JDCrow

24 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

@JDCrow This is WAY TOO LONG.  I admit that.  I tried to find your phone and was going to call you.  Please take time to read and understand...from your comments about not being an "electrician", I tried to explain the MOST PERPLEXING SYSTEM and the one that blows folks minds...even experienced MH owners.  

JD...from the top.  TWO MORE QUESTIONS...then if I am correct...then you will know WHERE TO LOOK.

You have a Gas Refrigerator.  The Refrigerator, when you are on SHORE, has a 10 A circuit breaker on the main panel. That is the HEATER circuit. The reason you have a Gas/Electric is to be able to boondock. The Heaters in the refrigerator ONLY WORK ON SHORE/Genny when you have AC Power.  UNLESS someone has blatently and unknowingly "REWIRED" then that is our CLUE.

Your HVAC units do NOT work off the Inverter.  They are also, as is your water heater, powered directly when you have Shore/Genny....so DID you try them or were they not working.  What you may not be clear on is how your AC outlets, inside near the sinks or the microwave work.

Power comes in from Shore (or Genny) directly to the Automatic Transfer Switch (the silver box) in your pictures. On the SHORE side, your MH and the ATS is protected from faulty voltage or open neutrals or low or high or whatever.  If the power is "defective", then your WatchDog protects it.  The Genny Power is very clean.  It does NOT need protection and your PowerDog is wired properly.  BUT....here is what you should know..

The AC power inside the MH (outlets and microwave) actually GOES THROUGH your Inverter/Charger or, in your case, the Victron. This confuses some folks until they sort of sit down and "noodle it out".  When you are on Shore or Genny, you have AC power going to the ATS.  When the Genny is running...bingo, the ATS switches automatically to GENNY.  Now....follow that power (mentally) from the ATS.  It goes to the Main panel.

NOW, there is a 30 Amp breaker for the Inverter (Victron) in the main panel. That powers the Victron. When on SHORE/Genny, the Victron's internal electronics (and ALL RV/MH inverters work this way) checks for INCOMING (from the 30 A) 120 VAC power.  The Victron has an internal Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS).  Like your Main ATS, it's NORMAL mode is to send power out.  Your Large ATS (downstream of the WatchDog) works like this....it ASSUMES Shore power.  When you trip or turn on the pedestal breaker, then the Main ATS has a circuit board.  Ordinarily, and not knowing the brand you have, there may or may NOT be...depends on the circuitry, a lag.  BUT, when the ATS measures voltage from the Genny....even when you are ON SHORE, it says.  GENNY is running.  MUST SWITCH TO GENNY POWER.  Therefore, when Genny is on, even on SHORE, your AC is coming from the Genny...which actually gives you less usable power.

OK....the internal ATS in your Victron works the SAME way.  The ATS is NORMALLY CLOSED....as in it is like a light switch.  it is "on" and passing power.  BUT, if the Victron does NOT see or measure 120 VAC, it automatically starts to INVERT (gives you 120 VAC from your batteries).  That internal ATS then is energized...and now the "Board" inside the Inverter is providing CLEAN AC power and that ATS is closed or entergized...so the power you have for the interior outlets and the Microwave comes from the Inverter or Inverted side of the Charger/Inverter.

From all you describe....there is a PROBLEM internal to your MAIN ATS.  When you said the refrigerator SWITCHED to GAS...that was the clue.  BUT, until I saw the setup, that was a guess.

YES, you have NO internal power to the Victron.  NOW, that is where it gets a bit weird.  If the Victron was working properly, then there was NO AC coming from the main breaker....and the Victron should have been in use...and you should have had 120 VAC to the interior outlets.

What we saw on the pictures was that the ATS was receiving power....but there was NO POWER or CURRENT being drawn or used.  What is really SPOOKY....is why.  Without knowing the brand and the internal circuitry of your ATS, we can only GUESS.  SOME ATS have TWO separate Contactors or Relays.  One is a Dual Pole...or it has Line 1 and Line 2.  The relay has three sets of contacts.  When the ATS is normally CLOSED....one set of contacts is closed and passing power.  Power comes in to the Normally CLOSED side...and it is the SHORE.  Then that flows out or is passed along via the CENTER CONTACT....to the main panel. When the Genny is running, that contactor CLOSES or is energized.  Then the OTHER set of contacts, from the Genny, is then passing power to the SAME CENTER CONTACT...and on to your Main panel.  Thus there are two SEPARATE circuits...both being switched at the same time.  L1 on one side and L2 on the other.  That is why it is called DUAL POLE.

