypothesis could even happen.  I've never even had occasion to look at how the pickup tube is connected to the outside world.  I know some fuel tanks you can remove the pickup tube from the tank.  Is this possible on the water tank?  I know clearance would be a problem.  What I'm thinking is if you could insert a new tube, even temporarily, into the tank and check operation of the water system, that may help isolate the problem.

I can't see how a leak in lines outside the tank would be affected by water level.

  -Rick N. 

The See Vision is an option that adds an interior camera (over the driver's seat) and controls accessed through the Aladdin system which allows you to view any of the four camera (backup, right and left side view on the mirrors, and interior) at any time.  You can lock on any camera (although when driving, the turn signals or reverse switch override the selection) or set them up to rotate between all four.  The "idea" was you could see what was going on around you (and, if in bed) inside the front area of the coach.  It is operated from either the front dash Aladdin or the rear bedroom Aladdin.

I don't the "Flip down exterior entertainment center" but my guess it is located in one of the passenger side bays (basement compartments).  It may be mounted to the ceiling, and flip down from there for use.

The optional solar panel was 100 Watt, and went to a solar controller that was connected to both the house and chassis (low output).  It was basically enough to maintain the supplied Lead Acid batteries.  According to the 2005 Dynasty Owners Manual, the controller is located "in the large pass-through bay".  

I wonder is the use of "inverter" in conjunction with the solar is really the "controller"?  The price would indicate only a solar panel and controller.  The Dynasty came with a 2000 Watt inverter.  My Executive came with a 3000 Watt inverter.  Neither manual states whether they were Modified Sine Wave (MSW) or Pure Sine Wave (PSW).  Mine has been replaced with a PSW so I'm guessing they were MSW.  

Do you have your Owners Manual?  It can be downloaded from https://www.monacocoach.com/service-and-repairs/  

  _Rick N.