There is ALSO another relay inside the ATS.  It is a SINGLE pole.  When BOTH relays or contactors are springloaded and closed...the Neutral, which is on the SINGLE POLE relay or contactor, is feeding the Netural from the Shore to the Main panel. When the Genny runs....BOTH Contactors or relays close...You switch the L1 & L2 Realy FIRST....then a few Microseconds later, the Neutral switches.  

MY BEST GUESS....  You have an ISSUE inside the MAIN ATS.  That is the ONLY explanation.  Either there are LOOSE wires on the 10 or 12 terminals (sometimes the GROUNDS are all on one) or there is a defect in the contactors or the PCB (controller).  What happened....one of the contactors failed or God ONLY knows what.

SO...the FIX...  Open the ATS.  (Power off and Genny CB up front OFF).  Tighten all the lugs or terminals.  If that was NOT the problem, then the 30 seconds ON and then turns off, means the control board on the ATS is bad.  There is NO WAY to test it...other than to have power (shore..) then turn off the pedestal breaker...and then turn on the genny.  If it works...great...but if it acts up again....get a NEW ATS.  The ESCO LPT50BRD is probably the most popular, but you can research here, and some are running other brands.

That's it....and I have had almost 24 hours to "noodle" over it or troubleshoot in my head.

NOW, yes, the Pedestal looked crappy.  The ONLY WAY it could have been a DOWNSTREAM issue (on the Pedestal) would have been if the CB was defective and it did NOT trip or such.  BUT, the fact that you saw voltage....that is highly unlikely.  Do the PM on the ATS.  Also pull the main panel off when power is off and tighten all the screws and lugs in the Main panel.  That is something that should be done every 3 - 4 years.

BUT, if it happens again...don't live with it....get a NEW ATS as you will do damage.

NOW, as to the Victron...it SHOULD have been supplying power to the Interior outlets....so your SHOULD have had power to them....BUT, since you were on SHORE, the WATCHDOG showed NO AMPS....  Therefore, you had NO ELECTRICAL POWER coming from the ATS....and that is how that works.

THINK ON THIS....  That is how it works...

Wow, many thanks! I’m am reading and re-reading. 

I just woke up and off to work, I’ll try and sort through your points. 
 

We are headed back up Sunday eve to diagnose and I’ll tear into the ATS. It would be a bummer as it’s only a few years old. It has to go then it will go. 
 

Thanks again everyone. 

Thanks again to John and Tom. When 2 smart guys say go this way, you should go. 
 

At the time I was putting this all together, I knew I should have thrown the Esco in, but thought the money saved could have gone elsewhere. Anyway, I ordered one up and when it gets here it will go in. 

19 minutes ago, JohnC3 said:

My spidy sense is saying ATS. Maybe thinking it's got power from the genny when it's not on???  That would give you no power to your Circuit panel. When a relay failed in my ats, my EMS thought I was on 30A because line2 was not being passed to the panel.

Good hunting,

John

I understand what you saying, but forgive my ignorance in asking how the watchdog (circuit protection) would read no Amps coming in when it’s before the ATS? 
 

Again my understanding of electrical could use a lot of improvements. I can’t wrap my head around a “backfeed” of electrical output from the Coach to the Ped through the watchdog when the Coach isn’t producing any power. 
 

I need to wrap my head around all this. Just when I thought I had a good grasp after the out of whack charging from DC/DC charger and Genny running at same time. 

37 minutes ago, TomV48 said:

 

Ok, just for confirmation.   Your HUGHES IS "BEFORE" the transfer switch, so it is not reading generator, or transfer switch output.   Right??

Have you encountered the problem when on generator??

Yes before transfer switch . This is brand new issue here at the park, so haven’t had time to fire up Gen. Will try that. When we leave we are going to unplug the Coach till it’s sorted. Given the history with the pedestal, I’m pretty confident its the problem 

6 minutes ago, waterskier_1 said:

Confirm you have 110VAC on each leg OUT of the watchdog.  If you do, you know things are good to that point.  Continue checking voltages through the transfer switch and to the main power panel. Of course, this testing would be done when you have no current draw.  

  - Rick N

Many thanks, I don’t have the time or tools with me at this point. Headed home this eve. We are going to unplug it and shut it all down till we come back. Right now we are using the coach as a “summer” home. It’s at the park for a few months as a getaway from work 

Ok I’ll try and elaborate a bit. I get Tom’s drift, and my thoughts on reading were exactly, open circuit. 
 

What was running in coach, TV, refer, and Victron in absorption/float. Of course the microwave, washer/dryer and phones charging.  So I had load in the Coach. 
 

I have a hard wired Watchdog, ahead of the go power transfer switch, and thus ahead of Genny.

I still have the intellitec installed as well, it wouldn’t goto to 50 amps while this was happening. It was 20 or 30c showing a 7 amp draw.
 

The whole coach would just go “dead” everything went off, fridge switched to gas then 1-2 mins it would all come back on. My Victron said no power coming in, so wasn’t worried to much, but then realized the watchdog wasn’t kicking off like it does when you hook up to a plug. So I turned on the app and waited, and sure enough, the Coach would die, and you saw the read out in the one pic. There was voltage, which the watchdog monitors, but no amps, so it wouldn’t kick off.  So no error codes because voltage is fine

Again, right now, we are issue free for a few hours. We are drawing the same amps as before. I’m going to talk with host and let them go through ped again and tighten/inspect 

Thanks all

2 minutes ago, cbr046 said:

It's Ohms Law.  If you have voltage and resistance (load) you must have current, but that's not to say just because your Watchdog is sensing voltage is isn't passing that voltage to the coach.  If there's a faulty neutral or ground that could prevent it from passing voltage to the coach.  Your Watchdog should have an indicator for this. 

I'd check voltage into the Watchdog and at the output of your Watchdog. 

Definitely fishy. 

- bob

 

Will do, it’s been fine the last 2 hours now, go figure 

Moderator edit

Based on the most recent post, the Vitron Multiplus II is a combination of an “autoformer, UPS, and also inverter/charger.  This is nit a conventional system as was originally thought. Title has been edited to reflect such.  End of edit.

Just rolled up to the coach last night and it had no power. So went outside and cycled  the 50amp at the Pedestal and it flipped back on. However, all night, and currently, the coach loses power for about 30 seconds and flips back on. I can see no input with my Victron, and my watchdog won’t kick off because it has voltage. But the watchdog also shows no amps. 

Any thoughts? I’m leaning towards the pedestal as it had an issue when we got here a few months ago. My watchdog wouldn’t let power in because of a fault. Host put in a new breaker and it was fine last time I was here. 

Anyway I was able to screen shot when there was no amps coming in on the watchdog.

I am no electrician, so go easy on me as I try convince the host I believe there is an issue in pedestal 

3 hours ago, jacwjames said:

I remember a post by Bob Nodine ~3-4 years ago, he did extensive work repairing the clear coat on his coach.  I tried to find it without success, maybe someone else can.  Bob Doesn't frequent the site much since selling his Diplomat. 

I've had to do some painting on my coach I AM NOT AN EXPERT but I'll try anything once.  In most cases I was able to terminate the painting & clear coat at a color change so it wasn't noticeable.  The only place I didn't do this the difference in clear coat was noticeable, trying to  blend the clear coat is tricky and takes a lot of practice.  I asked the staff at the paint store and the only thing they offered was a can of special clear coat that is suppose to "melt" into the old.  Didn't try that, maybe I should have.   When I get time I will probably repaint the area but not a priority right now. 

There are some “cutting” chemicals that most paint manufacturers sell that you put in and thin the clear to do a clear blend. It’s not easy, at all. I did a few when I owned an auto reconditioning shop. Results were always so/so. 

Yeah, that is clear coat flaking. 
 

You can pour over many threads here, most will point to the same outcome, repaint.

I’ve see a few YouTube videos with Xcote. Not sure how it will work, but maybe worth pursuing

Please report back anything you decide to do as this is an ongoing discussion with our older coaches 

49 minutes ago, monacowner said:

Greetings, We have issues with gelcoat flaking in various spots. Any advice on how to rectify is appreciated.

Got pics? 

16 minutes ago, Wrayj1 said:

J D,  you are correct.  There is a plethora of info on these social media forums, often offered by individuals who no nothing about the subject, but have an opinion.  Sadly this is true throughout media today, people wait daily for some talking head, making millions of $$$$ to tell them how and what to think.  The media outlets are making billions of $$$ by telling us what we want to hear.  I'm fearful that all this misinformation will have long-term negative consequences for for our future.  The Monacoers forum is full of helpful, accurate information offered by those who have experienced it.

I had an official with the state give me this phrase when I was applying for a driveway permit: 

Alternative Facts

We can’t just tell people they are wrong, or off base. It’s sad. This site is an island in the sea of stupid 

So I’ve been on Facebook for the market place, and fell into the rabbit hole of the groups. I’ve stayed off Facebook since it came out, didn’t want to waste the time.

Anyway, I’m flat amazed at the lack of knowledge/common sense, and flat out rude AH in these groups. 
 

Everyone here needs to be commended for their knowledge, overall civility and readiness to share their knowledge and experience.

Hats off to everyone 

Got a picture?

How hot is it? Coolant level? We had a 525 Cummins in one of our Semis and If the coolant was down even slightly, it would just shut off from a low level coolant. I had it happen to me coming down a Pass (Ochoco) and thought I was a goner. Barely found a place to get over before air ran out and locked her up. 

Sticky Turbo? Anyway to check the boost? 

32 minutes ago, RNMCBR said:

Maybe it’s for a surround sound speaker. That’s where mine is located.

Bumpin Subwoofer

2 hours ago, dl_racing427 said:

The trouble with natural gas, is you will likely lose that service in an extended widespread outage.
Propane generators use a LOT of fuel, and many people have found out you can't get those tanks filled in a crisis either.

I installed a 30kW diesel standby genset.  It has a base tank that holds around 140 gallons, and I have tanks with several hundred gallons more onsite.
And if it comes down to it, I can fill it with 5 gallon jugs if need be.
I also designed a way to disable it from inside the house during the night or when it's not needed.
We had a big storm shortly after I installed it, and power was out for 40 hours during a heat wave.
It ran 24 hours and used 14 gallons of diesel.  I'm very happy with that.

That’s a thought. I haven’t priced that set up. Do you use your diesel frequently? We gel here from cold and it can get waxy as well. 

59 minutes ago, Jeff H said:

Not to stay on topic but,

My 2006 diplomat has a 2-3" vertical flange on the top of the slide.  What happens with that?

I was thinking same. The above pic looks like the upper flange is shorter by 1” or so 

I can appreciate this! We are currently in the planning phase of a new home and new building for our business. Both will have propane/natural gas generators as backups. Not only for natural disasters, but I am beginning to worry about forced shutoffs due to power grid strains. 
 

Glad you are safe and sound through all that 

42 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Yep, it's a 'roundabout'!

Come to Bend, we are roundabout USA

16 minutes ago, FLynes said:

Not to get off topic, but it’s the nitnoy items that are nickel and dining me…redoing the carpet and hard flooring, fixing the sunk-in Corian stovetop, tires, shocks, trac bar, steering stabilizer, fluids & filters, new steps (that one was all me), exhaust from the cat back, and now exhaust gaskets. Thankfully I’m handy with a wrench, but my back and knees aren’t what they were 30 years ago. Many of these issues are fixing P.O. neglect, and I’m hoping I’m at the end of that road.

I hear ya! I’d be sunk if I couldn’t do most of this on my own. In fact only reason I thought of an older coach is the fact I could work on it. 
 

And go off topic if you want. It’s my thread and I won’t throw a fit here r we ramble. I love to ramble 

15 minutes ago, Tom Cherry said:

One incident, does NOT a conclusion make, unless one is biased and dictatorial.....BUT...

We had a former member who was "VERY OF MEANS".  He purchased a "factory reconditioned" Newell and was within reasonable driving distance of the factory.  He kept it for a few years.  He said he rarely made one trip without having to take it back in and leave it for a while, supposedly under the reconditioned warranty....but usually wrote or charged a 4 digit (left of the decimal) amount to his credit card....and often the first digit was getting closer to making the repair a 5 digit number.  

He sold it and bought an new, soon to be orphaned,  2009 Camelot.  He kept it for many years and did a few things to it....added some upgrades.  He never had any major expenses....the most was a "Lost the Coolant recirculating pump on the Aquahot" and that was a $250 event that was fixed during the tune up at the ABQ Balloon Festival.  We camped with him a few times.

He DID expand his VFE (Vast Financial Empire) upon Full Time retirement....and finally traded in the Camelot and got a top end Newmar....the one about twice the MSRP as his Camelot....the Newell was 4 times that amount, say 10 years ago.  He is enjoying his Newmar and doesn't have to have a line of credit at a dealer or repair shop...

ONE NEVER KNOWS....

I believe it! I guess I was going off the price. My $30k Monaco Vs $2million Newell as the extremes of the cost spectrum.

7 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

Yeah, that would push you from 'Big problems' to 'Really Big problems' !

LOL, if you have that kinda money, a coach is the least of your problems for sure 

12 minutes ago, 96 EVO said:

WHAT!!!!!!

You own a Monaco, and don't have an unlimited budget 🤣??

It’s why we own Monacos. Unlimited budget would have pushed me to Newell

Got the old girl up to the lake. She’s set for the summer. Will have more projects this winter, but should have a new shop! 
 

Safe travels out there

My oldie had a carefree contraption.